did i do okay?

[babykaoss]

i was asked to respond to some comments on a blog, and am not sure how well i covered it. i wasnt sure how to respond to the rape analogy so i left it alone.

Here's the blog comments-

Regarding the issue, I will say that it will be hard for me when I have male children, because I do prefer the aesthetics of the cut genitals. It's cuter, to me. All of my boyfriends thus far have been cut, and the father of my children will probably be cut. So I don't know where I will stand when I have children.

I cannot believe that someone would compare something that you don't even remember to rape, where a woman is usually beaten then violated. WTF is wrong with you for even stating that as if could possibly be true??

Second, I am all for personal choice, but to be honest, I don't think it's that big of a deal. There have been no memories of the circumcision ever recorded. So I really don't see what the big deal is.

Finally, women give birth to children, a pain that I am willing to guarantee hurts more then circumcision. Women remember that. A basketball through a pee shooter....somehow, I just don't see how 30 seconds of slicing and a few hours of whimpering to end up never remembering even remotely compares to 13-48 hours of gut wrenching contractions and a pain that only women will understand.

and here is my response-

I must take issue with comments made by the previous two posters. I have to let you know that your logic is skewed and frankly disturbing at times.

Ailey, regarding the cut penis appearing "cuter", you yourself admit all of your past experience has been with cut men. Therefore you don't prefer it, you actually have no experience with both to make a claim of preference. You are only comfortable with it, since it is all you know. It is completely within your right to choose to be sexually active with whatever kind of genitals interest you most. But to say that you will most likely have your future sons cut because you find a circ'd penis "cuter" is frankly disturbing and perverse. Do you really need to find your baby sexually appealing? At the cost of denying him a decision about the most private part of his body? It honestly isn't your decision to make, especially at such a high cost to the child, for such a flippant reason as "cute" or "not cute"

As far as comparing the pain of childbirth to the pain of circumcision, I can give my two cents safely here as well, as I have a 12 week old son. I just experienced childbirth, completely without medication. But you know what? I had the choice to have a pain relieving method as sophisticated as an epidural, which blocks ALL feeling from the waist down. Infants dont recieve such a choice, and many times are given nothing, or something as ineffective as a topical numbing cream. Also, women who are in pain from childbirth have a glaring difference here, which makes your comparison inept and null and void....

they CHOSE to take their pregnancy full term, knowing they would endure labor and delivery to bring that child into the world. Women have a choice to end pregnancy. The infants we are talking about have their rights to make decisions about their very own genitals stolen from them. This is wrong. Until there is medically necessitated reasons that a child should have part of his (or her!) genitals amputated, it should not be even arguable. Its inconceivable to me that the arguments given so many times in favor of circumcising an infant is solely the parent's preference of appearance. Why is it okay to perform genitally altering cosmetic surgery on a baby?

Please, be honest with yourselves when making such weighty decisions. I know it takes great courage to think outside of the box, especially when the circ penis is the norm for so many of you. Your children are worth it.


Hopefully it was okay to post this here. If not please LMK!

[nd_deadhead]

I think your responses were terrific!

I would have added another section, however. The second paragraph in the second quote implies that circumcision is not a big deal because the person it happens to won't remember it. What kind of a reason is this? It's OK to let my baby scream in hunger, because he won't remember it? It's OK to leave him in a wet or dirty diaper for hours, because he won't remember it? It's OK to yell and scream at him, because he won't remember it?

My sons don't remember me singing them lullabies as I nursed them; they don't remember me holding them in my arms for hours on end; they don't remember me changing their diapers or washing their hair or tickling their tummies or playing soft music. So why did I waste my time? Maybe because those early experiences ARE important, hmm? And if providing positive experiences is that important, isn't it just as important to minimize negative experiences?

Babykaoss, please feel free to add my thoughts to your reply, if you think they are worthwhile.

Ann

[babykaoss]

thank you ann! i agree 150%. it's hard for me to not get emotional and a little tongue tied, so i have never responded to one of these before. this is my first time, and its hard to remember all of the points you want to make. thank you....i am going to add your words to mine.

[CallMeMommy]

Wow! Great responses! I don't have any experience on the rape aspect of it, either, but I do believe there is someone here who was raped, doesn't remember it, so does that make it okay? (not addressed to you, obviously, but to the person you're referring to!)

[splash]

Yes, I am not going to say who that person was. But there was a thread on it a few months ago. And basically what it was compared to was rape with rupies. If you're drugged and don't remember it, it's okay to be raped I guess. Same idea.

[morning glory]

Yeah, I think the rape comparison is a perfectly valid one...esepically so called "date rape" where drugs are involved. The end result is something very intimate was taken from you with out your consent. Circ may even be made worse by the fact that your parents did consent to it.

I also like to ask at what age is it no longer okay to strap someone down and take a part of their body for cosmetic reasons? 18? 12? 6? Would it be okay to decide that your 16 year old son would look better if he were cut and just haul him in to have it done one day? Or what about when your son is 35? If its not okay to do to a grown man then why is it okay to do it to a baby?

Casey

[Nathan1097]

Originally Posted by morning glory

I also like to ask at what age is it no longer okay to strap someone down and take a part of their body for cosmetic reasons? 18? 12? 6? Would it be okay to decide that your 16 year old son would look better if he were cut and just haul him in to have it done one day? Or what about when your son is 35? If its not okay to do to a grown man then why is it okay to do it to a baby?

Casey

Because the baby can't recount it to you, like an older child could! I mean, what's worse than having a child argue/refuse? Having them recount it to you over and over- "Why did you do that to me?!"

[morning glory]

Because the baby can't recount it to you, like an older child could! I mean, what's worse than having a child argue/refuse? Having them recount it to you over and over- "Why did you do that to me?!"

You're exactly right. And that makes it even worse in my mind. The medical community has been getting away with RIC because they perpetrate it on people who are too young to speak out. And more often than not when one of those victims grows up and does speak out against it they are painted as nuts. The more you think about it the sicker it is. It baffles me to no end that not everyone can see the absurdity of the situation.

[minkajane]

I would also add something about the time involved. The second comment mentioned 30 seconds of cutting and a few minutes of whimpering. Um, NO! The surgery itself takes 10-15 minutes, then 7-10 DAYS (not minutes) to heal, during which the infant receives only baby Tylenol, if anything at all. BIG difference!

[Bm31]

Originally Posted by morning glory

And more often than not when one of those victims grows up and does speak out against it they are painted as nuts. The more you think about it the sicker it is. It baffles me to no end that not everyone can see the absurdity of the situation.

It is absurd. There's a very active circumfetishist who is quite prolific on parenting boards who will paint any man unhappy with being circ'd as "brainwashed" by "anti-circ propoganda" and having psychological problems. Yeah right, buddy, my damages from circ were physical and REAL....unlike his fetish to cut up his own genitals, by HIS choice as an adult...and his desire to recruit parents to mutilate their infant sons. Now, just who has the psychological problems??

[babykaoss]

here's her response

One, there are a lot of things far worse then circumcision. How about a negligent mother. When was the last time you have ever heard some boy say "Man, I really hate that bitch of a mom because she made me get circumcised?" You don't. How about an abusive father? Or being beaten up at school? Or being abandoned? The thing is, physical pain fades, and heals with time. Mental anguish does not. So don't give me that bulls*** that this is some traumatizing matter because if that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more psychos living out there then currently.

I have had a biopsy done. That is done without anesthetic, and extremely painful. I could say comparable to the male circumcision. But the difference is I remember how that felt because I know have abstract thought. But did it heal the same, yes. Has it permanently scarred me from it. Hell no. Am I going to raise hell about the procedure because it caused me momentary grief. No.

Circumcision is about what the parents want. If they choose to have it done, then that's their choice. Not yours or anyone else's. Just like it should always be a woman's right to get an abortion, and a person's right to get a sex change. If the parents decide they want the procedure for their child, then that should be their right. You made your choice. Who are you to even think about pushing your opinions on anyone else.

As for me, I choose NOT to have children. One, I don't want them. They aren't for me and I don't feel that my life's success depends on how many kids I can pop out. Two, why bring someone into this world full of judgemental hypocrites that just have to preach about any little thing they can to make themselves feel like they are important??? I say to each his own, but get it straight. Mental trauma vs. physical will always be more troubling to any individual. Period.

and here's mine.....but i'm so frustrated that i don't think i can do this anymore.....i dont feel like i'm doing a good enough job. and is it my imagination or is she insulting me and my babies?


one- you don't realize how extensive a circumcision really is. I have had a biopsy myself. a circumcision is not a simple biopsy, it is not a snip of skin, it is a amputation preceeded by a crushing and separating of a fused glans and prepuce, followed by slicing and sometimes even cauterizing.



circumcision is not about what the parents want. if you believe in choice, then parents should keep their sexual preferences about appearances off the genitals of another person. the fact that the infant cannot speak and use words yet does not make them any less worthy of the rights of adults. it should be the adults choice to circumcise when they are of age if that is their wish, NOT the parents. should christian anti abortion parents force a teen to carry a pregnancy to term because its what the "parent's want?" no. its NOT THEIR BODY. plain and simple.

i'm not pushing my opinions on anyone else. people who steal the foreskins of babies too young to say no are, but not allowing them time to grow and form their own opinion. did you know that hospitals make double the money on foreskins by charging parents, insurance companies, and taxpayers for the procedure, and then are able to sell them to cosmetic companies and others for "research"?

[pdx.mothernurture]

...and isn't the mantra of pro-choicers, "Her body, her choice"? Well, who the heck does a baby's belong to? Who's going to, one day, be using it sexually? Who has to live with the results? Who's body is the knife being taken to?

Jen

[babykaoss]

[Daisyuk]

Perhaps you could turn it around and say it's more like parents taking a teen mother and forcing her to have an abortion when she wants to keep the baby. Her body, their choice, right?

My mother knew someone who did something similar (forced her to have the child adopted), and now they regret it so much - because their daughter never had another child and she never forgave them for it. The only reason RIC advocates get away with it is because they do it to babies who won't remember and know nothing else. Presumably that's why they're currently attacking babies in Africa rather than just adult men who can decide for themselves.

I'm glad that poster isn't going to have children, she sounds far to selfish to be a good mother.

[paquerette]

Well, we all know that there are men who are angry about their circs and angry at their parents, whether she knows it or not.

Physical trauma begets mental trauma. What if an abusive parent beats their child but doesn't say cruel things to them? The bruises and wounds heal and then the kid is a-ok? I don't think so.

Anyway, she sounds like one of those rabid childfree people who thinks that babies and small children are pretty much like puppies or something. I wouldn't expect anyone with that mindset to understand.

[nd_deadhead]

Sarah, that person is just one of those brick walls who will NEVER change their mind. Let's all be thinkful that she doesn't plan to have children!

But I honestly believe that her attitude does more to help our cause than to harm it. Think of the number of reasonable people who will read her words, recognize that she has some serious issues (circ is about what the PARENTS want?), and look to your posts as the voice of reason.

She gave you an opportunity to get good information out there, and made herself look like a nut case, while you look like a saint. Even though you will never change HER mind, I'll bet your conversation with her will change lots of others!

[hummingbear]

so how is it that this person can compare physical abuse to mental abuse and deem one worse than the other.

and how is it that this person can claim that only those things which are remembered are important, what about those things which are so bad that they are bannished to the subconcious

and how is it that this person can talk about the pain of child birth when it seems that she has not had any children

and how is it that this person could compare the pain of childbirth and circumcision and claim one is worse that the other

-actually from the way this person talked about the pain of childbirth it seemed that there was a great deal of resentment

You did great. Don't let this one get you down.