When Decluttering Stresses Your Child....?

[alsoSarah]

I've been trying to declutter lately, a little bit at a time. Not ruthlessly, or anything, but enough to help me cope....

Ds (age 4 1/2) seems stressed out by this.

When he was younger, I used to regularly go through his toys and purge them when he wasn't around. I only got rid of things that he'd outgrown or never played with for whatever reason, and he never seemed to miss the stuff that "disappeared."

I figured that, since he's older now, it would be better for him to be a part of the purging process.
Recently, I've been talking with him in an upbeat, sharing-what-we-have sort of way about donating things that he doesn't use, so that other children who don't have many toys can use them.... just like he knows that we donate other things.

During these theoretical conversations, he is very on board with the idea,
but when I ask him to help me choose some things to get rid of, he gets almost panicky. He suddenly swears that he plays with every toy that he has, every day of his life!

Even when there is no decluttering going on, he'll sometimes hold up a toy, and ask if we're going to keep it. When I say yes, that we will not get rid of toys that are his favorites, and that he plays with a lot, he then asks if we will "never, ever, ever" get rid of it.... So, you can tell that it's on his mind a lot. I feel guilty about that.

He shows major packrattiness, too: he even consistently hates to throw out the *packaging* from toys (especially if there's an image on the box of the toy therein), and has a great sentimental attachment to *every* piece of paper that he's used, even if it has but one short, crayoned line on it, and he has no idea what the line was once meant to represent....


Oh, and, broken toys? You guessed it: they, too, are a matter of life and death.

Is this a phase?
Or, is just it a manifestation of who he is?
How can I handle this, so that no one goes insane?
Should I go back to doing all of the purging by myself?
(I thought that might be disrepectful of me, now that he is older, but he may just not be ready.... Besides, dp asked long ago that I do any purging when *he's* not around--- he says that it makes him anxious and miserable, but that he never misses the stuff, once it's gone, and he likes the end result.)
Should I give up on purging anything of ds'?

I must balance my need to have a house that doesn't make me *literally* crazy-feeling, with ds' rights and feelings.

Background:
I find that, for me, clutter and mess really exacerbate depression, and make me feel overwhelmed and hopeless, and weirdly, freakishly irritable, too.
It's not so much about "clean," (Dusting? What's that), but about having a place for things, and having them put away when no one's using them. It creates what feels like "room to breathe," for me.

My dh, OTOH, tends to feel most secure when closely surrounded by "stuff." He hates to get rid of things, preferring to keep them for a "might be able to use it at some point" scenario. He likes to collect things and display them; I love bare horizontal spaces, and the sight of a lot of objects out in the open stresses me out.

Please advise, mamas!
I want to respect ds, while still creating a home that feels like home to me!

TIA,
alsoSarah

[Allie2]

I have a similar problem with my dd. We now purge and she has to donate one for every three she keeps. It gave her control of the situation and I just direct "traffic" when we clean the playroom. She'll say, "I NEEEEED to keep this one too." and I'll respond, "Ok! That's three things you're keeping, now find one you don't like as much to give to a needy little girl." It works well most of the time. HTH

[alsoSarah]

Thanks for sharing your solution, Allie2!

alsoSarah

[MOM2ANSLEY]

I have found that it works much better when I purge while dd is not around...she is 3. If she does not need it she wants me to keep it for "the next baby"....and then I doubt myself and wonder if I do need it for later...so I try to work when she naps, etc.

[freestyler]

I think the majority of young children are pack rats; it must just be biological. Mine certainly are, especially my first child, an 8-yr-old girl. She would willingly hang onto anything --ANYTHING-- that came her way! To a point, I let her, but sometimes I'll just put my foot down. "No, you cannot keep this packaging material, because it will just clutter up the house." I'm like you, I NEED clean surfaces, not as in dusted and everything, but as in free of clutter. I let my kids know that I hate clutter and they are expected not to clutter all of our living spaces with junk. They have spaces for their stuff and the stuff is expected to be returned there when finished with.

As for decluttering, I do it when my kids are not home. I just go through all the rooms and toss stuff, especially toys that have not seen the light of day in over six months (unless there's compelling reason to keep them.) My kids flip out if they think I'm throwing out ANYTHING, even empty jars from the kitchen ("but I could use it to catch bugs in!" etc), and I could never save enough to satisfy them. Just the sight of those big contractor clean-up bags stresses them out! So when they're all gone with Daddy on Saturday morning, sometimes I'll just purge. And yes, I'm guilty of throwing out stuff they would never willingly part with if they SAW it, but you know what? They have never, ever missed one single item. Never. I'm not kidding. For the 10- and under set, out of sight is usually out of mind. Most kids under the age of 6 will not miss anything you toss in their absence, if it's stuff they are not actively playing with. If I were you I would NOT feel guilty about tossing whatever you need to to reach equilibrium.

If I kept every scrap of paper, every manilla envelope, every empty jar, broken toys, stuffed animal, doll, board game, and so on, our house would look like the cluttered mess I grew up in with my mom who was and is the worst packrat known to mankind. I want my kids to learn what it's like to grow up without clutter! It's nice! When they're around ten, I want them to start learning to sort their own stuff and discern what's necessary to keep, but for the moment, it's faster and less painless to do it myself. I LOVE to toss stuff. My DH hates throwing out stuff too, he's like the kids. Which is why they ALL have to be gone when I have a house purging session, LOL! By the way, I'm a sucker for "sentimental" stuff----I tend to keep ALL their clothes (sorted into bins) and everything each child writes. And photos. I have 18 albums so far, gasp. Stuff that they did not wear or create, I have an easier time throwing out or donating or selling.

[KaraBoo]

I have this issue as well. What if you simply organized instead of getting rid of her stuff? I'm trying this right now. We're getting bins from IKEA and labelling them and putting stuff away in the closets or in stacks. Much easier for her to keep track of her stuff and for me not be overwhelmed when it comes time to clean up. (We're just starting this so I'll check back and let you know how it's going!)

[tiffani]

My husband remembers feeling very attached to items as a kid -- if they were a part of his world, however insignificant they were, he would worry about them when they were 'cast out'. My son is the same way with most things -- even when he's done eating he says "I'm savin' this for later" and we say ok and then chuck it when he isn't looking. He always tells the waitstaff at restaurants that he's saving the tiniest smudge or crumb of food and they look at me like "did you want me to wrap this up?" and I just quietly say no -- he never asks for his food later, he just feels better saying he'll save it. Sometimes he even agrees to "save it" in the garbage or in dad's belly.

My advice though, is that if you do decide to purge when he isn't around, if you get rid of something that has a "partner", make sure you get the partner too, because that's the only time a kid will remember and ask for anything -- mostly it is "out of sight, out of mind", but if you get rid of Mike Wyzowski, make sure Sully and Mr. Waternoose go too!! Once or twice one of my kids has said "hey, where's that XXX?" and I just say "I don't know." and that's the end of it. It's not remotely honest or respectful, but my kids are panicked by the idea of getting rid of anything, and I'm not going to guilt them into doing it by talking about all the less fortunate boys and girls out there -- at 4 and 6 they just aren't terribly altruistic and I think it's totally developmentally normal. Some kids seem to be, and that's great, but kids are all so different it doesn't do any good to expect them to exhibit grown-up tendencies when they're little.

[Ceili]

My parents used to go through our rooms with us when we were kids and sort things to give away, throw away, etc. Instead of getting rid of the things immediately, they went into "transitional storage", which meant they were boxed or bagged up and put in the garage or somewhere out of sight. This allowed for us to see if there was anything in there that we really missed and gave us a chance to reclain any lost treasures, provided we could remember what they were. After a few weeks the boxes and bags were moved on to their new homes (usually without mention).

[freestyler]

For decluttering, check out the Don Aslett books: Clutter's Last Stand, Lose 200 Lbs In One Weekend, Not for Packrats Only, and a couple of others. They are absolutely life-changing. He is brilliant when it comes to organizing and decluttering. Love the guy!!

[OakBerry]

I have this issue with my ds, who is 3.5. He collects rocks, sticks, beach shells, you name it, and gets mad as heck if you get rid of anything. He has a good memory too, so that makes it harder.
It's easier for me to declutter while he's sleeping, other wise he freaks out and starts hiding/hoarding everything. I store the stuff for a while and if he really is asking or upset about a certain object I will bring it back out. The rest of the stuff gets forgotten, and donated.

[AmyAngel]

I'm a "keeper". I think there must be some genetic component to it - my mom, aunts and grandma (on the OTHER side!) are all "keepers" as well. We spent the past weekend cleaning out two closets and one room (that had sort of become one gigantic closet) at my moms house, and took 3 truckloads of trash to the dump and 2 loads to Goodwill. You know those brochures they have in the front of restaurants and at welcome centers about touristy locations? My mom must have had 10 large trash bags worth of these, and I KNOW there are at least 2 more large boxes of these elsewhere in her house.

I found some boxes of my stuff there, that I literally have not seen in 4 years. One contained a few things I want to keep for my portfolio (I'm a graphic designer), but the rest I REALLY wish had been thrown away without me knowing about it. I CANNOT get rid of this stuff, art supplies from college that I MIGHT use again, magazines with an article I liked, stuff I used to collect but don't anymore. I could put it on Ebay! (But I probably will never have time to do that.) I could use this! (But I'll forget where I put it.) I put a bunch of stuff in the "yard sale" box, but there is still a ton of stuff there I just can't bring myself to throw or give away. I'm packing to move, and I've already got two boxes that are basically just "junk drawer" stuff.

It is impossible for me to ever get rid of a book. I can sometimes bring myself to donate them to the church library (I guess because I then still have access to them), but I can't get rid of them otherwise. I've packed ten boxes so far and 8 are books.

If it really stresses your kid out, maybe doing it (carefully) without his knowledge is best, at least for now. I have to have my sister help me with this stuff. Her favorite show is "Clean Sweep" where they go through a room in someone's house and get rid of most of their stuff. She loves it, I can't even watch it. If they tried to Clean Sweep my room I'd be sobbing the entire time, or go postal on them!

This is something I'm really struggling with right now, as I get ready to move into a TINY new home.

[beanma]

Originally Posted by Ceili

My parents used to go through our rooms with us when we were kids and sort things to give away, throw away, etc. Instead of getting rid of the things immediately, they went into "transitional storage", which meant they were boxed or bagged up and put in the garage or somewhere out of sight. This allowed for us to see if there was anything in there that we really missed and gave us a chance to reclain any lost treasures, provided we could remember what they were. After a few weeks the boxes and bags were moved on to their new homes (usually without mention).

this is what i've done the few times i've done it. i asked dd1 to help me pick some things to donate and then when she was panicky about it i told her we'd just put them in a storage box in the basement for a while (like months in our case) and if the girls didn't need them then we could take them to the thrift store. if they decided they wanted one of the toys back we could always go get it, but out of sight out of mind. they feel reassured that they're not going anywhere right away. don't think it would work if they could still see the box, though.

hth

[RubyWild]

I pull out unused, old, too-young, toys from my Dd's stuff every few months. I store it for 6 months and then get rid of it if she doesn't ask for it. She has only ever asked about one thing, and that was after seeing it in a photo.

I do it this way because my Dd completely freaks at the idea of getting rid of anything whatsoever.

[LeAnnie]

We deal with this issue too. I'm a decluttering devotee and dd is 4 yrs old and a collector. Requests to remove or throw out items always end in an emotional 'no'. It's a control issue. I do take things to purgatory or trash periodically. Dd does remember but seems to accept it when I admit removing them. If she asks to have an item back or get another one, I'll agree to a shopping trip, but then she quickly forgets or moves on to something else.
There are one or two rooms in the house that are clutter-free zones (no one can ditch there stuff there)
Sometimes we need to acknowledge that a need we have is our own and not necessarily a need of other family members, especially children who are naturally spontaneous and explorers. When it gets to me, I try to put aside the need and replace it with a stress reliever like chocolate or a long walk outside-or both!

[Slabobbin]

Oh my goodness, I could have written the OP word.for.word.

My son is four and a half and he is the same way. I always thought it was my obscessive compulsive disorder and that I was really warping him by my constant decluttering. You have no idea how much better it makes me feel to know that there are others out there like me and like my son.

When I get rid of things without him knowing he asks where they are and then is heartbroken when I tell him it is gone. I just can't do it.

My new thing is to ask him if he wants me to sell it on ebay and put the money towards something he really wants.

[AAK]

just glad I'm not alone! Thanks for the thread.

Amy

[Satori]

My dd is the same way and it makes it hard on ME, she's a major packrat and wants to keep everything right down to scratch paper and old recepits. The only way I get any cleaning done is when she's NOT home or else its a major battle. Rarely does she miss anything gone missing.

[PennyRoo]

OP, I could have written your post. I am affected by clutter in the same way (I actually once broke out in hives upon entering someone's living room where every horizontal surface - including all the furniture- was covered with Disney stuffed animals - there must have been at least 800 of them!) and I desperately crave order and simplicity.

Reading about Feng Shui principles made me feel better about my clutter aversion - I like to think that people who react in this fashion to clutter and chaos are simply more sensitive to the energy blocks generated by lots of stuff, for example, shoved beneath a bed.

Anyhow, I struggle with wondering if I am being disrespectful to my DD and DH, who are both packrats. Nearly every weekend I take a bag to the Salvation Army. No one misses what is gone. (I, too, have a "transition" bag where things sit for a while until I am assured that nothing will truly be missed.) Although DD has a great memory I am very strategic about what I purge, so thus far I have not been busted (alright, except once - we had 2 child-size hand-me-down rolling bags and I took one to the Salv. Wouldn't you know the very next day DD wanted to play with the ONE that I had donated. I feigned ignorance about its whereabouts, and she never asked again.).

I am sure there are many who would find it disrespectful to our families to purge on the sly, but honestly, that's the only way I can do it. I know both DD and DH appreciate our clean, calm, orderly house and it would not be that way if I let all the crap accumulate.

[alsoSarah]

Thank you so, so much for all of your replies, Mamas!

It's nice to know that I'm nnot the only one dealing with this.

I think that for the time being, I will go back to decluttering in ds' absence, but I also plan to institute the idea of a holding time, before things are irrevocably gone, just in case.

If my dh can't stomach decluttering in his 30's, it's probably better that I not bring ds into it at 4 1/2....


alsoSarah

[boingo82]

I am going to sort of be a voice of dissent here - I am a recovering packrat myself, and speaking from that place, I think it can be a symptom of some other insecurity. When I was growing up it was almost a necessity, because we were very low-income and could not afford to buy stuff, so even a little piece of wire had to be saved in case I might need wire. Everything was stretched to the limit of usefulness.
It was very hard for me to get out of that mindset. I still have troubles getting rid of a lot of things (boxes, for one), but I can now get rid of magazines that I have read and old papers. I live in a small house and we have to declutter regularly to make it livable.
One thing that really struck me was something I read in a Flylady email. She said that being a packrat really means you do not trust your ability to provide for yourself.

Now obviously this does not translate directly to kids - but maybe it kind of does. I cannot speak for your son's reasons, but I think if I noticed things going missing all the time it would make me even clingier to the things I had. It reminds me of a friend of my mom's, she had very "clingy" kids. (Here at Mothering they would be called "attached".) If she went anywhere without them, to the store or anything, it was a total world-ending meltdown. So her solution was to distract the kids and then sneak out. And what was the result? Children who were more clingy and insecure because they did not know that their mother wouldn't disappear at any moment!!
I know that's kind of a broad analogy to draw to toys, but maybe your son needs to feel like this stuff is "his" and that it's not going to up and vanish. Maybe he clings to it harder because his stuff has been known to go missing before.

I liked the PP's suggestion about letting the child decide - but giving them a set number of things to keep and a set number to get away and letting them make their own priorities. And if they want to keep the broken junk toy and give away a nice one that Grandma just got them, it's OK because it is their possession, their decision.

Also, is there any way you can isolate the clutter to just his room in the meantiime? And just avoid that space if it stresses you out? I think there are ways to help him learn to declutter over time but that will be a process, and I don't think doing it behind his back will get you anywhere in the long run. He will feel insecure, you will be doing all the work yourself, and he will not learn to declutter on his own. He needs to feel secure that his possessions will not vaporize when he leaves the room, and he needs to be given the tools to declutter his own things.

I understand from your POV, getting totally stressed out at a cluttery messy house. I get that way too. I did back when I was a packrat also. I could not get rid of this stuff, but I could not be in my apartment with it either. It made me anxious and nervous but the idea of getting rid of it was worse. It was Flylady that booted me into gear and helped me find that I could enjoy my stuff (and LIFE!) more when I could use it. So I understand your stress but I also think I know how your son feels. I just really, really think that in the long run, continuing to get rid of his things behind his back will be very counter-productive.