How does that mama bear instinct get suppressed?

[gridley13]

Often when I am thinking about the issue of circumcision, the big question I am left with is: How is it that a mother can let her son be taken away to have part of his penis cut off? Where is that mother bear instinct that makes us so fiercely protective in other situations? Do you know what I mean? How do moms act so protective on so many other issues but then just hand them over to be cut? I don't get it.

[Leiahs]

I've thought about this some, as well.

Putting myself in their shoes....thinking back to before I had researched circumcision at all but would have felt uneasy about doing it anyway....I would have to say perhaps part of it is the doctor authority. If the doctor asks you, performs the operation, and says it's okay, then it must be okay. And if your husband is circ'd and is okay, it must be okay. And if the whole country is circ'd (because really, they all are, right? ), it must be okay. The entire force of doctors and country can't be wrong, can they? If you have just given birth you're probably feeling overwhelmed and perhaps a little insecure. They can bulldoze you over with information and routines at a hospital. Mamas must just get lost in it all. Or maybe it's because they don't think it's cutting off a part of their penis at all.

But now I can't identify with any of that, knowing what I know. So maybe I'm completely off base and my assumptions are all wrong.

[+stella+]

I think it has to do with... hmm. Let me put it this way. I had been with a few intact guys and many circed guys. I "liked" circ better because I was more familiar with it. Didnt have an opinion on the look of a penis because well, I dont find it or my parts particularly attractive anyway. But for me I thought.. well, it will be done because thats what I like and thats whats done.
But I just had this feeling. You know? That its just not... something Id let happen. Seems so scary, what if something went wrong, what if it got messed up and it scarred him forever, what if what if what if!
So I went to find reasons to do it, and I found sooo many reasons not to do it and I was utterly relieved. I had a little bit of the fear of the social pressures and what if he wishes he was and is mad when he gets bigger and stuff like that, right up until he was born and then I have NEVER worried about that since because just looking at him, I KNEW there was nooo way I could do that and I was really glad I had that mother instinct to begin with.
Now thats not saying I think that mothers dont have that instinct, I think they let it get pushed aside by what relatives say, or what they know their friends have done, or what the doctor says, and they just push it away and dont question. And thats the sad part, moms need to TRUST and embrace that instinct!
Now of course I know exactly what I will tell him if he asks why he wasnt circed, and give him all the great info on what the foreskin is for and eveything he "has" for having it. And now being more knowledgable myself, I mourn for my husband and our sexual relationship and know what I am missing and if given the chance, would have my husband whole as well.
(trying to talk him into restore and he says if I get him the info he will read it and think about it but we have no printer at home and I cant print that stuff at work, so someday)
but yeah, bottom line, ALWAYS listen to that instinct and dont let it get pushed aside for anyone else, especially now when there is so much info out there to back up the instinct, thank goodness it was there for me. :-)

[pdx.mothernurture]

I've always thought the circ rate would decrease drastically if doctors would quit performing circumcisions on babies within the first few days, and gave the mother's instincts a chance to kick in. Most American births are medicalized/drugged, and we have an astronomical cesarean rate. If mothers were given more time to bond with and get to know their perfect, healthy, whole babies...and a chance to see and learn that their foreskins aren't going to reach up and strangle them...I think we'd seen an even more significant reduction.

Jen

[MommytoB]

I would totally agree if doctors totally opposed circumcision in hospital then no one can get into see the pedi til 2 wks or 4 wks maybe he would still have a chance of being left as nature intended then it would be easier for a instinct to set in w/o being worn out/drugged from L/D.

Then there comes the issue of the fear of their husband's a mother can be against it totally but so afraid to stand up for her son to her husband/partner because she doesn't want to get into 'big fights' with him. It's like I don't get it because if a mother could picture a 'doctor' being a bully then maybe she could get a nerve to say her husband/partner There's No way in H@ll that my son will be circumcized.

What makes a mother shrink to her husband/partner and choose his parenting choices than protecting her own son ?

[njeb]

Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy

I've always thought the circ rate would decrease drastically if doctors would quit performing circumcisions on babies within the first few days, and gave the mother's instincts a chance to kick in. Most American births are medicalized/drugged, and we have an astronomical cesarean rate. If mothers were given more time to bond with and get to know their perfect, healthy, whole babies...and a chance to see and learn that their foreskins aren't going to reach up and strangle them...I think we'd seen an even more significant reduction.

Jen

:
Being a member of the older generation, I can tell you how easy it was for our mothers' and grandmothers' instincts to be overridden. During the 40's, 50's, and 60's, most mothers got general anethesia for childbirth, even vaginal childbirth. Then they weren't allowed to hold their babies until 12-24 hours after the birth. By the time they finally got to hold their babies, they were already circ'ed. The bf rate back then was only about 20-25%, too. Women were so drugged that their instincts had no chance to kick in.

[gridley13]

I feel so sad for moms who are feeling that instinct and don't know enough or are having so much outside pressure that they wind up supressing that instinct and regretting it.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by gridley13

I feel so sad for moms who are feeling that instinct and don't know enough or are having so much outside pressure that they wind up supressing that instinct and regretting it.

ITA, how horrible and heartwrenching it must be for a woman who's inner voice is screaming, "Protect your son! This isn't right! Do something! Stop them!!!" but whose doctor is saying, "Better now, than later.", whose partner is saying, "I'm circed, and I'm just fine. He should be like me.", whose family and friends are saying, "Foreskins are filthy. Everyone circumcises. If you don't do this, your son will be a total reject and a complete failure." Sometimes women are painted into such a corner by medical authorities who they trust to have their family's best interests at heart, and those that are supposed to love and care about them...to the point where they don't feel they have a choice at all or can't, for whatever reason find the strength to fight anymore, and end up justifying it with, "I've never heard a circed man complain. He'll be fine. What do I know? I don't have a penis. Doctors wouldn't do it if it was harmful."

How difficult it must be for these women to lay in their hospital beds, their sons taken from them, watching the clock, knowing what's being done and that there's no taking the choice back, even though they already have major reservations.

And then it's done and over and can't be changed, and they're left dealing with the fallout, changing the bloody diapers, wishing they'd spoken up and stood up...and then being faced with even more pressure with subsequent sons needing to "match" or not wanting to explain the differences, etc.

There are so many pressures on parents these days. Ultimately, the consent is signed by the parents, usually the mother...but I have to wonder, how often is circumcision really desired? How often is she really comfortable with it? How often would she do it if she wasn't exausted from her hospital birth, with narcotics in her system, with an adamant husband at her side?

I realize that this is a generalization, but we hear the story all the time. Granted, sometimes it's the women-superficial and ignorant-who insist it be done so their son can get BJs in high school...but this seems less common.

Jen

[zeldamomma]

[QUOTE=Leiahs]
Putting myself in their shoes....thinking back to before I had researched circumcision at all but would have felt uneasy about doing it anyway....I would have to say perhaps part of it is the doctor authority. If the doctor asks you, performs the operation, and says it's okay, then it must be okay. And if your husband is circ'd and is okay, it must be okay. And if the whole country is circ'd (because really, they all are, right? ), it must be okay. The entire force of doctors and country can't be wrong, can they? If you have just given birth you're probably feeling overwhelmed and perhaps a little insecure. They can bulldoze you over with information and routines at a hospital. Mamas must just get lost in it all.
[QUOTE]

I think this is a lot of it. It's hard to understand that all these people who seem to care so much about babies would allow circ if it's really that bad. I didn't start questioning circ till I started hearing my friends with boys talking about all the complications (which the medical literature dismiss as rare-- I must know an unusual group of women then, because something like 10% had some kind of problem).

[QUOTE=Leiahs]
Or maybe it's because they don't think it's cutting off a part of their penis at all.
[QUOTE]

The mainstream baby magazines and literature focus on the procedure itself, and then the "risks" of being intact-- the perception I got was that circumcision removes that annoying, useless flap of skin that keeps a penis from really being clean. So the choice becomes one where your baby is briefly uncomfortable for a lifetime of "protection". Women who are afraid of the non-mainstream sources could easily be confused.

Anybody want to start suing baby mags for writing stupid articles?

ZM

[gridley13]

Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy

Granted, sometimes it's the women-superficial and ignorant-who insist it be done so their son can get BJs in high school...but this seems less common.

Jen

Actually, this wound up being the deciding factor for my friend who just recently circ'd, despite my best efforts. And she did all the research. :

[Shaunam]

Well, I've often wondered why docs have no problem strapping newborns down and doing it w/out pain relief, but with and older baby, they use general anesthesia. After all, a 10 month old will "never remember it anyways" too, right? And parents will send their newborns to have it done w/out pain relief, but will balk if the doc tried to do that to their 10 month old.

I think, in some way, people don't really see a newborn as a real little person, who has real feelings and emotions, and feels pain, just like the rest of us. Newborns just lay there. They don't interact a lot. And they cry a lot anyways.

But a 10 month old has lots of personality. They express their emotions quite clearly. They scream bloody murder when they fall and hurt themselves, but may not cry much the rest of the time. They may even walk and talk. They seem like a *real* human being.

I think a lot of people need a few months to realize that their baby is a real person and not a play-thing or a guinea pig to do with as they please.

I've heard way too many times that it's "better to get it done when they are newborns than when they are older and it will really affect them". See? They think it doesn't affect newborns. Because they aren't real people yet.

OTOH, I think a lot of mothers are convinced that it is not painful and there is no possible down-sides or risks. It's easier to let it happen when you are so brain-washed that common sense loses it's potency.

[KBinSATX]

I think it's just part of the 'that's the way it's supposed to be done' stuff.
Circ is one of the more severe forms of it but there are tons of other examples.
I was shocked to learn that people find it so important for babies to have nurseries (I grew up in Europe and it would seem crazy to put your baby away in a different room). They are little mammals - surely they would rpefer to be with humans over having a matching theme in their own little room...