Noone wants to play with dd at recess (x-posted with childhood years Forum)

[gaialice]

Recently my 5 yo daugther has been complaining that noone wants to play with her at recess at her pre-school. I prepared a note which went into the "discussion box" and they will discuss it in the class. At the same time, I also invited some kids from her class at home and I was simply APPALLED at her behavior. For example, a little girl spent a long time assembling a very nice train track ring and was just starting to have fun with it when my dd stormed in to grab the train from her hands and destroyed the ring in the process! It appears that at recess too she is very authoritarian and likes to order other kids around. When they do not do what she says she immediately gets very angry and says things like you do not want to play with me, you are not my friend... I tried to explain to her that the aggressive behaviour she exhibits is making her friendless but she either does not get it or cannot stick to her decision to behave in a social way for very long...

[annekevdbroek]

That is really tough! It must be hard to see your daughter struggle with making friends. You mention that you've talked to her about not being aggressive/bossy. First, I'd keep up that message. It may take a while for it to sink in. I'd also give specific examples of what sorts of things she does that others may not like (e.g. Sara spent a long time making that train set. How do you think she felt when you messed it up?) and then go on with alternative behaviors (e.g. How would you have felt? What did you want? Were you upset that Sara wasn't playing with you? What other things could you have done to get Sara to play with you?). Maybe she needs a lot of information about what to do rather than just avoiding being bossy. I'm just coming from the thought that she lacks the skills and needs some specific instruction on how to more successfully play with other children. Do try to catch her being a good friend and point out her successes.

: Best wishes to you and your daughter!

[treemom2]

I wish I had advise for you mama, unfortunately I am in the same situation with my DD, not at school but in almost every social situation with peers. I hope we get some good ideas.

[Marsupialmom]

One on one play might be good. Something you can watch and cut her off at the pass when she is being bossy/wrong. She hasn't learned skills on being polite.

Also model behavior with her. How does she do at home with you? Is she bossy and getting her way at home? She get angry and family member/s give in? When she asked demandingly do you say "Please ask me the polite way?" Or "This is how we ask politely......" When she sees she can move you faster with politeness she most likely will use it faster.

[gaialice]

Thanks for the good advice. I try to model being polite and I insist on politeness at all times, although she is not exactly learning fast. I think you are right that I need to be more specific than just "play nicely". I try to.

One member of the family that does buy into her tactics is dd2 (3 yo). DD1 often threatens her that she will not play with her / be her friend or whatever and DD2 always gives in. I used to intervene in these dynamics, but recently I stopped because I was sick of having a huge role in a relationship that I believe is really just their own. I noticed since I stopped intervening so much they are getting along much better overall and playing together a lot more.

I think DD2 has figured that she has two alternatives: playing with dd1 on dd1's terms or having no playmate. Sometimes she just decides to play by herself, but when she decides she wants her sister engaged, well, she is willing to make a compromise.

Perhaps I should point out to DD1 that her relationship to her sister is a special one and she should not expect other children to do the same? DD2 is also at the pre-school but she does not go out of her way to include DD1 in her play either... perhaps she has enough of her at home!!!

[EFmom]

My older dd is pretty strong willed and she went through a period in K when no one wanted to play with her. After watching her interact with other children, I realized it was because she wanted to be the one to control all the play, to the point where she would want to dictate all the dialog to the others.

We discussed the problem, did some modelling of behaviorand some controlled situations as others have suggested. What really worked for her, I think, was the natural consequence of having no one want to play with her when she was being overbearing. It did take a few months, but utimately resolved itself.

She is now extremely popular and has tons of friends. So hang in there, it may get better in a few more weeks.

[lauren]

This sounds so hard... my firstborn is spirited and we have been down this road before!

One of the primary jobs of preschool is to help teach children social skills. I think one powerful idea is to have the teachers at her school intervene daily with her during the outside play time to teach her some new skills and to help her observe herself and the effect her behavior has on others. One way we learn how to observe ourselves is to hear others reflecting with us about ourselves. I am guessing that the teachers can do this for you, since most likely they are chilling out at recess and just allowing the kids to play. Make it one of your joint goals together for her at preschool. She might take it better from them than you also (at least that is always how my son is!!)

[Flor]

Dss had some issues with other kids when he was in kindergarten. One thing I did was have a lot of playdates and monitor them closely. Sometimes I was right there playing with them with the goal of backing off and letting them be. I never felt I should be letting them figure it out because they were just 5 and learning to be friends.

Another thing I noticed in our situation was the dss was an only child at the time. It made sense for the adults in his life to let him go first, let him win, let him choose the game, etc. But that was a terrible thing for him to go into preschool and kindergarten with that experience. I wish we had caught that sooner. It felt stupid to be the adult telling the child "No, I'm going to go first this time," but we had to show him that's the way we want him to play.

The good thing is the the issues were pretty much gone by second grade.

[gaialice]

Well thanks a lot, everyone, really. It helps to hear that for some kids the situation really did resolve itself. When I drop dd off, often I see kids going towards her to talk to her so, I do not think she is a total outcast. I think she has issues that are similar to those of other kids in the class. But there are a few things that worry me, and we need as you say to do more role-modelling and practice to resolve them. Also, I need to fix a meeting with the teachers to discuss the recess issue. In fact, I think recess is too long (1 hour) and unstructured and the space is very limited and there are not many toys and the whole situation is just not very conducive. I'll keep you posted...

[gaialice]

Sorry double posting

[Flor]

ONE HOUR UNSTRUCTURED RECESS???? In some ways that is cool, but in other ways it seems like all thekids would be beating on each other by the end of the time! When I taught first grade, recess was 20 minutes! Don't they need to be in class??? Why not just shorten the school day and let them go home?

[raksmama]

Ouch! What you and others are describing sound like my son too!
It is painful to watch!
My son almost 8 is an only child has a strong personality, is very spirted, and likes to be in control.
He still has allot to learn but he is slowly getting better.
A few things help like having him do structured activities. He is in a Montessori school where there is not that much unstructured free play anyway and he does Jui Jitzu a type of martial Arts. I even think team sports might be good.
Also, I find playing with older children is good for children like this.

Originally Posted by gaialice

Recently my 5 yo daugther has been complaining that noone wants to play with her at recess at her pre-school. I prepared a note which went into the "discussion box" and they will discuss it in the class. At the same time, I also invited some kids from her class at home and I was simply APPALLED at her behavior. For example, a little girl spent a long time assembling a very nice train track ring and was just starting to have fun with it when my dd stormed in to grab the train from her hands and destroyed the ring in the process! It appears that at recess too she is very authoritarian and likes to order other kids around. When they do not do what she says she immediately gets very angry and says things like you do not want to play with me, you are not my friend... I tried to explain to her that the aggressive behaviour she exhibits is making her friendless but she either does not get it or cannot stick to her decision to behave in a social way for very long...

[maya44]

I think some children really need to be taught in a very, very structured way how to interact with their peers. They don't "get it" naturally and it leads to a miserable existence.

But these children are often bright and outgoing and really want to understand. Unfortunately I am not sure the parent is the best person to teach. A bright child may be embarrased about their lack of these skill and not want their parent to be so clearly involved in the whole thing.

My bottom line is asking around to see if there are any 'social skills' classes that could help her.

I know one little girl who did this around here, and it made a world of difference. She did not even seem like the same child.

[taz925]

There is a program called the Social Skill Training Project in my area that has been helping my son learn how to interact with other children. It is a social skills play group of three boys who have a therapist facilitating the play. It has helped him so much.

In our area here is the link: http://www.socialskillstrainingproject.com/
There was a group offered to the special needs program students at my sons public school so you may be able to contact the Special Needs office to see if there is a group meeting in your area. There were no other K student so that did not work out for us.

I also agree that the teachers should be teaching your child how to interact with her peers. I find that most of the time, they are chatting and letting the kids fend for themselves.

Doreen

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

One on one play might be good. Something you can watch and cut her off at the pass when she is being bossy/wrong. She hasn't learned skills on being polite.

Also model behavior with her.

I was going to suggest these things as well. My son went through something similar around age 4-5 but it was because he was extremely shy and didn't approach other children and would rather play alone than try to make a new friend. It frustrated me to no end!! He is much older now and is still shy but after working with him on it he finally knows how to atleast join in with groups of kids and tries hard to find one or two he has something in common with on the playground during recess.

It really could just be your child's age. It could be something she will soon grow out of. But it wouldn't hurt to stay on top of it and encourage her to share and be nice around other children so she can make friends.

[gaialice]

Unfortunately, I live in Switzerland, and I never heard of anything similar being done here. I feel that what Maya says is just right, the description she gives in her post fits my dd1's personality very well. She is smart, outgoing, and she really tries to socialize. In other situations (not in school and not with school friends) she seems to do fine. Like when she meets kids at the playground she is very social and everyone seems to have a blast, she has a ton of really cool ideas for games... I do not know why this does not work out at recess.... and the same happens when we invite kids from the class over.... it does not work out.... perhaps she likes kids that are older than her better?
Doreen, thanks for the link. It looks like a great program, but I doubt I can ask the teachers to do that? I think you are totally right, they are doing very little for her so far. I was rather shocked when I first talked to the teacher and she said "Of course noone wants to play with her, she does not even want to go outside, and she hides from us to avoid going out!" Apparently she even punished her for hiding and not wanting to go in the playground. How obtuse is that? She could have at least asked her why she does not want to go out, right?
I really would like to discuss this situation with them. I tried to set up a meeting but one of them was not there this morning, so I hope tomorrow I'll manage.

[gaialice]

I need to get this off my chest, so I will write this here. I am sorry this is long but I am just soooo angry!!!!!

I decided that because the teachers were/are not taking this matter seriously at all, I needed to talk to the principal. Well, you know what she said:

1) that the school cannot plan everything, children need to figure things like that (exclusion!!!!) out on their own

2) children needed time to cool off (1 hour unstructured recess?????) and the teachers could not really be expected to propose games, other activities, because there were not enough of them available (read: they need to take their pause)

I told her that:

1) the unstructured recess was too long. The children could at least be allowed to be back in the class if they are bored/rejected while outside... !!!

2) there were a ton of things that the teachers could do in class (role play, puppets shows, talking about exclusion....) She seemed very new to all this.
She did not seem to be it was necessary, kids grow out of this anyway and they need to learn to experience frustration.

Increasingly, I think the problem is the way the recess is structured, the fact that my dd has a slight disadvantage b'se her mother tongue is Italian (the school languages are French and English, which are mother tongue for a lot of kids) and the lack of skills/competence/good will of the staff of the school, and the teachers of dd's class in particular. Of course, whatever the problems at recess are, they are carried over to dd's relationship to the kids of her class, wherever she gets to see them.

I'm honestly thinking that yes, maybe dd does have a strong personality, but she is just developing, perhaps a bit slow but then slightly so, her social skills. The real problem is not her, it is the school!

This morning she said that a girl I invited at our place on Sunday was just a liar b'se she said she wanted to be dd's friend, but that was not true, every time dd asked to play with her she refused. I offered sympathy but I suggested maybe she could offer to play another game or whatever. Well dd went up to her (I'm friends with her mom and I was talking to her) and the little girl covered her ears so as not to listen to dd!!!! So I talked to the mom and the mom talked to the little girl. But it is not our role as mommy to do this! I have another job!!!

I am sorry for the long ramble, I am not happy. I pay a lot of bucks for this private school...

[lauren]

Personally I think it is not a good sign if you are paying a lot of money for this school and they do not seem to have information about typical child development at this age. Most NAEYC accredited preschools are aware that many children need help learning social skills and that engaged teachers helping children learn these skills is the way to teach it. I am not sure this school is up to speed with state of the art early childhood education, but perhaps I am reading too much into it.

[gaialice]

I think you are totally right Lauren. However, the deadline for inscriptions for next year has passed and at this point, I am afraid we are stuck... I need to talk to other moms and decide what to do, it is the only option.

[raksmama]

I agree that it would be good to chnage schools if you could.I think there are Montessori schools all over Europe.I find They work on social skill more than other schools.It made the world of difference for my ds.Montessori school or not I think this school your daughter is at is not the right one.