suspending a 5 yr old fot biting

[Aeress]

I have to ask....is this common in many places (to you knowledge?)
2 yr olds being expelled from care for biting (3x your out policy) and for a 5 yr old to be suspended for swearing or for biting? :
It makes me very sad to even read about this. I know that at the center that I work at (an accredited center, by NAEYC) we have a biting policy which states that we understand that this behavior is normal and that we will work with the child, parent and class to help find the route of the problem. Wr may ask to talk with a parent but we woulod never ask them to leave. We do call the parent of the bitee as well and let them know what the plan is.

I really disagree with the thinking behind expelling a child...it reminds me that there is still so much work to be done in discipline awareness/education and early childhood education.

[bellona]

Its my understanding that this is done for the safety of the other children. They don't expect the suspension to help the child learn, but maybe to get the parent to tackle the problem in a way/place that they aren't responsible for it. Bites can be really serious and I do agree that if I send my child to daycare they have a right not to be bit....but it does kinda make me sad. Making mom take off work to stay home with them cause they can't go to daycare doesn't help mom teach, but makes her impatient and stressed, I would think. But, most daycares are there to watch your kids, not to raise them...no offense to any daycare workers out there.

[boongirl]

I have a friend who's 1.5 year old was expelled from his daycare for biting. The parents heard that there had been biting and that the center staff were working with him. But, when a new center director came in, the very next time he bit, he was expelled. My friend came to pick him up on a Friday afternoon and was told that he had bit another child and that they had tried everything and he was not welcome back on Monday. She had to scramble to find him a new place to sta. Luckily, she had a lot of sick time accrued at work and could afford to take a week off to get it taken care of. But, it was extremely stressful for her.

On the flip side, if my child was in daycare and had been bit by another child, I would not be happy. If the injury required medical attention, I would expect the other parents to pay for it. I would expect the center staff to work with the biter. If it happened again, to any other child at the center, I would expect the biter to be expelled or I would pull my child out. So, the center is justified, in my opinion, to expel a child who is biting and not responding to redirection and gentle discipline strategies. The center needs to take care of all the children and a child biting repeatedly needs more help than a daycare center can offer. Those parents need to find a smaller group setting for that child and get some professional help to figure out why he is biting. This is exactly what my friend ended up doing. Her son stopped biting but they are still dealing with his very serious separation anxiety. Since she must work, it is a very stressful situation.

[blessed]

Yeah, it's a tough situation.

When she was 18 months old my baby was badly bitten on the back - left two rows of full thickness punctures from the upper and lower teeth, as well as a nice dark bruise - by a little boy in her class. The school has a policy of not revealing the biter, only that your child was bitten, which I understand. But it was pretty easy to know who had done the biting since there've been ongoing problems with aggression in this child.

Baby was pretty affected by the biting. She had new separation issues for a few days, trouble sleeping at night, and was obviously more anxious than typical.

Biting isn't cool. At all. It's dangerous and it hurts - physically and emotionally. I was pretty clear with the school that I expected absolutely no further incidents of this type, however it was that they were able to accomplish this. If they felt that they needed to ask this boy to leave the school to protect the safety of my daughter and the other children, then as far as I was concerned they had my full support.

Fortunately they were able to work with the boy and his parents and achieve better behavior control. It hasn't been easy for the teachers at all and I congratulate the school members for their dedication. They had to initially have an additional person in the room helping supervise the boy, and even now this child commands about 75% of the teacher's attention (out of a class of 6 kids), because he requires so much redirection. Of course, the school doesn't receive any additional compensation from the parents (combat pay?) for the extra work this child requires. And they had ample justification for dismissal if they chose (this had been one of many incidents). But they stuck with this kid and I think have helped him and his family in doing so.

[Fuamami]

Yeah, I've also heard of expelling, pretty common around here. I agree it's a liability/safety issue. Blessed, your daycare sounds great, that they would hire on additional help. I think most places are not willing to do that, unfortunately.

[hhurd]

Originally Posted by brendon

I really disagree with the thinking behind expelling a child...it reminds me that there is still so much work to be done in discipline awareness/education and early childhood education.

I'm with you Brendon. Not only does it not benefit the child to switch them abruptly to a new care situation, it can be disasterous for the family if Mom or Dad need to miss work to deal with it. Many employers are not understanding about these situations. Many children are in care because their parents need to work, not just for socialization. To expell very young children for normal behavior (yes, biting and swearing are normal), is disturbing to me.

NOT to say the biting is not a serious issue that needs to be dealt with, but expelling a 2 year old is an indication to me that the child care workers in that situation need more education and training.

As for for the implication that parents of children with challenging behaviors should pay more than the parents of more easy going children...yikes.

[AntoninBeGonin]

I think at least some of this (and related problems) come down to how few daycare teachers there are per students. I worked as a teacher for a year, mostly in the infant class, and in IL you can have 4 infants for each teacher, and even more kids per teacher as the kids age. How can one teacher supervise 4 infants? I guess it works in theory, but in real life it's impossible to keep an eye on all of them.

~Nay

[Susan Kunkel]

I worked in a daycare with a child whose behavior was a cry for help. He was very hard to handle.The parents could not see his need for help.The center finally had to say get him help before he can come back. They got him short time help.Thenhe was back to his old self.Sometimes school kick children out as a way to get them help
Susan

[blessed]

Originally Posted by hhurd

As for for the implication that parents of children with challenging behaviors should pay more than the parents of more easy going children...yikes.

Actually I didn't imply this. I don't think 'difficult' kids ought pay more than 'easy' kids. Too much variation in that equation.

But actually, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone who runs a preschool to ask the parents to pay for the extra charge incurred when the school is forced to hire a new individual whose sole task is to protect other children from your child's aggressive misbehavior. After all, someone's paying that person's salary.

The fact that the owner did NOT ask this boy to leave, but rather accomodated his special needs out of his own pocket is pretty darned commendable in my book.

[mama_mojo]

It is really normal for some kids to bite. It is not always a cry for help, although I do believe that is sometimes true. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but if a daycare needs to hire an extra person while a child is moving through a phase like this, it makes sense to me that the family would pay extra for this person.

Also, I'm not sure I believe it just has to do with ratios; I've known many biters who stayed home with Mom, althoug perhaps I've known more in daycare.

I feel sorry for kids being villified at such young ages for behavior that is normal. BUT, I would also be furious if my child kept getting bitten. I worry about my very best friend coming to visit because her little boy is a grabber and has hurt my baby with his strong hands, and I get all mad at that sweet boy due to my gut reaction to my baby getting hurt. I cannot imagine if I HAD to leave my child in a situation daily where she might get bitten. How very hard for everyone.

[Aeress]

While I don't want my child to be bitten, I also don't expect a one year old who is still learning through their mouth (oral stimulation) to not take a chomp on occassion. Yes, it is a physical injury but since most one year olds are not malicious to be malicious, I would work to resolve the problem.
I do see the difference in a 5 yr old biting and a two year old biting...two year old doesn't know why it is wrong, a five yr old does. They may bite out of fustration (over toys, language) or out of curiosity but rarley does a very young baby/toddler bite to genuinely hurt another person.

[charmander]

Actually I didn't imply this. I don't think 'difficult' kids ought pay more than 'easy' kids. Too much variation in that equation.

But actually, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone who runs a preschool to ask the parents to pay for the extra charge incurred when the school is forced to hire a new individual whose sole task is to protect other children from your child's aggressive misbehavior. After all, someone's paying that person's salary.

The fact that the owner did NOT ask this boy to leave, but rather accomodated his special needs out of his own pocket is pretty darned commendable in my book.

That is just ridiculous.

And who gets to decide who is challenging, or not? Who comes up with a checklist to peg these children? Where do you draw the line? How much extra should they pay? Let's say your child has a "challenging" week, and the next week he/she is fine? Do you prorate that week?

The mind boggles.

[mother nurture]

Originally Posted by blessed

Actually I didn't imply this. I don't think 'difficult' kids ought pay more than 'easy' kids. Too much variation in that equation.

But actually, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone who runs a preschool to ask the parents to pay for the extra charge incurred when the school is forced to hire a new individual whose sole task is to protect other children from your child's aggressive misbehavior. After all, someone's paying that person's salary.

The fact that the owner did NOT ask this boy to leave, but rather accomodated his special needs out of his own pocket is pretty darned commendable in my book.

I teach at a non-profit cooperative preschool, which is run differently than a daycare facility. However, we, like all other preschools and daycares in the area are offered a free early intervention program to come out into our schools and work with the children and families who may be struggling with behavior or other special needs a child may have. The specialists make recommendations to the parents and meet w/ us and give us advice on how to handle certain behaviors and needs of these children. I this program and feel that it is a wonderful service both to the teachers and family.

As far as the biting scenario...at our school we use positive discipline with the children. We try to never say "no." There have been children who have come to our program (it begins at age three) and have had behaviors that we struggled with managing. Most of these were impulsive behaviors. After more than half the year, meetings w/ parents, early intervention specialists, etc. we have had to ask families to leave. In these situations, though, I would not consider it expelling a child. These children needed a different program. Of course it was sad to see the child and his/her family leave our school (b/c it is a cooperative it is a close knit community), but I knew that it was the right decision. I will also add that beyond the child diplaying behavioral problems there is also the other children who are getting bit, hit, kicked, etc. These are the children who are concerned that little Bobby or Susie is going to be there and hurt them. There is also that issue of the safety of the other children.

It is a hard thing, though. I don't aggree w/ suspending a child or expelling a child b/c of behavior, unless the behavior is such that the child needs a different program, one tailored to his/her own special needs, which the current program can not provide. But, you also don't want the other children in the class to be scared of another child and be effected by these incidents either.

Sorry to ramble

[mother nurture]

oh...and I forgot to say, that even children who are at a preschool age can qualify for early interventions through the public schools. Those services are FREE just as they should be! As far as hiring someone in addition to have at the school full-time, I know that at our school we are unable to financially do that. I am not sure about other state funded daycare facilities/preschools, though.

And from my stand point as a preschool teacher w/ a special education degree (this is my first year teaching, however )- I would take into consideration the intensity, duration, frequency, etc. of the behaviors a child is displaying.

[heartmama]

When ds was 2 he was aggressive. It was a not a cry for help. He did not need special interventions or services. He was just a very physical 2 year old who had little impulse control, and displayed all his frustrations physically.

He was not like this at 3. By 3 he was extremely verbal and the hitting stopped. Now he's almost ten and he thinks I'm joking when I say he ever hit anyone in his life.

But at 2, he would never have adjusted to group care. Just leaving him would have been impossible. He probably would have torn the door down to get out and find me, hitting and kicking everyone in sight until I came back!

And it would not have been the fault of the teacher. Ds needed the constant resource of his own caregiver and helper in the world at 2, and there is no way a teacher with 2 dozen other children could have met that need. Impossible.

I'm not commenting on home vs. group care, or saying one is better. I am pointing out that ds actually *needed* a caregiver who could give him lots of undivided attention as a 2 year old, and I think this is a *normal* need for some 2 year olds.

I have met enough parents and read enough to say there are many 2 year olds out there who are not developmentally ready to share a caregiver with many other same aged children.

I think the same is still true of some 5 year olds.

And even older children, even some adults, do not thrive with groups of 30 peers sharing the same space and resources. There are so many options for lifestyles and careers in the world, it is odd to me that small children are expected to be so similiar.

The solution is idealized, yes, but it's still the solution~that each child have their needs met. Whatever that would be.

[indiegirl]

An 18 mo old biter and a 5 year old biter are two totally different scenieros, don't you agree? I would absolutely agree that the five-year-old biter is the more dangerous one, not just because of his size but because at five there should be a certain amount of reasoning going on. If a five-year-old cannot control his impluses enough to be around other children, he should not be in that situation at all.

A child under two who bites will do so because of a variety of reasons and there are many things that can and should be done to handle the situation. Sometimes they just need to outgrow it--but it isnt' fair to subject the other children to the biting, either.

My oldest dd was expelled from daycare for biting, btw. It sucked and was awful for everyone. Turns out she is deaf and was telling us in the only way she could vent her frustrations....

*sigh*

Jesse

[blessed]

Originally Posted by cmd

That is just ridiculous...And who gets to decide who is challenging, or not? ...The mind boggles.

I'm sorry about your mind being boggled.

Once again, I re-emphasized that I did NOT state that challenging kids ought be charged more than easy kids.

This is the case of a child who is so aggressive and dangerous that normal child to caregiver ratios aren't effective at protecting the safety of the other children. This is precisely the definition of a child who DOES require more specialized care.

If you ran a daycare out of your home, would you hire a fulltime person out of your own pocket so that the boy could have one-on-one care? At no cost to the parents? Of course you wouldn't.

My comment was in praise of the preschool director for choosing to absorb this cost and not force the parents to take their child out of the school or to pay for the child's tutor themselves.

Pretty ridiculous of me, I guess.

[hhurd]

Originally Posted by cmd

And who gets to decide who is challenging, or not? Who comes up with a checklist to peg these children? Where do you draw the line? How much extra should they pay? Let's say your child has a "challenging" week, and the next week he/she is fine? Do you prorate that week?

The mind boggles.

Yeah that.

"Your child pulled hair once and bit three times this week, so that's an extra $25, please. Oh, but I see here that you have a $10 credit for exemplary behavior last week..."

[LoveBeads]

At my daughter's preschool, children who were "difficult" were told that they had two choices:
1) have the parent come to school to watch the child for two weeks and if the behavior doesn't improve, the child leaves
2) hire a "shadow" (at the parent's expense) to stay with the child

"Difficult" as I wrote it is a child who hurts other children on a consistent basis whether it is through biting, hitting, pushing, throwing or verbally.

While this was never an issue when my DD was in school, it was an issue for a friend of mine whose child was consistently bitten (usually 3 times per week) by another child.

[Threefold]

As someone stated, an 18 mo and a 5 year old are in completely different categories when it comes to discipline. Should a toddler be suspended for biting? No, though the biting needs to be addressed and stopped. I've watched our preschool director deal with biting and when she has a biter, she is amazingly aware of that child AT ALL TIMES, all the while not impeding that child's play (she's a gem ) and intervenes whenever the child is frustrated, etc. At 5, a child should have some sort of impulse control, and if they don't, I think a suspension can be appropriate. In a public K class, we don't have much choice in the matter. Certain things = suspension as per district policy. A few years back, while teaching K part time, a student bit another hard enough to draw blood. IT happened under the care of my partener teacher, so I don't know the details first hand. The biter was suspended for a day. It was quite a big deal.