GD isn't working and I'm fed up

[oceanbaby]

I can't take ds1's attitude anymore. We have been kind, gentle, patient, loving and have responded to his needs for attention and affection at all times. He is mean to his little brother, and he is rude to me and dh. He is so rude that I find myself wanting to smack him. I've never hit anybody in my life. I talk with him, I explain to him. Everything I ask him is met with "I don't know." I have tried to involve him in problem solving, but his answer is always "I don't know." I try to talk with him and he tells me to get away, tells me I'm being rude, yells at me, calls me stupid. He throws things when he's angry, will walk by ds2 and knock him over, will scream at the top of his lungs after we've told him it hurts our ears.

Dh would have been beaten senseless if he's spoken to his parents like this. And you know what? Dh is a wonderful, loving, compassionate, sensitive person, and he has a great relationship with his parents. I would never have seen the light of day or had a single toy left if I had spoken to my parents this way. And you know what? I am a loving, compassionate, sensitive person and have a wonderful relationship with my parents.

I just can't stand it anymore. I'm not capable of ignoring it. And I totally disagree with this approach anyway. I absolutely disagree that an almost 5yo should tell you that you're stupid and to get away from him when you explain for the fiftieth time that day not to grab from his younger brother. I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.

So I guess maybe I need to find another discussion group, because I am obviously a GD failure or non believer or whatever, but so far, it is just not working for me. I think I need a Gentle Punishment board, even though the idea of it makes me sick. This is not the way I wanted to parent. I really believed in GD, and I really believed that having showing ds respect and kindness since the day he was born would result in a respectful, kind person. But something's got to change around here.

[oceanbaby]

Of course as soon as I write this I turn around and he is playing with his little brother as sweetly as could be. It's like Jekyll and Hyde around here.

[Magella]

You are not a gd failure, or a failure of any kind.
It seems like some kids need limits that are more clear, talking a lot can be too much for them, too many choices is overwhelming, ignoring a behavior doesn't give them enough information about their behavior or other ways of behaving that are more effective or how their behavior affects others. I liked this article that has been posted here before, sort of about expanding the definition of positive parenting-not to include punishment, but to include being more firm and clear:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard_ass_mom.htm

Oh, and Jekyll and Hyde live here too. You are not alone.

[angela&avery]

Hi , first of all ...

Second of all ..... I SO HEAR YOU!!!!!

I understand just how you feel... and you know what??
I DONT think GD works all the time......

And, you are right..... you shouldnt have to listen to your child talk to you like that....

I, personally, have to draw the line at disrespect. I cant stand it and wont be treated like that by my child. Its just.not.okay.

As far as being GD..... you are. You can still insist (IMO) on respectfull talk and behavior and be GD. You can be firm without hitting or even yelling. You change your tone, etc etc.

I dont think GD is a certain set of rules of how to parent.... personally it means treating your child with respect, not yelling, namecalling, hitting, etc. But to me, it doesnt mean I cant be firm and it doesnt mean i cant enforce a time out or time in their own room for it. That may be a bit coercive... its not something I want to do for every little thing... but rudess and disrespect, to me, is where i draw the line....that may need to be so for you as well. I dont think there is anything wrong with that.

[Susan Kunkel]

I beleive that you can be gentle and set firm limits also.In my house we speak respectfully to our sons and each other. We model how we want to be spoken to. When my 4 year old barks out orders to me I model how I want to be talked to. He was yelling about lunch .I gave him a couple of choices he complained about both .He was then told to make his own lunch. I got out a plate then he made his own lunch. We had a happy peaceful lunch. Push ing down little brother resulted in having to show him an act of kindness or time out.
He choose to sing a song to his brother. I know many will disagree but you can take things away and still be loving gentle parent.
Susan

[Nurturing Mama]

I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through this. You're not a GD failure...it's just really, really difficult sometimes. I don't know if you're looking for advice or just needing to vent, so if you don't want advice, stop reading here...

To me, "bad" behavior indicates a child who is feeling bad. Have you been able to identify why he may being feeling bad, and needing to act out? Food allergies? Stress?

One thing that I do when my son is screaming at me and being rude is to tell him that I don't like to be treated that way AND give him more appropriate ways to express himself. For example, if my son called me stupid, I would say something like, "I can see that you're angry with me, but it's not okay to call me stupid. You can say you're angry, instead." I know coming from a punitive childhood myself that this seems really weak, but I think it is important to say it because it does register somewhere in their minds, even if they keep calling you stupid indefinitely.

Another "tool" I use is saying, "Try again." If my son walks up to me and says, "Mama, get me a drink!" I say "try again," and if he really wants a drink, he'll ask more politely. That's what I would have done in your friend's position, after the daughter finished yelling. IMO if your friend just stood there while her daughter yelled at her, and then made the sandwich, that isn't gentle discipline, it's permissive. Gentle discipline isn't allowing our kids to walk all over us, it's about guiding them. There is no way I would make a sandwich for someone who just screamed at me. (Come to think of it, when I was 8, I was making my own sandwiches.) If that example is typical of your friend's interactions with her daughter, then I'm not sure that what she's practicing is gentle discipline at all.

You may have already tried these things, but I couldn't read your post without offering help. I hope this gets easier for you. I know it's hard to put so much effort into raising children, only to have them treat you like crap.

Carrie

[angela&avery]

Originally Posted by sledg

You are not a gd failure, or a failure of any kind.
It seems like some kids need limits that are more clear, talking a lot can be too much for them, too many choices is overwhelming, ignoring a behavior doesn't give them enough information about their behavior or other ways of behaving that are more effective or how their behavior affects others. I liked this article that has been posted here before, sort of about expanding the definition of positive parenting-not to include punishment, but to include being more firm and clear:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard_ass_mom.htm

Oh, and Jekyll and Hyde live here too. You are not alone.

sledg, I love you, as always!!! what a great article... it spoke to me....

[Mizelenius]

Oh, geeze. I know where you are coming from. I SO know where you are coming from.

My BIL/SIL reprimand their children constantly. 95% of the time, I am not even sure why. It's just . . ."Mary. Mary! MARY!" But, guess what? "Mary" is one of the sweetest children I've ever met. So kind to my DD, so smart, so funny. And polite!

I keep asking DH where we went wrong. We do not seek a complacent, obedient child, but I can do without the screaming and demandingness from her.

[angela&avery]

Originally Posted by Nurturing Mama

Another "tool" I use is saying, "Try again." If my son walks up to me and says, "Mama, get me a drink!" I say "try again," and if he really wants a drink, he'll ask more politely.
Carrie

ya that.... i usually say "Excuse me? I dont think I heard you correctly.."

[Yoshua]

to me GD is not physically hurting your child or giving them over the top punishments.

I know that doesnt go with alot of the bored users, but if a child throws food and he is of an age to understand that normal people do not throw food, i do not think it is unacceptable to expect that child to pick the food up after himself.

I am not a 'big' believer in time outs, but when someone is causing physical harm to others and refuses to curb the behavior (this includes animals) I have no problem putting said child on a time out, 1 minute per year of life.

You may ask why? well, I believe in real world consequences and I also expect my children to obey and respect the law.... if you hurt someone in real life, you get put on a time out for alot longer than 20 minutes if you are 20 years old.



You can adjust yoru GD thinking, you don't NEED to be ok with allowing a child the run of the house/farm/garage/pets/siblings. There are limits in life, and to me, a child without limits won't understand that later.

I give respect to everyones own personal way of parenting, which includes HARDCORE GD that alot of the moms around here use, it is awesome when it works. But everyone is different, children included, and some children require more structure than others.


Modify, you don't have to do what doesn't work for ya.

/support

[maya44]

Oceanbaby,

I am sorry you are having such a hard time. I am going to use the example you gave of your friend to explain how I would GD this situation while still being a tough parent.

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.

I would have said in a quiet but very firm voice:

"Do not yell at me Ellie. That is very, very rude. I do not like being talked to that way and I expect you not to do it again. Here is a sandwhich for you."

So... I set a firm limit (no rude talking). I conveyed that the behavior was in no way ok. I conveyed that I expected that it would not happen again.

This is why my GD approach was different than your friend. I did not ignore the behavior and I made it clear it was not OK.

(I might wait until a more neutral time witha younger child or with a child whom I was asking to do something and that is what caused the fit).

What I did not do was punish. I did not refuse the sandwich or do anything else. That is why IMHO my approach is GD.

GD does not mean you don't set limits. It is more about how to enforce those limits.

[johub]

First of all the hugest hugs to you!

The behavior of my oldest child also has me deeply questioning and challenging my core beliefs on how to raise/discipline children.
I still believe in GD.
But I think I will be a firmer GD mama with my youngest than with my oldest.
My 13 year old is the "exception that proves the rule" I guess.
Because treathign her with respect has not earned her respect. She is extremely disrespectful to adults unless they do what she wants. (treat her like an equal). Treating her with kindness has not taught her to be kind.
Always giving reasons and explaining everything and avoiding being arbitrary has not taught her that Mom always has her best interests in heart and is to be trusted. It has not "given her nothing to rebel against".
Keeping open lines of communication and making sure no topic is "taboo" has not encouraged open communication about important things and prevented lying and deceit. SO sometimes, seeing these things in my oldest child, it makes me wonder if they didnt have it right in the olden days after all.
But then I realize that, temptation aside, and the desire to have well behaved children aside, it just isnt in me to be a firm authoritarian type.

But you can draw a firm line and still be gentle. I am still learning.
Perhaps I will have that balancing act mastered by the time my youngest is 18!
Hang in there.
There are quite a few of us who want to be gentle and STILL expect reasonably good behavior and respect from our children.

[Jish]

Oceanbaby, I know how you feel. I think you have to be realistic in what will work for you. If what you are doing now isn't working, if you are unhappy or if others in your family are unhappy, then it's time to make some changes. That's where we are in my family. We needed to reexamine what we were doing and make a new plan. I didn't change my entire philosophy, I am still GD though I'm not of the "non-coersive" sect. We are just revising what we expect and working on ways to ensure that we are working as a family unit to make a happy family.

I was tired of having to do everything in the house when my kids are perfectly capable of helping out in keeping things clean and running smoothly. However, after trying other things to get them to help and being met with whines and complaints when we explain what we want them to do and why we want them to help, we have decided to tie part of their allowance to their jobs. I sat down with them and they came up with ideas of how they can help around the house. We designed a chart of who will be responsible for which jobs everyday and what is expected with each job for it to be considered "done." It is now right there in front of them and they are doing a great job of taking care of things everyday. They haven't even asked about the money yet, but they are happy to see the things they've done marked off everyday.

Is this coersive? Sure, but I still consider it to be "gentle." It's their choice to decide whether to do the chore or not, but they know the consequence if they don't. If I were assigning random consequences or punishments when things weren't done and they didn't know what to expect, I would not consider that to be good discipline. I think that they need to be responsible for their own behavior, and make choices on how to behave, realizing that certain behaviors will elicit certain responses/consequences. From there, they have the choice of what to do, or how to behave. For instance, if your ds knocks over your youngest, perhaps that means that he needs to take a break in his bedroom for X amount of time. As long as you make this clear ahead of time and are consistent with it, then he knows that if he does the behavior and knocks over his sibling, he will have to take a break in his room. You choose the action, you choose the consequence. Adults live with this type of thinking everyday. I may choose to break the law and run a red light, but I know that the resulting consequence is that I might get pulled over and get a ticket. To me an expensive ticket isn't worth it. Driving would be a lot safer if the consequences were consistent and few people would run red lights if they were sure that they would be pulled over everytime. We would all learn pretty quickly not to do the undesired behavior.

I don't find this to be ungentle, as long as I'm compassionate and loving when enforcing the consequences, life runs smoothly and everyone in our family is happier. Our home is much more fun when we all know what is expected of us, consequences or not.

[Threefold]

Not much time, but I have moments when I write entreis like this in my journal!
Several wise friends pointed out last spring that it semed like my ds was crying out for limits and clear boundaries. So, we've set them. I try to be clear and firm, but not coercive and punative about it, and most of the time I'm sucessful. But its all a process and he and I both make mistakes along the way. Some maturity on his part, and clear expectations have helped us alot. Much thanks to this forum and Hold on to Your Kids.

[oceanbaby]

I can't thank you all enough for your replies. It is really what I needed to hear today. I've got some serious thinking to do, and dh and I need to talk about things.

I know for sure we will be taking a break from the tv. I have been noticing a direct correlation between watching tv and acting badly.

So for those of you who don't put up with the rude backtalk - what exactly do you do? I say to ds the things already mentioned - you can be angry but you may not call me stupid, excuse me, what did you say, etc. But he just continues on. If I leave the room he will follow me around yelling at me to listen to him. I say I'll listen to him when he stops yelling at me, but he just says I'm being rude, or just yells more. I have picked him up before and brought him into his/our room, but he certainly doesn't stay there.

[johub]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

I can't thank you all enough for your replies. It is really what I needed to hear today. I've got some serious thinking to do, and dh and I need to talk about things.

I know for sure we will be taking a break from the tv. I have been noticing a direct correlation between watching tv and acting badly.

So for those of you who don't put up with the rude backtalk - what exactly do you do? I say to ds the things already mentioned - you can be angry but you may not call me stupid, excuse me, what did you say, etc. But he just continues on. If I leave the room he will follow me around yelling at me to listen to him. I say I'll listen to him when he stops yelling at me, but he just says I'm being rude, or just yells more. I have picked him up before and brought him into his/our room, but he certainly doesn't stay there.

I'd close the door and hold the handle from the outside!
GO in your room yourself and LOCK the door. (or the bathroom)

[Magella]

oceanbaby, one thing I've learned after struggling with discipline for a long time is that no method of discipline is going to ensure that my children always behave the way I want them to behave. There's no magic pill.

That said, I think that what maya was getting at is that making your expectations very clear is very important but that kids will still sometimes not meet those expectations. However, kids do naturally want to please their parents-so making your expectations clear and telling them when they haven't met those expectations is very effective though maybe not immediately so. You might try The Secret of Parenting by Anthony Wolf. He explains how it can be very effective to simply say "I do not like to be talked to that way. I expect you not to do it again." and then stop talking about it-because to continue to discuss the behavior is to feed into it and will likely make it worse. Sometimes there comes a point when continuing to interact is not helpful to anyone. There was a time when one of my kids would just scream and rage and nothing I did helped-interacting in any way made it worse, and trying to go to another room so I could take a breather, or putting her in another room made it worse-so I would just stay in the room (or do what I needed to do anywhere else and she'd follow me) and be available and quiet and decide to not let it bother me. I could usually tell or she'd let me know when she was open to some comfort or to moving on to the next subject.

[heartmama]

I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.

Ds is 9, unschooled, always gd'd. My response:

Genuinely surprised but calm"It is not acceptable to yell at me when you ask for help. When you would like my help, please ask again with a kinder tone. If you don't want my help or plan to use that tone again, you can make the sandwich instead, and we can talk about this later. I am visiting with x now".

I have very clear personal boundaries. Full stop. Worth reading again, because it is the whole context of gd and parenting in general for me. My child does not define my personal boundaries. He learns how to respect them. And this is what he gets in return. He has tremendous freedom and autonomy, and can define his boundaries and know we will listen and respect him.

These aren't boundaries he learns because he is the child and I am the adult. That is authoritarian parenting, and that is different.

These are boudaries that any peer of mine (dh, neighbors, friends etc.) would understand were expected if they wanted my help and involvement.

Yes he is my child, and there are essentials he can count on me providing because that is my responsibility. And when he was little, he did not know how to act or speak or behave in a way that was respectful, so this was a learning process we went through together. If he were 2 or 3, I would have probably said "When we ask for help, we use this tone of voice. No yelling. Asking nicely makes others glad to help." And I would have made a sandwich regardless, since he was too small to do that for himself or fully understand anway.

This has worked extremely well for us. Ds is truly deep down respectful, yet outspoken, and when he is hurtful, really cares about making it right. He was not born that way, and as far as I can tell, has not suffered at all for having a mom who did not do as he asked until he could convey respect in how he spoke and acted. It has really helped him understand boundaries *for himself* and that is just, very cool.

So, I think you need to validate that you have a right to do this too. Your son isn't seeing the consequences of the way he treats you. It wouldn't be too strong to say that ds's day was dramatically affected by really hurtful behavior. Plans were cancelled and time was spent apart, not as a 'punishment', but definitely a consequence from me no longer being interested in doing x with him the way he was acting. The day resumed when he came to me with an open spirit to talk about what happened, and I sensed
in him that he wanted to try again. I did not demand that, but neither was I dishonestly sweet or concillatory until it was worth it to him to make amends for his hurtfulness.

Honestly, this is the same way it would go if *I* were hurtful. Would I want ds to act like nothing happened? Would I want him to make me a sandwich when I had yelled at him to do it? No, I don't. I don't ever want him to think he has to go along with someone who is being really disrespectful. I want him to say "You know what? Your tone is not acceptable. If you want my help, you can ask in a way that makes me want to help you". I don't know how to impart that if I am afraid to ask it for myself, kwim?

[Magella]

ITA with Heartmama (another eloquent and helpful post, btw). I've been learning also over the last few months to make my personal boundaries clear, to let my children know how their behaviors affect me. And you know, they get it. They understand. They want to be helpful, contributing members of this family. They want to do the right thing. So when I'm clear about how I feel and what I want, it helps them learn how to consider the feelings and needs of others.

For example, I have been known to say, after a frustrating incident with my child who behaved rudely, "no, I don't want to play right now. I felt frustrated and angry when you kept screaming at me, because I need to be spoken to respectfully. I try to speak to you respectfully, and I want you to speak to me respectfully. I feel very upset and I need some time to calm down."

Moms deserve respect too. Can I expect my child to always interact with me respectfully? No, of course not. But I can communicate in a respectful and effective way how disrespectful behavior affects me, and my child will learn. And this models a great thing for kids-communicating their needs and feelings and maintaining their boundaries.

[TripMom]

I so like the advice you have gotten so far -- eg. who ever said you couldn't be GD if you were firm?

My 3.5 yo can be so infuriating - yells at us, makes demands, is rude to our live-in nanny who is like family to us (this one KILLS me) - and I struggle daily with how to deal with it.

But - I'm hoping you'll get a poster with some tangible advice - I agree with be firm - but firm with what? We can firmly say you may not "yell" at me. But if he does it again - then what? Is this the appropriate point to insert some type of consequence? I've tried - "please go to your room until you can act more respectfully to me and your dad" -- but he won't go on his own? so then what - we carry him kicking and screaming up the stairs to his room? That doesn't seem GD . . . . I don't mean to hijack your post . . . but I think the issues are related . . . . once you are "firm" -- then what?