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I just don't get this - Page 2

post #21 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloli
I totally agree, and I really like the idea of having anti-circ stickies in each forum. I wish the whole board, rather than just this forum, didn't allow advocacy of circumcision. But the minute the anti-cutting rules are spread to the whole board a lot of the Jewish and Muslim mamas will be furious. I'm actually really saddened by the prolific number of pro-circ comments I see at this board.
but skip the religious circ issue, and focus on ric. the religious mamas have no problem with doing that. i too am troubled here by the posts i see 'well, i circ'ed just for the pure power trip of cutting off part of my child's penis & i'm glad i did' posts (note: this is a purely theoretical example and not meant to parody any poster here!) i wish those into the cornfield with the 'i don't beat my child with anything but my hand' & 'i advocate ff because bfing is just gross' posts.

vax is a nfl & health issue, not an ap issue. so we have (we just got gently reprimanded- that's public enough, i can say that, it's not discussing, right?) got to be nice to everyone pro & anti & inbetween (fwiw i have no problems with that, even if i have gotten tetchier than i ought in the past with people i felt to have an agenda beyond honest discourse. it's not my call & i have apologized. ANYway...) i see a difference between that, & this.

is it possible we could make some headway here, since i have a hard time imagining advocating ric IN ANY WAY passing muster as acceptable AP practice? (gosh, i am trying not to break any UA rulez here; is asking if anyone thinks if we could get somewhere with this acceptable? esp since i am kind of- hint hint- asking puppy & cm what they think?) a petition thread? what would be the correct course of action? (i'd pm, but who? every person that frequents the forums plus cynthia & puppy & msmom? i really am trying to be compliant, edit away or ask me to if anything here crossed the line.)

i cannot see ric as a gray area, like 'cio' (where some people are saying if you set the screaming colicky baby down for two minutes to go to the bathroom because you are about to have a nervous breakdown you let the baby 'cio', & others- more sane others- reserve the term 'cio' for people whose plan of action is to purposely leave a baby to cry to 'teach' him/her something)- i see it as more like striking a child.

no one here (in my memory) has told a regretful parent who spanked their child who ran into the street, regrets it, & wants to learn better coping skills that they were terrible people. but even outside of 'gd' if you say, 'hey, i did it, my parents did it, & i don't see anything wrong with it!' you will get soundly thrashed, with board support. uh, metaphorically. i would like to see ric treated the same way.
post #22 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
Check out any of the "How Crunchy Are You?" threads.....You will see multiple posts of "We circed and would do it again!" Even MDCers are not immune to cultural bias.....although witht he tone of this community, you would think they would be


Tara

We circed and I would never do it again.

Its a hard guilt to live with, which is why I don't visit this forum much.



But, so that the frequent posters in this forum are better educated in educating others, please be mindful of how difficult it is for some mothers (and fathers) to surmount cultural issues. It can be even harder to surmount religious issues, as was in our case. Nto everyone is "strong". Not everyone is "eloquent" or equipped to "challenge the belief system."

I understand being so passionately anti circ, but there is an overtone here that scares people away. For myself, maybe I could have vocalized my concerns more, gathered more information, and presented it to my husband in a fashion that would have changed the outcome of our decision to circ.

But I felt so afraid of this forum, that I couldn't vocalize what I was facing. Begrudingly I headed to the relgious forum, where some of my questions were answered, but not all. In the end, I am not even sure if our circ was religiously neccessary (we are Muslim, and while Muslims default to Jewish law in this regard, I wasn't convinced it was a religious obligation for us. For Jewish people it is clear.....but that's another story).

So that said, maybe you can help more people later if there was a little bit of gentleness. Also, I am compelled to mention that coming from Western countries, especially the intergrated areas of the States, you grow up with freedom of religion, and the access to many cultures. Both of these caveats lend themselves to being comfortable with thinking outside of cultural or relgious norms. This is not so in many places around the world, including the country my husband is from.


Unsubscribing now since I don't want to fight with anyone.
post #23 of 48
I just want to add - right in this very thread there is bashing of religious mothers. I don't think that is the answer.

I think the answer is finding alternative interpretations of religious law and offering it to religious mothers as an alternative. This is a good example
post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcents
I just want to add - right in this very thread there is bashing of religious mothers. I don't think that is the answer.

I think the answer is finding alternative interpretations of religious law and offering it to religious mothers as an alternative.
I agree with this. Here is a website you might find interesting: www.jewsagainstcircumcision.com.
I also agree with TigerTail that we should concentrate on RIC and leave religious circ. out of it. We are already not allowed to discuss religious circ. on this board; we can extend the ban to the rest of MDC, except for religious studies.
post #25 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcents
I just want to add - right in this very thread there is bashing of religious mothers. I don't think that is the answer.

I think the answer is finding alternative interpretations of religious law and offering it to religious mothers as an alternative. This is a good example
it's bashing to acknowledge that some of my good friends here who circ for religious reasons (with whom i agree to disagree with on this one issue) would be wicked pissed off at a ban that included religious circ, which could be argued is not within the purview of mothering?

i agree that publicizing non-cutting alternative ceremonies is beneficial for those who are unaware of them; however, i don't think that the majority of mothers in this community doing it for legitimized-through centuries-of-tradition religious reasons (as opposed to illiterate & inaccurate wishful thinking about religions that not only do not specify circumcision, but prohibit it) are going to thank you for 'offering' them an alternative that they have already rejected (the religious mamas here include some way-smart cookies, & are not going to have a light bulb go off over their heads moment seeing the links.)
post #26 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcents
We circed and I would never do it again.

Its a hard guilt to live with, which is why I don't visit this forum much.



But, so that the frequent posters in this forum are better educated in educating others, please be mindful of how difficult it is for some mothers (and fathers) to surmount cultural issues. It can be even harder to surmount religious issues, as was in our case. Nto everyone is "strong". Not everyone is "eloquent" or equipped to "challenge the belief system."

I understand being so passionately anti circ, but there is an overtone here that scares people away. For myself, maybe I could have vocalized my concerns more, gathered more information, and presented it to my husband in a fashion that would have changed the outcome of our decision to circ.

But I felt so afraid of this forum, that I couldn't vocalize what I was facing. Begrudingly I headed to the relgious forum, where some of my questions were answered, but not all. In the end, I am not even sure if our circ was religiously neccessary (we are Muslim, and while Muslims default to Jewish law in this regard, I wasn't convinced it was a religious obligation for us. For Jewish people it is clear.....but that's another story).

So that said, maybe you can help more people later if there was a little bit of gentleness. Also, I am compelled to mention that coming from Western countries, especially the intergrated areas of the States, you grow up with freedom of religion, and the access to many cultures. Both of these caveats lend themselves to being comfortable with thinking outside of cultural or relgious norms. This is not so in many places around the world, including the country my husband is from.


Unsubscribing now since I don't want to fight with anyone.
This is why I cited the parents who said "I circed and would do it again!" and not "I circed and regret it." or even "I circed and am conflicted and want to learn more about it." Totally different situations. I have no idea why you took my post as not being "gentle", I certainly did not mean it that way, nor do I think it came across that way.

And as far as this forum being frightening....for anyone with an open mind, it should not be. Heck, there are even parents with kids with circumcision complications that come here for help....and they get it. No lectures, no "told ya so's" just a helping hand.

In my experience, this forum is just about as mild as you can get on the topic of circumcision....based on the "others" that I have seen on the net anyway(You know who you are )

I hope you are able to overcome your sensitivities on the topic enough so that you are able to feel comfortable here. There is no better advocate than someone who has BTDT.


Tara
post #27 of 48
All I'm going to say is that FGM is illegal no matter what the reason, and it is practiced for nearly identical reasons as male infant circumcision is here...and I believe all human beings are create equal and male and female children have an equal right to genital integrity regardless of the reasons used to justify the cutting.

Jen
post #28 of 48
i would rather have a ban on ric promotion & leave ritual circ out of it, than leave posters free to express satisfaction with ric and (still) continue to leave ritual circ of of it. like it or lump it, those are our (possible) choices, & we don't even know how possible. i'm trying to be realistic.
post #29 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail
it's bashing to acknowledge that some of my good friends here who circ for religious reasons (with whom i agree to disagree with on this one issue) would be wicked pissed off at a ban that included religious circ, which could be argued is not within the purview of mothering?

i agree that publicizing non-cutting alternative ceremonies is beneficial for those who are unaware of them; however, i don't think that the majority of mothers in this community doing it for legitimized-through centuries-of-tradition religious reasons (as opposed to illiterate & inaccurate wishful thinking about religions that not only do not specify circumcision, but prohibit it) are going to thank you for 'offering' them an alternative that they have already rejected (the religious mamas here include some way-smart cookies, & are not going to have a light bulb go off over their heads moment seeing the links.)

It is precisely this condescending overtone that chase mothers away from this forum. You (general you) can feel passionate without being rude. And I see alot of that here.

And you *general you* may not choose to see it that way, but I and a few other mothers here do. So if you fail to consider my viewpoint, you miss an opportunity to teach people about alternatives to RIC. Which is the point of this forum no?

I concur that there are many orthodox Jewish & Muslim women here that wouldn't consider various religious viewpoints, but there are other not-so-observant-questioning-women too. So could it hurt to have as part of your sticky "If you are considering relgious circ check out these alternative sites."? Probably not. And hell - who knows - you may even save a foreskin in the process



Calngavinsmom I didn't think your OP was not gentle. I quoted it because of your reference to cultural bias. I can take quite a bit of discussion board heat (check out my posts in w&p) so senstivity is not really my issue.

As far as this forum goes it is a "case against circ", so right away the title of it shuts down a certain amount of dialogue. I *understand* the name is what it is because this is an anti-circ board. I *understand* no religious debate is allowed. But the unintended consequences of that, I feel, mean opportunities to share alternative information are missed.
post #30 of 48
how was i condescending or rude? if anything, suggesting that we go to mamas who have been part of this site for the past six years and 'offer' them info as if they have never heard it in their lives is condescending. of course the links and info should be presented here for those who haven't seen them, it is part of our job as intactivists.

it is the suggestion that we 'offer' it to the majority of long-time posting religious mamas here as though they'd never they had never stumbled upon this forum before that i find condescending, personally. mere semantics- offer away. hey chava, amy, gonna take us up on it? had an epiphany? (you know i'm jk, right? although i can always hope. probably with as much luck as grandma waiting for our bris. brises? brisses? i know there's a hebrew plural out there somewhere. )

now i know i am skating on thin ice joking around in the circ forum, lol.
post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail
how was i condescending or rude? if anything, suggesting that we go to mamas who have been part of this site for the past six years and 'offer' them info as if they have never heard it in their lives is condescending. of course the links and info should be presented here for those who haven't seen them, it is part of our job as intactivists.

it is the suggestion that we 'offer' it to the majority of long-time posting religious mamas here as though they'd never they had never stumbled upon this forum before that i find condescending, personally. mere semantics- offer away. hey chava, amy, gonna take us up on it? had an epiphany? (you know i'm jk, right? although i can always hope. probably with as much luck as grandma waiting for our bris. brises? brisses? i know there's a hebrew plural out there somewhere. )

now i know i am skating on thin ice joking around in the circ forum, lol.
And what about the not-so-new-mamas? Are they not worthy? You don't feel offering them information is appropriate? And I am glad *you* have decided what information to share with older members.

I guess you have it all figured out Susey and you don't need any suggestions from anyone. I can't think of a better way to grow myself.
post #32 of 48
how 'bout you highlight the parts where i said (in both posts ) to PLEASE KEEP POSTING THE INFO FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN IT. sigh. good grief. that's me, no-growth keep-me-in-the-dark-like-a-mushroom suse. that's not condescending.

this is not getting us anywhere. can we get back to our strategery now?
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW
I wonder if we could all chip in together and buy a banner ad so that more people would see it. Just a thought.
It's cheaper (free) to put a link in your sig, like I did.
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcents
I understand being so passionately anti circ, but there is an overtone here that scares people away. For myself, maybe I could have vocalized my concerns more, gathered more information, and presented it to my husband in a fashion that would have changed the outcome of our decision to circ.

But I felt so afraid of this forum, that I couldn't vocalize what I was facing. Begrudingly I headed to the relgious forum, where some of my questions were answered, but not all.
I don't want to fight - I don't want to be scary or to offend you ... I just want to explain it from the 'other side'. You can't put the blame for the lack of information which led to your son's circ on the passionate people here. Even if this forum wasn't as scary, you wouldn't have been able to ask the questions - it's against the rules. It would have been moved straight to the religious forum and still would have been answered the same way.

Quote:
So that said, maybe you can help more people later if there was a little bit of gentleness. Also, I am compelled to mention that coming from Western countries, especially the intergrated areas of the States, you grow up with freedom of religion, and the access to many cultures. Both of these caveats lend themselves to being comfortable with thinking outside of cultural or relgious norms. This is not so in many places around the world, including the country my husband is from.
I understand what you're saying and I respect that - but I don't think it's the answer for this particular forum. You have to make people think deeply, and sometimes nothing short of a shock or being affronted will do that. Like you said, it's SUCH an ingrained cultural thing, and a lot of people won't believe information if it's not confronting. They'll pass it off as 'weak'. It's hard to be gentle when you're giving facts about a procedure which is the opposite of gentle, especially when it's so accepted in that culture, imo. Having said that, it doesn't have to be an attack - it can be phrased more sensitively and I'll be more mindful in the future to do this. I know it's difficult to have ingrained cultural and religious practices challenged ... and people are more than welcome to make a 'support please' post here or in the religious forum, iirc (as long as it's not advocating circ). Perhaps that might work? What do others think? (asking genuinely here - not being snide! It can be hard to read tone on a computer screen). By asking for support only, you'll get the info you need, and you won't have the challenges from people on the other side of the fence.

I've never denied the fact that I think religous circumcision should be viewed just the same as cultural circumcision - I'm against all circumcision ... male, female, cultural, religious. Personally the only time I think it should ever be done is if there's a documented medical problem which doesn't respond to non-surgical intervention. They're just my opinions (but I know others share them ). Just because I don't think religion is a good enough reason to circumcise doesn't mean I'm a Nazi who wants all Jewish people killed (I've seen that accusation used MANY times here). Me saying I don't agree with religious circ isn't intended to be an attack. I know some mamas who circ for religious reasons understand that, but others don't. The mothers who disagree with me are the ones who would be very angry if the whole board was intactivist. I don't think by saying that I'm bashing religious mothers (whether they're Christian, Jewish or Muslim). To be honest, I think it's that kind of sentiment which can create a greater divide. Any time anybody says something about religious circ which questions, challenges, suggests it shouldn't be done, we're accused of bashing, being anti-Semitic, being ignorant and intolerant etc. I know there's a distinct 'us vs them' feel on the board between mamas who circ for religious reasons and those who are against it ... acknowledging it isn't bashing them.

Like I said - I'm just trying to explain to you how I feel ... I'm not trying to tell you I'm right and you're wrong, I'm not trying to persuade you that your feelings aren't valid (I think they are) ... I'm just trying to give you an explanation of why I feel the way I do.
Quote:
I think the answer is finding alternative interpretations of religious law and offering it to religious mothers as an alternative.
I truly wish this was the solution too. I honestly do - I think there's great merit in that approach. But the problem with that is that these 'sorts' of conversations are usually in the religious studies forum ... and any time an alternative to religious circumcision is given it's immediately discounted as rubbish by the mamas who choose to circ for religious reasons - anybody who suggests an alternative is told they're ignorant, uneducated, couldn't possibly understand, and to shut up . The approach you suggested would work in this forum, but those discussions aren't allowed here. It's a real catch-22.

I respect that lots of people on MDC - both pro-circ and anti-circ - think religious circ should be left out of it, and RIC should be the target. I just disagree. Baby girls are exempt by law from religious circ, so it's my belief that baby boys should be given the same legal protection. The religious circ of baby girls was met with the same challenge, anger and passion when the first moves to abolish it were made. I was surprised to see that a few mamas on MDC support FGM for religious reasons ... but I honestly hope that one day - through education and advocacy - male circ will eventually be seen as the same as female circ. I know a lot of people reject this idea, and I understand the reasoning behind it.
post #35 of 48
I just had another good look through the 'religious discussion in this forum' sticky to see if it gave me any inspiration for ideas. I'll copy it over because it really is an eloquent explanation and it always makes things a lot clearer to me (I check it if I'm feeling like I'm 'treading the line'):
Quote:
Hello everyone,

Through the history of the Understanding Circumcision board we have had discussion of a religious nature arise on many occasions. While these discussion can be wonderfully informative they also can and do become very personal and offensive. At one point the debate and offensiveness practically enveloped the board which disrupted its entire purpose and resulted in turning people away from the forum. It was then that Peggy O'Mara stepped in to ask for such discussion to be discontinued. That was seen as a ban against discussion of religious circumcision which was not really the intention but was interpreted as such. Religious discussion stopped and the forum returned to a peaceful place of support and information for parents inclined toward or convinced in leaving their son intact.

When we opened the new board there were several comments about the "ban" on religious discussion in the Circumcision board. So we reviewed the issue again and revised the board description to allow room for religious discussion but asked for no debate of religious belief. As I wrote, "This board provides a healthy, peaceful place to discuss the pros and cons of medical circumcision. The intention of the board is to provide support to those who face pressure and disapproval from friends and relatives because of their decision not to circumcise. This is also a place to find out how to care for the intact penis. If you are entertaining either medical, religious, or just practical questions about circumcision, please feel free to participate. However, this is not a place to debate religious beliefs or to question the validity of another's personal choice regarding circumcision. It's a place for information and support."

Since then the board has progressively moved to a very heavy religious focus and is now becoming a concern. Though the moderator has called for an end to pointed religious criticism and debate this has in some cases been ignored and new religious-based threads continue to be raised.

In reading through the threads I have found it hard to determine the purpose for the sort of discussion raised. I have not seen a tremendous number of posts from parents of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faith come to the board for information or support in understanding circumcision as it relates to their faith's commandments. What I have seen is posts criticizing religious belief, debating it's validity. Yet I doubt that if a Jew or Muslim did ask for such information that the appropriate response would be to tell them their practices are "sick" or "barbaric". We would not allow such posting like that nor do I think such words would encourage anyone to ask anything else here.

On the other hand this forum is also not intended to be a place for the defense of religious circumcision. So it is neither appropriate for posts from those who have chosen ritual circ to come and expect support of their decision. The board is meant to support NOT circumcisizing. Though I hesitate to discourage anyone from posting in this forum, posts in defense of religion seem to only spark debate just as religiously criticial posts do. The content of the posts on this board will very cleary be against circumcision so it will not be a place that someone pro-circ should come if they perceive any anti-circ discussion to be an attack on their religion. However, if a post consists of a religious attack or offensive or innapropriate statement that post should be reported and the moderator or I will handle it according to our policies. A member should not step in to do so as is clearly stated in the User Conduct Rules in the Rules and Guidelines board.

The main intent of this board is to provide information, support, and encouragement for people who are making the decision or who have decided to not circumcise. This is a place for discussion of the medical and personal issues of intactness that exist or are presumed to exist. However, our many attempts at allowing religious discussion of circumcision have been difficult at best and in some cases harmful. So I ask that discussion of a religious nature be discontinued on this board.

If you are a parent seeking information related to your faith's teachings and want the support and encouragement of parents who have such advice to share and would like to understand and discuss the spiritual laws related to circumcision as they are presented and practiced in the faiths of the world you may take that discussion to the Spirituality board with respect, appreciation, and sincerity.

Let us please take this board back to providing a safe place where parents of intact kids, or those interested in such, can share info, dispel misinformation, and talk about caring for intact boys. Thanks for your understanding and support in this matter and feel free to contact me at cynthiam@mothering.com or administrator@mothering.com if you have any questions or concerns you'd like to discuss.
I totally understand why we can't discuss religious circ here - even though I wish we could. It would deteriorate quickly if it was allowed. Opposition to religious circ can be seen as an attack by mamas who choose it regardless of whether it was intended to be an attack or not.

Can someone clarify something for me please? Does this part:
Quote:
What I have seen is posts criticizing religious belief, debating it's validity.
mean you're not allowed to say you disagree with religious circ? Because inherent in that statement is the idea that you don't think the arguments for it are valid.
post #36 of 48
Yeah, in GC's case, that thing would have to "go directly to Rel Studies, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars."

"Nooooo! Anywhere but the abyss we call Rel Studies!"

I'd seen you, Ms. Goodcents, posting awhile ago that you were going to have to have it done for religious reasons, and while I wanted to say something, I was a little afraid of getting scorched again, having just come off the recent Religious Circ Thread that Shall Live in Infamy.

Plus, you rock my socks and you're more intimidating than you think you are. Just didn't seem worth getting into a flamewar, losing a kickass MDC ally over, when the circ itself appeared inevitable anyway.

But I feel terrible now for not saying something that might have helped (whatever that woulda been! I don't know!) -- because I could tell that you sounded unsure and uncomfortable with the notion. It's just not that easy to bridge that gap, you know?

I guess there's a certain amount of trepidation on both sides-- and unluckily, with religious circ, the only anti-circ folks who openly come out against it are often the "less tactful" sort (I include myself there : ) so you don't get to hear the "gentler" voices of moderation, who are silently peeking round the corner.

If that makes any sense.

Anyway, for what little that all is worth. Peace.
post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by boingo82
It's cheaper (free) to put a link in your sig, like I did.
yes, boingo, like my new homemade one? (i cobbled it together after an a hour trying to make one of sunflower's little banners work; i am just technically lame. so i went with low-tech. it's a florida inside joke, but i think it is pretty self-explanatory. but if you are dying of curiosity, here: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=25741293
oh- & don't try to figure out what the scarecrow has to do with circ, i just liked it & needed a change. )

ps thanks, caloli, for finding that & posting it. a BIT more clarity (does it mean that the folks in the 'crunchy' type threads are violating the UA by posting their no-regrets, non-religious circ info or not? i am uncomfortable hitting 'report bad post' on stuff i'm not certain about- the only ones i've done have been, like, 'come to my teen sex website, XXX' . but if i am definately supposed to, i will try to start doing so. interpretation can be so difficult.)

should we start a thread, or move the pertinent parts (i am so sorry, OP!) in questions & suggestions, with a link to this forum? i am no good at committee-type stuff, & having difficulty even phrasing the relevant questions without thirty-five extraneous paragraphs.
post #38 of 48
Plus, you rock my socks and you're more intimidating than you think you are. Just didn't seem worth getting into a flamewar, losing a kickass MDC ally over, when the circ itself appeared inevitable anyway.



I've seen your posts too. I am actually quite surprised you'd be afraid to post anywhere, goodcents. Intimidating? Damn gurl, you're ferocious!
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by DahliaRW
I wonder if we could all chip in together and buy a banner ad so that more people would see it. Just a thought.

Does anyone know how much a banner is??
post #40 of 48
i've pm'd lala, i am curious.
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