16 children - Page 90

[Kajira]

Originally Posted by Pynki

I think the defference is in WANTING to help a younger sibling and being told. here's your baby, I mean buddy while I go off with daddy to make a new bundle of squalling.

Big yeah that.

Like one of the shows when the baby was in the car seat on the stairs and one of the smaller boys grabbed it and it almost toppled and one of the older ones helped him, later that same child was struggling to carry the younger sibling in a back carry :
Seems he was the younger child's buddy : but he was in my view too young to be the older buddy, hell he needed a buddy himself.

I still don't understand why older kids taking on some responcibility for younger kids is bad- I'm not trying to irritate, I just don't get it!

I don't know if you have older kids, but there is a point where it's too much, when the older child becomes lil mommy/daddy and instead of looking to the parents the older child looks to the sibling, to me that's a point I as a parent do not want to ever cross in my family.
I want the older child to have and enjoy their childhood, without feeling like they are responsible for another, it's just too much to me to ask a child.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

I read most of this thread... and wow... there were so many thing to which I wanted to reply, but I had to read to see if it was mentioned later... I want my life back! D*%$ you for making this funny, inflamatory thread!!!!!!

Okay- point by point:

*The kids seem healthy and clean, and I believe they will all become fairly well adjusted people. lets face it- we will all screw up our kids in some way... if not with sposies or ffing, then with something else....

*I don't think we should be so crappy towards them on this board. Just like we expect not to be ridiculed for not circing, for bfing five yr olds, for our religion, for who we like to have sex with, for our sex or our gender... they should be able to expect the same respect.

*Perhaps some of their methods are not our style, but you have to marvel at a family that runs so smoothly!

*The older kids don't raise the younger ones. They help them dress in the morning and before bed, and they help with hsing- and we all know, one of the best ways to learn is to teach another. That is mutually benfitial and fabulous!

Okay... I couldn't refrain from sharing my pov after spending so much time catching up...

~Valarie~

p.s.- DH and I have 19 names picked out... we don't know how many will go to bio kids or adopted kids... but we're open to having as many as come

Rock on...I totally agree.

Congrats for making it through the thread!

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by Kajira

Lastly if I throw myself for financial gain on tv, more than once, esp if I am running as a one issue politician, I expect that not everyone will be kind towards me and mine, however until I go sell myself to Discovery channel, I am free from public ridicule, but one of these days when they decide to do a show on the path thru secondary infertility and the liberal, I'm sure I'll except the world view the same way the Duggars think of mine, laughing all the way to the bank.

It may open you up for ridicule.

However, we are all responsible for our reactions and have the choice NOT to ridicule them.

Sadly it seems that choice would only be appropriate to some as long as they agreed with everything they did.

And there is a difference in bashing and in disagreeing.

[Kajira]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

It may open you up for ridicule.

However, we are all responsible for our reactions and have the choice NOT to ridicule them.

Sadly it seems that choice would only be appropriate to some as long as they agreed with everything they did.

And there is a difference in bashing and in disagreeing.

If you think I'm bashing them you must take a look over at tvwithoutpity, it was linked to earlier in this thread, now that's bashing, I am being very respectful of them.

However I will not just be all nice and not speak my mind, when they are using Ezzo on their kids and blanket training them : Not even my husband or mother can shut me up when it comes to that, I don't support books stores that sell the books, I go head to head on other websites about the dangers of the teachings, the Duggars are as we can see here are respected by many, even here there are those who are willing to over look that abuse of their kids : I will NOT, and if the mothers here are an AP site can't say that blanket training and Ezzo is dangerous and that supporting a family cart blanche' who do it is wrong, that's a shame, but don't say not agreeing is bashing.

I don't agree with the buddy system as they have it set up, as I don't believe that when you tell an older child here's your buddy, your resonsiblity to bathe, feed, dress, help educate, that it's right, and no one here can say that's not parenting at some level.

Heck even my dh questions certain things about them, his big issue is "honey are those carseats safe? and are those kids supposed to be out of carseats?" he asks every single time they are on tv, and he's carseat stupid.

[ValarieR]

On the blanket training issue- I would never endorse hitting a child. However, I don't see the problem with setting boundries for children. If you never set rules and expectations for your kids, how can you expect them to be well-behaved kids when you can't be around? How is blanket training "abuse?" I don't see anything wrong with the concept of blanket training, as long as all corrections are vebal, and there is no hitting involved.

[messy mama]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

On the blanket training issue- I would never endorse hitting a child. However, I don't see the problem with setting boundries for children. If you never set rules and expectations for your kids, how can you expect them to be well-behaved kids when you can't be around? How is blanket training "abuse?" I don't see anything wrong with the concept of blanket training, as long as all corrections are vebal, and there is no hitting involved.

I don't have a problem w/ setting boundaries either. I just think they should be necessary and go further than the size of a blanket.

Heaven forbid, I take my 1 y/o out in public and he decides to be rude and move out of his 4x4 boundary.

[writermommy]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

On the blanket training issue- I would never endorse hitting a child. However, I don't see the problem with setting boundries for children. If you never set rules and expectations for your kids, how can you expect them to be well-behaved kids when you can't be around? How is blanket training "abuse?" I don't see anything wrong with the concept of blanket training, as long as all corrections are vebal, and there is no hitting involved.

THe problem is, the Ezzo type families DO hit the babies to get them to sit. Also, young babies are really too young to understand this concept. If they must be contained, for whatever reason, I'd rather see them in a playpen or something like that if mom can't be around for a few minutes. I've never used either with my own children. I let them explore the house when they are able to get around. Safety is ensured by closing doors and putting up gates near the stairs. I think forcing them to stay on a blanket for long periods of time is cruel and completely developmentally inappropriate.

I guess that one of the problems with this many children is that mom can't attend to the baby/toddler children. They need supervision and freedom to explore their environment. As far as having expectations and expecting them to be well behaved, that comes later. It develops naturally as the child is able to understand appropriate/inappropriate behaviors. A baby cannot understand this concept and shouldn't be required to do so.

[Kajira]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

On the blanket training issue- I would never endorse hitting a child. However, I don't see the problem with setting boundries for children. If you never set rules and expectations for your kids, how can you expect them to be well-behaved kids when you can't be around? How is blanket training "abuse?" I don't see anything wrong with the concept of blanket training, as long as all corrections are vebal, and there is no hitting involved.

As everyone else explained, Ezzo and his followers ONLY teach it with physical punishment as the enforcement and liberal amounts of ignoring the baby because it's trying to manipulate you just as bad in my book, do a search here and you should find plenty threads on the dangers of Ezzo, babies have died from their families following his teachings

Personally when kiddies are little, I find gates and play pens a much better option than beating them daily to train them to stay on a blanket.
Esp as we are talking about babies, I believe when Michelle Duggar talked about when she blanket trained the children were under a year, at a year my exectations for my baby was please please don't have an explosive poop while we are out for dinner
Certainly not sit for 30-45 mins and not try to get my attention while I chatter with a friend.

And can I just say rules and expectations are totally good with me, just when the child can understand what you are saying

[Kajira]

Adding a link to ezzo info and why he's so dangerous and his teachings abusive http://www.ezzo.info/

[swimswamswum]

We need an Ezzo/Pearl sticky at MDC. This comes up so often.

PS I can't believe this thread is still alive.

[ValarieR]

Originally Posted by Kajira

I believe when Michelle Duggar talked about when she blanket trained the children were under a year, at a year my exectations for my baby was please please don't have an explosive poop while we are out for dinner Certainly not sit for 30-45 mins and not try to get my attention while I chatter with a friend.

I've never heard her say that they were under one year, and she specifically mentioned in last nights show that she only does blanket training for 5-10 minutes at a time, and only with verbal cues.

I don't mean to upset people, but I see this very differently- When I see this family on TV, I see a group of people who love each other. I see children who are respectful, well behaved, clean, responsible, who dress modestly, and who are full of love.

Each of these children wants to be something different when they grow up, they aren't all the same. They each display different personalities. I see an amazing family!

I don't feel it is appropriate to bash people for their lifestyle choices. I don't condone gay-bashing, racism, or religion-bashing- why would it be okay to bash this family for their lifestyle?

~Valarie~

[Kajira]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

I've never heard her say that they were under one year, and she specifically mentioned in last nights show that she only does blanket training for 5-10 minutes at a time, and only with verbal cues.

I don't mean to upset people, but I see this very differently- When I see this family on TV, I see a group of people who love each other. I see children who are respectful, well behaved, clean, responsible, who dress modestly, and who are full of love.

Each of these children wants to be something different when they grow up, they aren't all the same. They each display different personalities. I see an amazing family!

I don't feel it is appropriate to bash people for their lifestyle choices. I don't condone gay-bashing, racism, or religion-bashing- why would it be okay to bash this family for their lifestyle?

~Valarie~

It seems to me that no matter what we say, some ppl will still call it bashing.
Even when ppl who know the Duggars have posted and said yes she does this or that, even when there are links on their website to Focus on the Family which is the website for James Dobson's teachings which assert the value of spanking children, when they follow abusive Ezzo teachings (because I don't see her getting on national tv and saying she spanked and I KNOW that Ezzo followers are very protective of his measures, I live in his home state)

I see a family where the respect and well behaviour you prize so much was forced out of the kids, see I look for more than clean, modestly dressed and responsible when I see older kids, I'm looking for individuality, those little sparks that most kids just seem to can't help but allow to shine thru.

And again I say, Gene Simmons family is on tv, Hulk Hogan's, Bobby and Whitney's train wreak, Jessica and Nick, and we talked about them, what they did and did not do, what we liked and did not like, the Duggars are no different!
There is no resonable expectation of any one not speaking about how we personally feel and I am peeved that their supporters like to come in here and throw around how we are bashing them, when MDC would not allow Ezzo discussions even if it was on blanket training with verbal clues, because the book is abusive and dangerous and even the lazy AAP has said this.
I advise you to educate yourself on Ezzo and Dobson and what they believe in, as you clearly have no idea what the Duggars are supporting and you in advocating for them.

[AngelBee]

Valarie...I see it different too

[ValarieR]

Originally Posted by AngelBee

Valarie...I see it different too

Thanks... I needed that.

[ValarieR]

As it turns out, I am not welcome here...

Originally Posted by Kajira

I advise you to educate yourself on Ezzo and Dobson and what they believe in, as you clearly have no idea what the Duggars are supporting and you in advocating for them.

I love coming here everyday, and I've been learning a lot, but it seems to me that anyone who disagrees with popular opinion is either fussed at or ridiculed...

I've read all about the evils of Ezzo, but I think allowing children to live without rules or consequences is just as bad for them. I've tried to ask about the grey areas, but apparently, no one is allowed to favor a more moderate parenting style : without having their heads bitten off.

Even though I have opinions to share, and questions to ask, I think I'm just going to let this thread die... sorry if my opinions irritated you, but I sort of thought that was the whole point of us all coming together.

~Valarie~

[AngelBee]

I am anti-Ezzo.

I do not judge people based on one facet of their existence. I take all of it into account.

That is why I still like the Duggars.

[LadyMarmalade]

Originally Posted by swimswamswum

We need an Ezzo/Pearl sticky at MDC. This comes up so often.

PS I can't believe this thread is still alive.

Exactly. Supporting the Duggars is nearly as bad as supporting Ezzo himself. The abuse which is condoned because the Duggars call themselves 'christian' is awful. The quiverfulls should be speaking out against them for the terrible things they do to their children.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Originally Posted by ValarieR

Even though I have opinions to share, and questions to ask, I think I'm just going to let this thread die...

Bwa ha ha! NO mere mortal has the power to make THIS thread die.

Except the mods, of course.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade

The quiverfulls should be speaking out against them for the terrible things they do to their children.

If they spank their children, I am against their discipline methods. I am not against them as people.

[Missy]

If they spank their children, if they use Ezzo or the Pearls in their parenting, then they should not be supported by anyone on this site. If you want to support them, bring it to another board. It doesn't belong here.