GD isn't working and I'm fed up - Page 2

[dillonandmarasmom]

Like TripMom said, then what...

I've been following this thread, as usual, Sledg has amazing advice! (Insert smilie with looove all around it!)

I wonder what advice is out there for the then whats...

My almost 3 year old is having a hard time with gd, too, so waiting for more great info...

[**guest**]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

ya that.... i usually say "Excuse me? I dont think I heard you correctly.."

this sounds condescending, while 'try again' can be said with a very compassionate, accepting attitude.

a

[heartmama]

Well, what would I do around anyone who was directing purposeful hurting behavior?

This is *very general advice*. I can't give specific advice without specifics, kwim? It will change depending on age, context etc. And this is for directly aggressive behavior from a child who is not listening to any boundaries or direction.

If a child is persisting with verbal attacks after I restated my boundaries, I will ask them to go to another room. If they refused, I would go to another room. When they are ready to stop, they can come talk to me about what happened ( I will state that calmly).

If a child is hitting and kicking they will go to a safe place, or they will be carried there. If they cannot stay there I will sit beside them and move them back to a safe place until they calm down or tire out. If I am the only other person in the house (there isn't another child to protect), I might go to a room instead. Again, they will know (because I will say) that when they stop, they can come to me and talk about what happened.

Naturally, the day will not resume as planned until he calmed down, and came to talk, and listen. We homeschool, so this is usually how it went, and it probably helped prevent many recurrences, since there was really all the time he needed to come around on his own and make an effort. I think that is very important. I think it had to come from him, that first step. I think if I was going to him and nagging him to make ammends, it made it about me, and it needed to be his decision to improve the day.

I made a concerted effort to put my attention on other projects around the house, because it did center me, and I think really gave him the freedom to take his time calming down and coming to me to talk. If I were hovering nearby and worrying and thinking about what just happened it could flame the fires of drama and emotion that were already running high.

When he did come to me I stopped whatever I was doing, really sat with him, really listened, stated my thoughts (that really hurt my feelings, when you said x to me) in a clear simple way, asked what could be done different next time. Told him I was very proud that he calmed down and was using words now to talk about what happened. Lots of hugs and then I usually suggested something I knew he would like (a walk, game, whatever) to get us out of the funk and show him how much he could change things for the better by talking instead of yelling or hitting.

I think he did learn, somewhere between 3 and 5 years old, that the person he hurt with aggressive and very rude behavior was not just me, but himself. I think he learned that when he acted that way, the person who was limited by it was him, more than me. I think he learned that
he had the power to made better choices. I think the clear difference his choices made were the motivation to do better next time.

**This is general advice**. Please just look it over for the spirit of the exhange. Depending on different situations, it will go differently, but the spirit of it was pretty consistent.

[Mizelenius]

heartmama, your post was very helpful! I am always at a loss over leaving the room because it seems anti-GD (like I'm abandoning DD). But, I also feel like I'm letting myself be a victim if I stay in the same room as a screaming child, esp. with my younger DD.

Thanks for helping me feel OK about that!

[heartmama]

No problem. If something felt wrong, I listened to that. It felt very wrong, on many levels, to sit and be a target for uncompromising aggression.

You know, ds was so attached. He was the ultimate velcro baby, high needs toddler, you name it. Learning that I was another person was a real process for him. He did not know at first that I was another being, another entity. Part of treating me respectfully long term, was understanding that I thought about *me* the way he thought about *him*. What was true for him, was true for me.

I do see families in which the mother becomes invisible. She is a resource, not a person unto herself. Her children will be kinder to strangers than to her. We say that children save the worst for mom and that is true in a sense. I mean, don't we all save the worst of ourselves for those closest to us? But I think with gd, there is a tendency to over simplify this.

I think of it this way~if a person says "You can always come to me, always talk to me, always count on me to help. But you cannot abuse me, yell at me, or hit me" does this last part push them away? Will you be less trusting, less open, because you know this about a person? No, I don't think you will. Over time, what tends to happen to relationships in which one person takes any kind of treatment without defining personal boundaries? Are they hurting the other person, or helping them, when they define and maintain their own boundaries? All of these questions apply to the dynamics with kids too.

[kitty waltz]

that was so eloquently said, heartmama. I think Ive agreed with every post of yours Ive read!

[TripMom]

OK Heartmama, I hate to be this poster because I get frustrated when people do this to me . . . and gee I feel like I'm hijacking this thread (OP please forgive). . . . but I can't resist - I'm hoping you (or someone) has some wisdom .. . . I totally get the "if he won't leave the room to cool off then you should leave the room". It totally squares with everything I've been reading -- you can't make them do something - focus on what you can do. Here is my monkey wrench . . . I almost never can leave the room because I am in the room with the triplets too. You just can't scoop up 3, 14 month olds and retreat?

Here is an example of some DS bad behavior -that is chronic. From 5 to 6 is the babies "special time" with me and DH - they have had dinner and bath - and we crawl around on the floor reading books, snuggling, etc. before bed. I cherish this time - especially on days that I am working. I have tried to work with DS on his "special time" being from 6 pm on - much longer - and completely focused on him -no sharing with other sibs. Anway - the last few weeks all DS does is cause trouble during babies special time- so much so that I end up having to spend the whole time with him OR spend the whole time discipling DS. What does he do? General disruption that escalates to full blown meanness - start by piling all the babies things in the middle of the room so no one can crawl without stumbling on this stuff, take the books out of their hands, stand in their way so they can't get by him, insist that I hold him, try to shove a baby off my lap, push them, crawl over them, pretend cry and scream when I tell him to stop . . . shall I go on? Anyway - he wins. Each and every night I end up either holding him on my lap reading baby-books to him OR escalating discipline scenario starting very GD and quickly ending in yelling or removing from room. Of course - all of that keeps me busy with DS and babies get completely cheated out of mom time - just heard me struggling with DS for an hour and now they are tired and need to go to bed.

Tried discussing with DS at family meeting. Tried reasoning that everyone needs their special time. Always include DS in babies special time- he is in the room with us - but just want him to be mellow (not working). Tried to focus on how he might feel if babies acted up during his special time? Tried to set up a "special signal" so that when he starts to lose it we could give each other the signal as a reminder that his special time was coming (he didn't really get that concept). I am fresh out of ideas .. . . .

HELP? (Sorry OP)

[Threefold]

TripMom, when we are faced with a similar situations, this is what works for us. To me, it is the logical consequence.
If my ds, after a full exlaination, etc, and all the talking you've done, still distrupting the triplets's (OMG, you must be amazing!) time, I would explain that if he took his time now, he would get less time later. So, if he monopolized my attention for 10 minutes of the triplets time, his time would be 10 minutes shorter than usual. This seems like it would only work if your time with ds has a specific ending time, and maybe it needs to, so he can understand the equity of the whole thing. Another thought is making sure your ds has plenty of independent activities to do during the triplets time. These could be special games, books, books on tape, whatever, that he only gets during this time. Another idea is to have your ds have special time with dh while you have special time with the twins and then switch?
HTH
I'll get back later with some more thoughts on ideas of how firm actually looks, but dh is waiting for me for a movie.

[Mizelenius]

DD screamed at me for not getting her when I put chocolate in her milk (she wanted to do it). All offers of "next time" went ignored. If things don't go her way, she yells at us (not at other adults).

When I removed her from the kitchen (I wanted to eat my lunch . . .younger DD will only let me so long), she cried/moaned in the hallway feeling bad for herself (she sang the "misfit" song from Rudolph). She does not understand that screaming at one's parents is unacceptable . . .all she gets out of it is that I am mean.

I am so lost.

[angela&avery]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

(she sang the "misfit" song from Rudolph).

Im so sorry, but that made me laugh..

I flipped out on ds last night because he was asked numerous times to get ready to go and finally said nastily to my mother "NO"..... i was so upset, i removed him from teh room and did the whole you n eed to listen to grammy lecture... ....
ugh.....

im lost at times too....

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by angela&avery

Im so sorry, but that made me laugh..

I flipped out on ds last night because he was asked numerous times to get ready to go and finally said nastily to my mother "NO"..... i was so upset, i removed him from teh room and did the whole you n eed to listen to grammy lecture... ....
ugh.....

im lost at times too....

It made me laugh, too . . .(not so she could see!). She's pretty funny!

to you. At least we know we're not alone!

[Threefold]

Sigh. Me too. Logical consequences help a great deal, and sometimes the logical consequence makes my kids angry. I think my job is to empathize and support them through it, but not necessarily to soften the blow.
I often find myself telling them, "I know that is not the answer you wanted to hear. . ."
My ds threw a grumpy sleepy tantrum in the middle of the night b/c he wanted to cuddle me, but had woken up dd, who then needed to nurse. He was kicking me and shoving me. I told him he could not hurt me, that I knew he was disapointed that he had to wait, but that if he hurt me again he could would need to sleep in his own bed. I asked if he could stop, and he did. I think this worked for us b/c I was calm (honestly I think I was waaaaay to tired to get mad! ) b/c leaving is the logical consequence for hurting someone, and b/c he knew I would follow through. He calmed right down and settled for rubbing my back while I nursed (his choice), until his sister was done and I could turn to cuddle him.

I often repeat that it is my job (and Daddy's) to keep everyone in our house safe. When he hits, kicks, name calls, I remind him of this, and ask if he will help me keep everyone safe. When he says no. I tell him that I have a problem with that and that he will need to be in the other room until he can help. I always tell him that I will check on him every 2 minutes so that HE feels safe and not rejected.
Growing up is not a pretty process. They all try out the most horrid behaviors with us, and often need to try them again and again before they truly have grasped why these behaviors don't work.
I find I can discipline best when I am calm, and have gotten enough of my most basic needs met, and understand that his/her behavior is not about me, though I can work to guide it.

FWIW, I am much more uptight with my ds, who is my older child. With my dd, I am relaxed and calm almost all of the time, even though she is hitting tantrum stage much earlier and more intensely than my ds did. I remind myself of this and try to lighten up with him as well.

[ktmama]

But - I'm hoping you'll get a poster with some tangible advice - I agree with be firm - but firm with what? We can firmly say you may not "yell" at me. But if he does it again - then what? Is this the appropriate point to insert some type of consequence? I've tried - "please go to your room until you can act more respectfully to me and your dad" -- but he won't go on his own? so then what - we carry him kicking and screaming up the stairs to his room? That doesn't seem GD . . . . I don't mean to hijack your post . . . but I think the issues are related . . . . once you are "firm" -- then what?

You are right, it's sooooo important to set up natural consequences that you can and feel comfortable following through with. When my dd1 was 2 and 3 and trying out her voice, I simply ignored rudeness, screaming, demanding, any requests made in an unacceptable way. I told her this was my strategy, so she knew my M.O. So, no suprise that mama is ignoring you. I might even say, "I'm not responding because you are screaming at me. When you can ask for what you want in a kind voice and say please, I will respond to you then". The challenge for me was always continuing to ignore unacceptable behavior. That's the tricky part. Otherwise, I would have just taught her that pushing the voice from 8 to 10+ is what really gets mama to respond, not a kind or gentle voice. Those little ones are smart this way, huh?

I often repeat that it is my job (and Daddy's) to keep everyone in our house safe.

This is a great strategy that I've used over and over, inserting different jobs here and there, such as, "my job is to make sure everyone feels heard, my job is to make sure you are clean, etc..." I think in all honesty this helps me remember that I am the mom and it's not necessarily my job to be the best friend and make everyone happy.

Thank you all so much for this really informative thread. I truly have believed in having really firm boundaries with my dd1 from the beginning while being kind and respectful to her and treating her with dignity. I've seen great results from this strategy too - it has worked for HER. As an observation, it's important for me to remember that the word DISCIPLINE is included in the philosophy of GD. I'm learning so much from you all.

[mamaduck]

This is such a good thread. Really. Though Oceanbaby -- I hate to hear that you are having a hard time. You work so hard with your babies and I always think to myself that if anyone deserves a smooth ride -- it has got to be you.

I agree 100% with what Heart has to say about setting personal boundries. We do not do our children any favors by allowing them to treat us like dirt. Really, that isn't GD. And esp. with boys, Ocean -- they way he treats you is going to be mirrored in the way he treats his wife someday. Thats a huge resposibility. Expecting a person to treat you with respect is not punishing or being less than gentle.

Now -- having said that, I think your son is at an age of transistion and its going to be a learning process with a lot of little set backs. Up until now he has just been learning to be verbal. Now he has to work on being verbal in a *nice way* and its not an easy skill! I dealt with this process in 3 different ways depending on the situation:

1) If there is an urgent problem stimulating the bad behavior, then I help him solve the problem and I ignore the bad behavior for the moment. Ie. -- if he's hungry, I get a sandwich into him. I don't spend 20 minutes trying to make him ask nicely. If he's having a bad time because he's jealous of the baby, I work on helping him find a way to voice his problem and get what he needs.

But then later.... when things are calm -- I tell him no uncertain terms that my feelings were hurt by the way he spoke to me, and next time he has a problem I need him to use NICE WORDS. And then I ROLE PLAY with him. They think its silly and embarassing, but I ask them to ACT OUT the scenerio again and I feed them constructive language. Its very very helpful to approach them when they are not stressed out, and very helpful to have them rehearse nice behavior. It comes more easily in the stressful times if it has been practised at other times.

We also practise "tone of voice." I don't think they have any idea how nasty they sound in the moment. At a better time, I play/practise at different tones of voice with them, experimenting with how they sound, and disscussing what messages are communicated. KWIM?

2) If there is no urgent problem and my kids is just being a little SOB because he is testing limits or feeling cranky, or whatever, and I feel confident that he has some level of emotional resources to draw from ---- then I flat out refuse to deal with him until he is treating me nicely. "I'm sorry. I need space from you. I'm going to the other room. You come find me when you can use nice words." Or -- "You need to try again. I don't respond to that kind of language." Or -- "Can you try that again with a nicer tone of voice?"

3) A very few times, I have had one of my kids melt down and loose it so bad that I felt scared. My boys are big, and when they loose control they can do damage. I have sat on the floor and restrained them before, trying to be soothing and releasing them the instant they regain control. Then solving the problem. Then talking about it later.

I also think your DH needs to start spending 1:1 time with him, actively teaching him how to respect mommy and how to be a "man." KWIM? This is really helpful when my Dh does it. I know it can sound harsh sometimes, but boys need to be taught to respect women. And Dh will tell our sons in no uncertain terms that he expects them to be 1) gentle with mommy, 2) respectful of mommy and 3) appreciative of mommy.

[mamaduck]

Trip -- I am not Heart, but I wanted to address your problem situation. I hope that is okay. In your shoes, I would let go of "special time with babies." From a 3-4 year old perspective, this is a painful time of day when he is on the outside looking-in and not feeling like part of the family. It isn't fair to him. He does not feel that his "turn" makes up for it, and he is not old enough to delay emotional gratification at the level you are expecting. I think his bad behavior in this situation is an ineffective way of telling you that his feelings are deeply hurt by this routine, and wants to change it. I'm not saying its okay for him to communicate in this way, but he's only 3 and he's doing the best he can.

Some alternatives:
1) Include him on the playtime, and let him be one of the babies.
2) Spend time with the babies and have DH take him out for a little bit.
3) Find someone to take him for an hour on a regular basis so that you and DH can be alone with the babies.

Editing to add that evenings can be really rough for everyone, and I understand that. It was rough us with a 4 yo. and ONE baby, and I cannot imagine with 3!!! It does sound like you are doing a great job dividing your time and attention.

[Peepsqueak]

All the posts to respond were good so I have no better suggestions. However I will comment NonGD parents have many problems with their children's behavior too. What they do about it may work: i.e. fear factors such as spanking, yelling, or other harsh and demanding punishments...but kids will still misbehave.
So it is better to just ride it out and keep reinforcing the positive instead of replacing bad behavior with another bad behavior as a deterrant.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

Trip -- I am not Heart, but I wanted to address your problem situation. I hope that is okay. In your shoes, I would let go of "special time with babies." From a 3-4 year old perspective, this is a painful time of day when he is on the outside looking-in and not feeling like part of the family. It isn't fair to him. He does not feel that his "turn" makes up for it, and he is not old enough to delay emotional gratification at the level you are expecting. I think his bad behavior in this situation is an ineffective way of telling you that his feelings are deeply hurt by this routine, and wants to change it. I'm not saying its okay for him to communicate in this way, but he's only 3 and he's doing the best he can.

Some alternatives:
1) Include him on the playtime, and let him be one of the babies.
2) Spend time with the babies and have DH take him out for a little bit.
3) Find someone to take him for an hour on a regular basis so that you and DH can be alone with the babies.

Editing to add that evenings can be really rough for everyone, and I understand that. It was rough us with a 4 yo. and ONE baby, and I cannot imagine with 3!!! It does sound like you are doing a great job dividing your time and attention.

Thansk Mamduck. You are so right - he clearly is very hurt by this time with the babies. And he clearly does not "get it". When I try to point out his special time is coming, and its better, he doesn't have to share, its longer, its both DH and I -- he just looks at me and says I want special time now? You are very very right on that point.

I think my only option is to try and find a way to include him in the special time - without letting him "take it over". I am not comfortable with other care arrangements during that time - as DH and I both work and between that and the babies regular demands - he has a lot of time in the care of others. Luckily, the babies are soo young - that they likely will not notice if DS is "in" on the special time. My challenge will be to accomplish a peacful co-existence - I've not been able to do that yet - but there has to be a way, right? Hopefully - this too shall pass - and before the babies get older and really start asserting their rightful time with DH and I!

Thanks to all.

Last thought - maybe I will try letting him "be one of the babies" - like you said? I'll report back on now that one works!

[mamaduck]

Trip - if you succeed in establishing a peaceful co-existance, please share the secret of your success! My kids are in a pile on the floor wrestling as we speak.
At least its good natured for the moment, but far from peaceful!

When I was in the birth center holding my 2nd baby, a very sweet and wise nurse gave me some advice. She said if the baby and the 3 yo. are both needy at the same time, and I can only attend to them one at a time -- go to the 3 yo. first every time! LOL. It was really very decent advice. The babies will role with the punches. Its the 3 yo. who has had his world rocked in the past year!

[Fuamami]

Hey Tripmom, I just wanted to suggest that maybe you could have a "big boy" activity set up for him that only he can do? This works with my dd when I need to put the baby down, I have things like Playdough and scissors and glue sticks, etc. I make a big production of getting it out and saying stuff to the baby like, "Sorry, these are only for big kids. You'll have to wait until you get a lot bigger to use these. Babies have to take naps right now." He's usually not even listening, but my dd is.

But this would probably only work if it's boredom that he's dealing with, so if he's just wanting more time with you, sorry!

[Stone Fence]

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