Originally Posted by goodcents
I understand being so passionately anti circ, but there is an overtone here that scares people away. For myself, maybe I could have vocalized my concerns more, gathered more information, and presented it to my husband in a fashion that would have changed the outcome of our decision to circ.
But I felt so afraid of this forum, that I couldn't vocalize what I was facing. Begrudingly I headed to the relgious forum, where some of my questions were answered, but not all.
I don't want to fight - I don't want to be scary or to offend you ... I just want to explain it from the 'other side'. You can't put the blame for the lack of information which led to your son's circ on the passionate people here. Even if this forum wasn't as scary, you wouldn't have been able to ask the questions - it's against the rules. It would have been moved straight to the religious forum and still would have been answered the same way.
|So that said, maybe you can help more people later if there was a little bit of gentleness. Also, I am compelled to mention that coming from Western countries, especially the intergrated areas of the States, you grow up with freedom of religion, and the access to many cultures. Both of these caveats lend themselves to being comfortable with thinking outside of cultural or relgious norms. This is not so in many places around the world, including the country my husband is from.
I understand what you're saying and I respect that - but I don't think it's the answer for this particular forum. You have to make people think deeply, and sometimes nothing short of a shock or being affronted will do that. Like you said, it's SUCH an ingrained cultural thing, and a lot of people won't believe information if it's not confronting. They'll pass it off as 'weak'. It's hard to be gentle when you're giving facts about a procedure which is the opposite of gentle, especially when it's so accepted in that culture, imo. Having said that, it doesn't have to be an attack - it can be phrased more sensitively and I'll be more mindful in the future to do this. I know it's difficult to have ingrained cultural and religious practices challenged ... and people are more than welcome to make a 'support please' post here or in the religious forum, iirc (as long as it's not advocating circ). Perhaps that might work? What do others think? (asking genuinely here - not being snide! It can be hard to read tone on a computer screen). By asking for support only, you'll get the info you need, and you won't have the challenges from people on the other side of the fence.
I've never denied the fact that I think religous circumcision should be viewed just the same as cultural circumcision - I'm against all circumcision ... male, female, cultural, religious. Personally the only time I think it should ever be done is if there's a documented medical problem which doesn't respond to non-surgical intervention. They're just my opinions (but I know others share them
). Just because I don't think religion is a good enough reason to circumcise doesn't mean I'm a Nazi who wants all Jewish people killed (I've seen that accusation used MANY times here). Me saying I don't agree with religious circ isn't intended to be an attack. I know some mamas who circ for religious reasons understand that, but others don't. The mothers who disagree with me are the ones who would be very angry if the whole board was intactivist. I don't think by saying that I'm bashing religious mothers (whether they're Christian, Jewish or Muslim). To be honest, I think it's that kind of sentiment which can create a greater divide. Any time anybody says something about religious circ which questions, challenges, suggests it shouldn't be done, we're accused of bashing, being anti-Semitic, being ignorant and intolerant etc. I know there's a distinct 'us vs them' feel on the board between mamas who circ for religious reasons and those who are against it ... acknowledging it isn't bashing them.
Like I said - I'm just trying to explain to you how I feel ... I'm not trying to tell you I'm right and you're wrong, I'm not trying to persuade you that your feelings aren't valid (I think they are) ... I'm just trying to give you an explanation of why I feel the way I do.
|I think the answer is finding alternative interpretations of religious law and offering it to religious mothers as an alternative.
I truly wish this was the solution too. I honestly do - I think there's great merit in that approach. But the problem with that is that these 'sorts' of conversations are usually in the religious studies forum ... and any time an alternative to religious circumcision is given it's immediately discounted as rubbish by the mamas who choose to circ for religious reasons - anybody who suggests an alternative is told they're ignorant, uneducated, couldn't possibly understand, and to shut up
. The approach you suggested would work in this forum, but those discussions aren't allowed here. It's a real catch-22.
I respect that lots of people on MDC - both pro-circ and anti-circ - think religious circ should be left out of it, and RIC should be the target. I just disagree. Baby girls are exempt by law from religious circ, so it's my belief that baby boys should be given the same legal protection. The religious circ of baby girls was met with the same challenge, anger and passion when the first moves to abolish it were made. I was surprised to see that a few mamas on MDC support FGM for religious reasons ... but I honestly hope that one day - through education and advocacy - male circ will eventually be seen as the same as female circ. I know a lot of people reject this idea, and I understand the reasoning behind it.