19 mo with bad cavities- fillings or nutrition?

[DevaMajka]

So, my 19 mo old son has cavities on his 2 front top teeth (along the gum line). We noticed them a few months ago, and took him to the dentist. She said that they don't work on kids his age (as far as holding them down or ga). They've gotten WAY worse since then, despite brushing 2-3 times a day, limiting juice to mealtimes (so they're brushed after), and brushing after most candy.
He does nurse at night, but I find it hard to believe that his tooth decay was caused by that. But could it be making them worse?
I read the curing cavities with nutrition thread, and the Weston Price site, and we got some cod liver oil (started a few weeks ago- ds loves to take it now, and even asks for more lol) and started trying to get organic/grass fed dairy. (ot, but thanks JaneS for that thread- it got me into doing a lot of reading on nutrition, and changed our eating habits!)

Anyways, the cavities seem to be causing him discomfort (maybe it just feels wierd?) when we try to brush them. (brushing has never been fun or easy either.) Eating doesn't seem to be a problem. And like I said, they are definitely bigger than they were 2 mos ago.
At this rate, I'm not sure if waiting to get them filled seems to be a good idea. Can nutrition help the cavities at this point? I feel pretty strongly about not doing GA, and not having him held down against his will. But I am also worried that the cavities will quickly get worse, and start to hurt when he eats. WWYD?

Also, I have 4 small cavities that the dentist wants to fill. I have an appt for the end of this month. I'm curious to test out the nutrition curing cavities thing. Should I hold off on getting them filled? They aren't bothering me at all, and the dentist said they were VERY small. How long does it take to see any results from cod liver oil etc?

Ok tia for any info or advice

[TudoBem]

My ds has decay on his top four front teeth with the lateral incisors worse than the central ones. We've been doing the butter oil and cod liver oil for about 6 weeks now (both of us as I'm still bf'ing him). There was a time when I thought the teeth looked better but then I noticed the lateral incisors continuing to chip away.
My diet is good. He doesn't eat much except bm, but we're very careful with what he does eat. I don't think there are any gross nutritional deficiencies in our case.
I am curious about Weston Price's research and how just adding butter oil and cod liver oil stopped decay and helped remineralize the inside of the tooth because from what I've read, most people that are trying this now are not getting the same result.
I find this toddler tooth decay to be a bit of a mystery and wish I could understand it better.
I would say any supplements (i.e. CLO) that you can do would be beneficial, minimally in a nutritional sense.
I will say that I have heard of some people who have done butter oil, CLO, homeopathics, salt, special gels, brushing after anything is ingested, various supplements (including vitamins, supergreens, bee pollen, etc.) plus other things that have been able to delay getting work done for a while, but I'm not sure how extensive the decay was to begin with.
Perhaps treatment can be delayed if decay is only moderate but if it's already progressing along (i.e. chipping) I would say that delaying for long would be difficult.

However, I would love to hear any success stories that people have with stopping/delaying decay with nutrition!

[toraji]

Ok, here is my story, albeit somewhat quickly so forgive me if I forget some details....

We were extremely strict whole foods vegans for 5 years, during pregnancy and 1 yr of lactation. DD started developing rampant tooth decay, from 1 tooth it spread to the 4 front top very quickly. There were white spots that quickly spread to chalky big spots. Needless to say we freaked out.

We switched to a modified NT diet, including HUGE amounts of fresh vegetables in every manner possible. Blended salads at least once a day. Organ meats and bone broths. Organic pastured butter (though no butter oil). Cod liver oil. Full-spectrum mineral supplement. We were already eating soaked/fermented grains, and very low sugar on our previous diet.

And ta dah...the scary progression of decay stopped at the 4 front teeth. It took a few weeks from the diet change to get to this point. We celebrated and thought everything was ok.

Fast forward to about 10 months later...the decayed teeth started chipping. I now attribute it to the teeth being brittle due to the decay. I didn't know what it was back then, but started to worry. Then the decay started getting darker. More worry. But now I know that decay turning darker is a sign of the cavity dying, and when the decay is black, then the cavity is dead. I didn't know that back then, so we went to see the dentist.

The first dentist blamed it on night nursing and wanted us to night wean before he would put DD under GA to fix the teeth (which he recommended to get done ASAP). He recommended crowns. We ran away to another dentist, fearing putting DD under.

The next dentist didn't say anything about it being due to night nursing but also felt that work was necessary and imperative, and was willing to do the work with just local anaesthetic. Meaning, the parents would restrain the child. We did this since we were scared of GA, but it was one of the worst mistakes I've ever made. If you decide to do work on a young child, please do not use restraint. We paid for it dearly with trust issues, night terrors, and tantrums afterwards. The dentist fixed 2 teeth, with the other 2 set up for another appointment. Needless to say we decided not to go back, and decided to find another dentist to do the work with GA.

We found an absolutely great gentle dentist who worked with DD in overcoming her fear of dentists. She went from crying at the mere sight of a white coat to willingly letting the dentist look at her teeth in about 4 visits. After our first visit, the dentist told me about the color of cavity signalling the speed of decay, and told us that we had a good chance of killing the cavities using topical fluoride treatments because the decay was progressing so slowly. Faced with the prospect of fluoride or GA, we chose to do the fluoride treatments.

And that was the last step we needed to completely kill the decay! Hooray! They turned black very quickly after that.

Now I know that fluoride is very controversial, and I would have not liked to use it at all. Had I had a better diet while pregnant, we probably would not have had any tooth problems and thus would not have had to use it. I am completely opposed to internal consumption of fluoride, but have to say that it worked applied topically. In addition to the office treatments, we used a fluoride toothpaste at home, applied in tiny amounts often during the day (grain of rice size, about 7x a day either brushed or by finger).

As for the diet, I do think it works for tooth health as well as body health. We had many other health issues that resolved themselves after the diet change, and I do attribute it as the main factor in slowing down DD's decay. However, I think that due to modern soil deficiencies and environmental pollution, we are having a harder go of it than during Dr. Price's time. Even Dr. Price sought out butter oil as well as the wheat he used from the most mineralized part of the country, which was Hereford Texas, also known during that time as "The Town Without a Toothache". You can read about it in "Man vs. Toothache" online at the Soil and Health nutrition library http://soilandhealth.org . That is probably why people are not getting the same results today, our soils are just not what they used to be. This is why I did not opt to get the expensive butter oil. And this is why we chose to stress the fresh veggies and mineral supplement too. We absolutely need high levels of minerals to have remineralizing saliva, as well as having other nutrients (like vitamin D) in balance.

And now when DD goes in to the dentist....absolutely no new cavities, perfect gums. The dentist ooohs and ahs over how nice her mouth is and said "Whatever you're doing, keep it up because it's working great."

If I had a chance to do it over again with the knowledge I have now, I would have done the fluoride in addition to the radical diet change. And smiled instead of shaking with fear at the darker decay. I had that misconception that dark decay meant it was progressing faster instead of slower, and made so many mistakes because of it. Now I wonder if I would have been able to completely kill the decay without the aid of fluoride, but who wants their child to be the first guinea pig?

To any mamas struggling with the same decision now...if the decay is not very deep and not hurting the child, do the diet change and fluoride toothpaste treatment. No more sugar and candy, though you can use small amounts of raw honey at home. Also cut the juice out, it's generally too concentrated and high in natural sugars. Drink herbal teas instead, especially ones high in minerals. Eat LOADS of veggies. Keep diet high in protein, use lots of bone broths. Take a mineral supplement and cod liver oil along with organic butter (if you are not dairy-intolerant, otherwise, eat organ meats/shellfish). Basically, do an NT diet with these emphases.

But if the decay is too deep and obviously causing the child much pain, then I'd suggest finding a gentle pediatric dentist to do the work under GA.

[DevaMajka]

Thanks, both of you.
I think the only option we're comortable with is delaying as long as possible- even if that means he'll need caps instead of fillings.

We are starting (sorta slowly) on the NT diet. We've always eaten veggies at every meal, but perhaps I ought to focus on MORE veggies at every meal.
I need to cut out sugar, I think. Boy, that'll be hard!

And minerals- that's a whole new world to me. What type of mineral supplement do you use? Can you direct me to a good brand? Is it safe to take mineral supplements?

I don't really understand toddler tooth decay either. I ate pretty well during pg (lots of fruit, and other sweets, but also lots of veggies). No antibiotics. And ds is bf'ed. We did allow sweets (tryingto cut down, though), but no more than most of my friends, and I don't know anyone else with toddler tooth decay. hmmm...

[toraji]

Read this for optimizing the NT diet for children: http://www.nourishingourchildren.org
though they don't stress the veggies as much as I'd like...blended salads (cold veggie soups) are great for children who have difficulties chewing raw salad. Basically throw a salad in the blender with oil and vinegar dressing...I would put a handful of leaves in, add a bit of water and stomp it down with a celery stick, then after it was chopped up, add the celery and a carrot, some broccoli, anything that sounds good in a salad with olive oil, vinegar, salt and pepper to taste, pulsed till to your liking. A raw garlic clove is good in there too.

Re: minerals
The best thread about it is going on in the Vax forum-read it even though it's pretty long, it is extremely informative
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=406983
minerals are so absolutely important to proper functioning, including tooth remineralization. We take Total Mins from Country Life, though there are a couple other brands out there that sound good (like Solaray's rice amino acid chelated Mega Multi Mineral). You want a full-spectrum multimineral (not vitamins included, as synthetic ones are no good), along with trace minerals. I crush them and add them to porridges, breads etc. so that DD does not have to swallow a pill. Make sure to take with cod liver oil for natural vitamins D and A to absorb the minerals.

With tooth decay, you gotta hit it hard and fast, even if those changes may be difficult.