learning/behaviour disorder or normal for 4?

[Devaskyla]

Ds1 is 4 1/2. He occasionally does helpful things when we ask, but repeatedly does things he knows he's not supposed to, even within seconds of being told. He spits on the floor, jumps/bounces/runs on the bed, steals toys from his baby brother, etc. The other day he nearly poisoned his brother and we told him to never, ever give his brother anything without our permission. Yesterday, he tried giving him juice when I glanced away for a few seconds.

Dh and I are just at our wits end. Our only rules are about damaging people or property and he can't seem to follow even one of them for one day. I really wanted to UP, but we've explained until we're blue (not literally, obviously, just feels that way)

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I really need some kind of perspective. Does he seem normal for his age from what I've said, or should we be getting him evaluated for something. If so, where and any ideas what? I'm almost hoping there is a problem, because dh & I are going insane. We love him so much, it's awful not wanting to be around him at all, but that's how bad this behaviour is most days.

[cjr]

Do you think he's bored or trying to get your attention? Those are usually the two biggest reasons for a child to constantly missbehave like that. Just a thought. What is he like with other people when you're not around? That is a good indication. If he does not act the way you are describing when left with another adult, without you, then chances are he's trying to get your attention. My 6yo did and still does this. Really ever since we had ds. She will purposely do something she has been asked not to, over and over again. She will be very disrespectful of us and it's usually when she's feeling isolated or left out. She never acts that way when she's with my parents or dh's parents. The kids are always perfect when they are with them, but when they are with us...totally different story.

[cjr]

I just remembered a story about our oldest dd when she was 4. She was constantly testing us. Driving us mad with grief. Not listening, doing things she wasn't supposed to and nothing ever seemed to help the situation. I talked to our doctor and took her in for an evaluation thinking maybe she had a learning disorder or a behavior disorder of some sort. In the waiting room she was bouncing off the walls, not listening and really acting up. There were lots to keep her busy, but she still insisted on making mommy crazy. We walked into the room and in the corner was a box of toys. She went to the toys and very calmly picked one up, brought it to the table and played with it, and then put it back before taking another toy. NEVER had she done that before. She was so well behaved I swear she was not my dd. The focus of the meeting then turned to me. The pychologist and doctor started asking me all sorts of questions about our home life and how much time I was able to spend with her, if you dad was abscent or involved, and so on.

My point is that sometimes kids act this way around mom and dad because they are trying to get our attention. We always act upon negative behavior and rarely do we respond as dramatically to positive behavior. So for kids it's obious which behavior will get the strongest reaction.

[RedWine]

Ladies, thank for your responses. Not to hijack the thread, but I feel the same way about my 3 year old that the op feels about her 4 year old. Your responses are very helpful.

[maya44]

I completely agree that his behavior when you are not around is the key. If he acts this way around others, its time to have him evaluated. It may be normal, but it is time to check.

If, on the other hand, he is able to act totally differently around others, I think you can work first on strategizing about what you can do at home to improve things (more attention? more structure? less structure?)

[Devaskyla]

I'm really not sure how he acts when I'm not around, it's only happened a couple of times. Next time I let him play at the discovery centre while I do errands, I'll have to try to get more detailed info about how he was while I was gone.

Part of it could definitely be boredom. He's very bright and not in preschool (all the funded ones are full and we're considering homeschooling, anyway) and I spend a lot of time taking care of the baby (who's slowly getting to have brief periods where I don't have to be holding him). I was actually considering taking him to the discovery centre several afternoons a week. I know that doesn't get him more attention from me, but they have more room, more stuff and more activities than I can manage for him.

Dh is home all the time, due to disability, but he doesn't do much interacting, mostly focuses on the negative, so I guess that could contributing.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Devaskyla

Dh is home all the time, due to disability, but he doesn't do much interacting, mostly focuses on the negative, so I guess that could contributing.

My ds gets really crazy when dh is home but won't interact with him or gets controlling. The more controlling people are with my ds, the worse his behavior gets. But if he is treated with respect and consideration, and he's not tired, hungry, or bored, he's great. I think my dh is finally understanding that he can't just decide that one night he isn't going to play with ds after dinner. Another problem we've had is that dh doesn't always give notice that he is going to stop playing. If he stops too abruptly, ds feels bad and at loose ends.

[flapjack]

It sounds completely normal: and like a small boy's way of asking for something (at a guess, more responsibility.) Let him get stuck in and help with his brother- or spend umpteen hours building towers for baby to knock down, or share a plate of finger food with his brother. He is the BIG boy, after all, give him the status.
You said your only rules are about not damaging property: but running, jumping, bouncing on the bed aren't usually a damage issue. Would you consider sitting down and trying really hard to get your dh on board with a more positive style of discipline?

[A&A]

That's exactly what my almost-4-year-old acts like, at least sometimes.

A good book to read is The Mind of Boys.

[Devaskyla]

Originally Posted by flapjack

It sounds completely normal: and like a small boy's way of asking for something (at a guess, more responsibility.) Let him get stuck in and help with his brother- or spend umpteen hours building towers for baby to knock down, or share a plate of finger food with his brother. He is the BIG boy, after all, give him the status.
You said your only rules are about not damaging property: but running, jumping, bouncing on the bed aren't usually a damage issue. Would you consider sitting down and trying really hard to get your dh on board with a more positive style of discipline?

He actually helps quite a bit with the baby, as well as little things around the apartment, like keeping his toys tidy. I've let him try helping with folding the laundry, but he's not co-ordinated enough yet. He does help put stuff in the dryer and the coins in the machines, though.

We've had 2 beds with seriously damaged springs already, just from normal use. We used some inheritance money to buy a new bed after sleeping with 6 layers of padding over the mattress just to make it bearable on our old one for several years. We can not even remotely afford to replace this mattress and box spring if something happens to them and him bouncing on it constantly will damage it eventually, imo. I don't see how it wouldn't Especially the way he uses the foot of the bed as a springboard.

Neither dh or I are as gd as I'd like us to be, but we're working on it. We both have some serious verbal/emotional abuse issues to get over and I doubt we'll ever be up to my ideal, but we're trying. Just not spanking is a huge step, especially for dh.

Our hold list for the library is full, atm, but once it's cleared out a bit, I'll try to get The Mind of Boys out.

[A&A]

Slight clarification: It's The Minds of Boys (plural on "Minds" instead of "Mind" like I had it.)

One of the things that the book talks about is that boys really NEED to be physical.......do you have an place outdoors where you could let him run around at least a little bit every day? Or could you sign him up for a gymnastics or karate class?

[mama_mojo]

Just a side note- My understanding is that there is a testoterone surge after boys turn 4. This can fuel behavior that we might find challenging. The only "solution" I can suggest is more outside time or jobs that involve heavy lifting (to a 4 year old).