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arguments against preschool? - Page 7

post #121 of 154
[QUOTE=Charles Baudelaire]One of the central purposes of school is to reinforce the norms of society. For specific information, see Pierce v. the Society of Sisters.[QUOTE]

And thank you for making my point. The norms of society have to be there to begin with in order for them to be reinforced. So school is a symptom and not the root of the problem.
post #122 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytolittlelilly
Maybe, *but* I'd be a lot more concerned about the time/opportunity for a one-on-one situation between the child and "friend or family member." That's part of the reason why I feel that danger of molestation from *teachers* seems to be over-blown here. I certainly don't remember being alone with any teacher until high school.

Totally anecdotal, again, but every woman I've ever gotten to know a bit has had some type of molestation or rape occur in her lifetime. Not that it never happens, but I don't ever remember anyone saying a teacher molested them. It was a mix of: brother, brother of a friend, boyfriend, stepdad, dad, babysitter - and these people, of course, were likely to have had access to these girls one-on-one.
I was molested by my elementary school janitor - not a teacher, but still someone who has access to the girls at school. I was never alone with a teacher, either, but it wouldn't have been difficult for a teacher to arrange that, if he'd been so inclined.

I also had a high school science teacher who had his hands all over the girls at every opportunity and regularly made inappropriate comments to us in class. I have no idea if he ever molested anybody further than that, as hell would have frozen over before I'd have been alone with him.
post #123 of 154
I only got halfway through this thread and I got stopped by the assertion that there are all these other great countries where parents have so much faith in their non-maternal childcare.

And it's gotta be a total coincidence that in all those countries, the birthrate is tanking, right?

So much confidence, people are just not having babies. That's CONFIDENCE. Booo yeah.
post #124 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by urklemama
I only got halfway through this thread and I got stopped by the assertion that there are all these other great countries where parents have so much faith in their non-maternal childcare.

And it's gotta be a total coincidence that in all those countries, the birthrate is tanking, right?

So much confidence, people are just not having babies. That's CONFIDENCE. Booo yeah.
There are a lot of other reasons why birth rates decline in countries. Most of them have nothing to do with quality of available childcare.
post #125 of 154
Saying no to preschool was right for our family. These were our reasons:

1. No one in our family has ever been to preschool. Hard to see a 'need' for something we've never needed before.

2. Our oldest son is profoundly gifted...was reading at the second grade level at age 3. We felt very, very strongly about his self-perceptions NOT revolving around his smartness. Keeping him home (and homeschooled) achieved this goal. He is now 9, and academically he is 3 years ahead of his public school peers. He's not a 'nerd' or a 'bookworm' or whatever label he might have worn. He is an activist, an athlete, a naturalist, and a boy who likes to read. I think it would have been hard for him to feel accepted and well-rounded in school.

3. Our second son has ADHD. We choose not to medicate him, and it was a scary choice. He couldn't tolerate Sunday school, or trips to the library, or family gatherings until he was almost 5. Now he's 7, and he can do anything he wants as long as he takes very frequent breaks. Instead of Ritalin, he has learned to self-evaluate regarding overstimulation, food issues, and needing to stay or go. I think this independence will benefit him for life. Also, he's two years 'ahead' academically.

4. I was a preschool teacher. I didn't want to hand my dc over to someone else, missing all the stuff that I think is really, really fun! 18 months to 5 years is a blast, IMO, and then we start the fun of homeschooling .

So my dc are 9, 7, 5, and 18 months. They are all friendly and 'socialized' in the community. They know how to share...there are 4 of them! They know how to stand in line...learned it at the post office. They have plenty of arts and crafts, singalongs and music, play dates and field trips. They are also outdoors for hours and hours every day, instead of in a classroom for hours.

In our case, preschool and elementary school have zero appeal.
post #126 of 154
You're right, setting up a culture that normalizes non-parental care wouldn't have any affect on the birthrate, oh nooooo. Nor would skyhigh taxation. Those things are totally independent of each other! AHAHAHHOOHAHAHAHA.
post #127 of 154
[QUOTE=lisalou][QUOTE=Charles Baudelaire]One of the central purposes of school is to reinforce the norms of society. For specific information, see Pierce v. the Society of Sisters.
Quote:

And thank you for making my point. The norms of society have to be there to begin with in order for them to be reinforced. So school is a symptom and not the root of the problem.

Lisa, you're too intelligent to be missing my point by mistake, so I am genuinely at a loss to figure out why you're consistently choosing to do so. Just to refresh our memory, here is what you originally said regarding the issue:

I guess it just seems that your posts seem to limit this social phenomena to school and seems to not take a whole host of issues into account which might lead one to believe that school in and of itself is not actually the issue.

to which I responded that school was the purpose of this thread and that school reinforces societal norms. I am locating the problem in school because school is the topic of this thread. Despite your rhetorical position, I'm sure you are, again, more than intelligent enough to realize that causation and correlation are not particularly easy matters to determine, particularly since the problems of school and society tend to be mutually reinforcing: society has problems that are reflected in and magnified by schools, which create their own problems for society, and round the mulberry bush we go.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.
post #128 of 154
I am sure you're also intelligent enough to see that what I'm talking about is the points you are making as a reason to not outside school someone are issues that have many layers and blaming school as being the reason why these issues exist is a fallacy. You aren't going to solve the problem of social hierarchies and queen bees by having everyone homeschool. As you so aptly pointed about my friend whose family was out of Pride and Prejudice minus a charming Mr. Darcy, social hierarchies have existed long before compulsory education.

And I am staying on topic by pointing out that social hierarchies have numerous causes school not being one of them since as you pointed out schools reinforce social hierarchies rather than cause them. I don't think it's fair to any parent to try to scare them with tales of their children being molested or becoming a stereotype out of a John Hughes film to convince them to homeschool. No more than it would to try to scare a parent about their child being behind or a social outcast if they don't send their kid to school.

I think everyone needs to do what is right for their child and for their child to learn. If your gut is telling you that preschool isn't right, then go for it. If your gut is telling you preschool is right for your child, go for that. We are all individuals and our children are too. There is no right way to educate someone or expose someone to new ideas and things because we all learn in different ways.
post #129 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou
I am sure you're also intelligent enough to see that what I'm talking about is the points you are making as a reason to not outside school someone are issues that have many layers and blaming school as being the reason why these issues exist is a fallacy.
School isn't the sole reason -- nor have I asserted it was.
Quote:
You aren't going to solve the problem of social hierarchies and queen bees by having everyone homeschool. As you so aptly pointed about my friend whose family was out of Pride and Prejudice minus a charming Mr. Darcy, social hierarchies have existed long before compulsory education.
And I am not going to solve the problem of world peace by being anti-war, but that doesn't mean I'm going to send my child to military school. And, to do my bit for peace on this planet, I would prefer that you not respond to me on this topic any more.
post #130 of 154
Boongirl, thank you for starting this thread as I hash out whether or not to send my 3 y.o. to preschool in the fall. (She's signed up b/c I wanted to have that option, but I am still not committed to it.)

There are some great book recs on p. 1 of the thread. Also, thanks to onlyzombiecat for the great links (p. 1) and to phatui5 for the link to Universal Preschool. Love it!

Just curious, boongirl, did you pull your dd out? What are your plans now?

And, if anyone wants to toss this one about with me: I just learned that DD's snack at preschool would be a juice box and a cookie (often store-bought). (The program is 2 mornings a week for 2 hours each.) DD has never had a juice box and it's not in my plan to ever buy her one. We also strictly limit her sugar intake and she doesn't get store-bought cookies. How crazy am I to think that the snack might be my deal breaker?? (This is not meant as a personal affront to those whose nutritional values differ from my own - it's just sort of a "thing" with me.)

Thanks again for the thread!
post #131 of 154
A little personal experience:
We (me and sibs) never went to pre-school and all the girls started school a year early, stayed with our class and graduated on track. Boys started when they were ready (with age group) and stayed on track and 1 graduated, 1 ged'd. We lived on a farm, about 15-20 min away from any town with no neighboors our age.

I don't see preschool as necessary at all. I don't plan on sending my kids to any. As long as they are getting some exposure to other people, then why bother?
post #132 of 154
My DD in preschool 2 hours a day 4 days a week and I make no applogies not do I think every child should be in one. My DD gets the speach and physical therapy she needs (in addition to at home and in private) I'm welcomed to stay anytime I want and she is thriving and loves it. Frankly there are things that they can work with her on there that we "can't" at home because eaither they have the supplies that are way out of our price range or to be honest they can (with me) help detect areas we might need to work on. Dealing with her Apraxia and motar issues is a full time job and I'm gratefull to the school shes in for the help its provided. Her preschool is an art and language enriched program that uses the The Reggio Emilia Approach and that seems to work well with her and we can use a similiar approach at home. She attends a priviate preschool recomended by her therpist but shes on scholorship and attends for free. There are 3 helpers plus the teacher per class and classes are capped at 8 students.

A little on the Reggio Emilia Approach
Quote:
"The curriculum is not child centered or teacher directed. The curriculum is child originated and teacher framed...We have given great care in selecting the term 'negotiated curriculum' instead of emergent or child centered curriculum. We propose that 'negotiated curriculum' better captures the constructive, continual and reciprocal relation among teachers, children and parents and better captures the negotiations among subject matter: representational media and the children's current knowledge."
Deanna
post #133 of 154
Why I am not putting my soon to be 4 yr old ds in preschool:

I love our time together
He loves our time together
I am more than capable and willing to teach him anything he needs to know for K
I feel like the general trend in the US is to pressure families to live a certain way, educate a certain way etc. I have also noticed the general trend is usually wrong.
Go with your gut, not what the rest of mainstream society says is right. Most of those people never even gave it a thought, they just did what they were told to do by everyone around them.
peace
post #134 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamapajama
Why I am not putting my soon to be 4 yr old ds in preschool:

I love our time together
He loves our time together
I am more than capable and willing to teach him anything he needs to know for K
I feel like the general trend in the US is to pressure families to live a certain way, educate a certain way etc. I have also noticed the general trend is usually wrong.
Go with your gut, not what the rest of mainstream society says is right. Most of those people never even gave it a thought, they just did what they were told to do by everyone around them.
peace
Sounds great to me!

I put my son in a 1 hr 2x per week "preschool" program through our affordable park district. It is low key and I felt I needed to do it because he has always been with me or a close relative. He also has not had a lot of socialization with little ones. His cousins and our neighbors are all older and he really shows an interest in older people , esp adults . I wanted him to get a bit more exposure to kids his age before we go to K (if we decide to do that - i am still on the fence about homeschooling) I do not think kids necessarily need preschool to prepare them for K academically. I have a very laid back approach and I think some of the elementary educators in my family feel I have not been working with ds enough in some ways. we have not memorized the alphabet and he gets numbers wrong a lot. We just do a lot of different activities surrounding life and our daily activities. I try to incorporate a learning experience any time I get a chance ! sorry for going on and on ...
post #135 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaE
Boongirl, thank you for starting this thread as I hash out whether or not to send my 3 y.o. to preschool in the fall. (She's signed up b/c I wanted to have that option, but I am still not committed to it.)


Just curious, boongirl, did you pull your dd out? What are your plans now
I did pull my girl out of preschool and she was really happy for a few weeks, did not even ask about it. Then, she said she missed the teacher but she did not want to go back. So, I said we might see Teacher J someday and we could say hi. We have both been happy and doing playdates once or twice a week and gardening a lot and going on walks with and without the gigantic dog. All is well. We considered Waldorf for next year as I was thinking of going back to work but now that I just discovered I am preg that is on the back burner. We will most likely just hang out for a while, maybe try a small group art class or music class, something I cannot do well on my own.

This is interesting. I went out with a moms group last night. I am new to it. The topic of preschool came up and one mama had tried waldorf, reggio and montessori for her now 4 year old and has decided to homeschool him now for preschool. I said why homeschool, why not just hang out, you don't need preschool. They all look at me like I am nuts. What do I mean, they ask. I said, did you go to preschool? Almost all answer no except those who's moms worked. I said see, you all did fine. If you don't work outside the home, you can provide anything a preschool does. Preschool is only better if you really want your child to be away from you. The discussion goes on but basically it never occured to them that preschool was optional. I think I really got them when I stated that I think I can stimulate my child more by letting her learn what she wants to learn with me rather than going with what a teacher chooses. I mentioned Emile by Rousseau.

Thanks for asking and resurrecting this thread! I recommend it sometimes. I learned so much!
post #136 of 154
boongirl
CONGRATS
that is very exciting you are expecting another babe! I am glad all is going well not doing preschool!
post #137 of 154
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaGjr
boongirl
CONGRATS
that is very exciting you are expecting another babe! I am glad all is going well not doing preschool!
Thanks! I am glad it is spring, thought, keeping her busy in the yard is awesome. Little nature loving homeschool, I could call our yard.
post #138 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by boongirl
Thanks! I am glad it is spring, thought, keeping her busy in the yard is awesome. Little nature loving homeschool, I could call our yard.
we planted some baby veggies in pots last weekend....and started a bunch of herbs by seed...we will see how they do...ds was very into this activity , wanted to put the seeds in and water..always fun! now ds is into seeing them grow...I have been doing this every year but this is the first year he seems interested! very exciting!
post #139 of 154
I think it just depends on the child. I mean there are some that wouldn't require preschool for any reason and then you have some that "need" it to help with their patient skills, sharing, listing, social, just to set there or even just to learn. My son honestly didn't need preschool but he was at Day Care anyways so i put him in Preschool because it was at the same daycare. He is very very smart and i honestly feel that Preschool played a hugh part in it!

I think Preschool is GREAT! I will be putting my daughter in it when she is old enough for SURE! It does no harm in it so why not. It's great and it's only 2 hours 2 times a week. BIG WOOP! I enjoy my time with my child also so just because i put her in Preschool doesn't mean i don't enjoy my time with her. I think it's good for our children to not ALWAYS be around their parents. I really do.
post #140 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaE
And, if anyone wants to toss this one about with me: I just learned that DD's snack at preschool would be a juice box and a cookie (often store-bought). (The program is 2 mornings a week for 2 hours each.) DD has never had a juice box and it's not in my plan to ever buy her one. We also strictly limit her sugar intake and she doesn't get store-bought cookies. How crazy am I to think that the snack might be my deal breaker??
Hadn't really thought about it....but my gut says, not crazy at all. It's a double-sugar whammy--a cookie and juice would give me a sugar buzz (and let down) and I'm way bigger than my dd! We've been pretty lucky in that our day care provider believes in fresh whole fruit, crackers, or cheese for snacks, and seems to stick with milk or water for drinks. We also provide some of her snacks, since dd got used to having her lunch box every day....now that she's over a year, we don't have to provide her food, but because she's used to it, we do send some (a lunch bag as a lovey??)

Hmm...if you otherwise really liked the preschool and wanted to send her, could you provide her snack?
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