Should I be worried?

[Siana]

My DS has 7 teeth in total -- 3 upper, 4 lower.
Two of his upper teeth -- on the right side of his mouth -- have a white area close to the gumline. I've tried to brush this away without much success. I then decided to try a washcloth, but he just yells when I even try to get a good look. I still brush his teeth, but I'm concered.

A little background info.:

DS nurses mostly on one side, and has since he was very young -- it sort of worked it self out like that since otherwise my DD would argue to nurse on the side he was nursing on. So, I now sort of have "his boob" and "her boob" syndrome (that really makes it sound horrible!!)

Anyway, my son nurses most often on my left side, which means the right side of his face is usually the side that gets the most exposure to milk. He nurses frequently through the night.

During the day, he has no bottles or sipply cups, or any other such items that would bring prolonged contact with any sweet liquids that he has (we only have 1/2 and 1/2 water and apple cider, and most often he doesn't even finish the 30 ml that I give him! -- not that I measure, but that seems like a good approximation). He does like to "store" food in his mouth for prolonged periods of time during and after meals. I'll have to take note which side he prefers.

I'm not sure if I should be concerned or not, or worse yet, worried. Please help.

[Siana]

I should have been clear that I don't think on-cue nursing (even at night) is a cause for cavities. I recently did a bunch of reasearch on the topic and now know that breastmilk is not a cavity-causing agent. Here is the thread where I started looking in to all this more: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...43#post4697743

It's no wonder my DP thinks I'm just builiding myself up, because a few weeks ago (before the research), I didn't think much at all of the whiteness on DS's teeth.

GTG

[Siana]

Anyone?

I analysed my sons teeth today (because he allowed me) and the whiteness can not be removed. It's in/on the teeth itself. I'm getting really anxious now. Isn't this how ECC starts?

Could someone please link me to some good pictures of progression of ECC so I can figure this out. Worst come to worst, we'll visit the dentist, but I really want to avoid that route. More than anything, if this is the start of cavities, I need to nip it in the bud now. WWYD?

[Chele]

don't think you mentioned how old your son is, but if he only has 7 teeth I am guessing he is around a year or so. My son had the same issue, at about the same time I believe and yes what you are seeing is the first sign of decay. I would take him in somewhere right away, because from what I have read decay can be stopped in the white lesion phase. My son has VERY weak teeth and his fell apart rather quickly after the white lesion appeared, his doc said she had never seen anything like it. We tried once to repair them and the repairs fell off shortly after. He is 2 1/2 now and has an appt. next month to have all four pulled. His mouth is quite frankly a mess. Both my husband and I have extensive family history of poor baby teeth so I fear my little one has got it on both sides. We brush his teeth 3X a day and he NEVER has sweets or juice, and yet the decay continues. You can actually see the weak spots on his teeth. I was lucky to see a very honest dentist who told me that the top front teeth are hard to repair and that the repairs tend to break, so I did not chose to put him under to have them capped and instead opted for composites done at the office. I read on another thread here that about a mom whose son had the same thing, but she chose to have the teeth capped under General anesthia and now the caps have chipped and the teeth have to come out anyway. I have to be honest with you that dealing with bad baby teeth is really hard. You always doubt yourself that maybe there was something you could have done, try not to do that, and good dentists who don't blame nursing can be hard to find. I suggest finding one who you can respectfully disagree with, I don't really share my sons nursing habits and I don't see the relevance. What you need is a nice gentle and respectful dentist. And lastly, make sure you are positive about any work you may do, get second opinions if you feel they are needed, and go with your gut. I hope I don't sound to know it all here, I am just going through this battle myself and this is what I have learned in the past year and half. But, to get back to your original question I think there is a chance to stop the decay when it is in the legion phase, but if it doesn't work don't beat yourself up about it, sometimes there is nothing you can do to save poorly formed baby teeth and weak enamel.

[Siana]

Wow. I can't believe what so many of the parents on this board have/are going through. Thanks Chele for responding, and you sound so strong despite the challenges in this matter

...I think there is a chance to stop the decay when it is in the legion phase, but if it doesn't work don't beat yourself up about it, sometimes there is nothing you can do to save poorly formed baby teeth and weak enamel.

Thank you for saying so. I just called a Children's dentist specialist and the person who answered the phone told me that what's happening is probably just "decalcification". She said it just meant the enamel in those spots were weaker which means greater precaution should be taken.

Now do I really need to go and shell out the $100 for the check up?!
So no sweets, no dried fruits, only water to drink, try to get him to swallow his foods soon after placing in mouth. What about fruits? I suppose they should be restricted too.

Anyway, I feel relived to hear all this. Now just to do the things I've already been doing

Thanks again Chele.

[Chele]

let me know what they say if you decide to go in. I think that decalcification could very well be happening to your sons teeth. I think that it happened to my sons teeth as well. It sounds like the office you called may be a good one. I have seen so many dentists, it was agony taking my son in there knowing I was doing everything I could to stop the decay, knowing my family history and just feeling badly that my son had to go through this, only to have the dentist blame me. God, I really had to work hard to keep it together a few times. I am thankful that I have had a lot of family to support me, including an aunt who has 5 daughters, 3 without decay, 2 with, all of whom she nursed long term through the night. And she is a La leche leauge leader so she knows her stuff about breastmilk. She was a huge help to me, this forum has been as well. I guess I just try to keep in mind that these are only baby teeth, he actually gets a second chance with this when his permanents come in, how many things can you say that about?
Good luck with everything.

[JaneS]

Instead of concentrating on taking things out of his diet, I'd be more concerned with putting minerals and such nutrient dense foods in.

[JaneS]

Can white spots be fluorosis caused by excess fluoride?

[Siana]

I really think my DS will benefit from a flouride-free toothpaste since then I can use more and througly clean his theeth everytime we brush his teeth. I've heard I can just use sodium bicarbonate (from David Suzuki) since that'll do the trick without risking him ingesting other unecessary ingredients.

Jane, I need ideas for nutrient/mineral dense foods?


DS is a really picky eater, and while I absolutley don't give my kids junk foods, my DS still tends to prefer foods that I feel are not very mineral and nutrient-rich (eg. he'll reject the eggs I'm having over cereal flakes that DP is : )

Cod Liver oil is a given.

I've heard of High-Vitamin Butter Oil with Activator X, but the prices are shocking!

I know bone broths are very benificial but we don't each much else besides chilcken, and occassionally turkey (I get bored with those broths too). My DP will flip if I bring home a big beef bone since we've decided as a family not to eat mammal meat. I've envisioned however if the local beef farmer I've been introduced to here were to toss out bones, I'd still rather take it home to prevent waste (waste reduction might superceed the no-mammal rule) I wonder...

I'm working on getting chicken liver (from pastured birds) but that seems near impossible here, especially this time of year (the farms seem to not be growing too many chickens this time of year, but I don't think anyone here pastures them anyway)

We eat lots of salmon (oily fish) here, and DS is definately a fan. Sometimes I even just mixed canned salmon with DCCC and the kids scarf it down.

We're _still_ working on our source for raw organic pastured milk, so we have no yogurt or kefir. We are getting some other cultured dairy such as the DCCC, cheese and butter (though they're hardly a main part of our diets)


As for non-animal sources of nutrient/mineral dense foods what good choices do we have?

We go through lots of Apples around here (DD eats at least one whole apple to herself everyday).

We eat Bananas, but since they're not organic, I'm always restricting their use somewhat due to high pesticide levels (I've heard higher than most other fruits).

Carrots have become our staples around the house. I have a real affinity for them these days.

Actually all of us here are fruit fiends. We can go through 3 or more fresh fruits each daily (except DS of course!).


I'll be haunting the WAP pages, and possibly the NT threads here to get more ideas...

[Siana]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Can white spots be fluorosis caused by excess fluoride?

Yes, white spots can be caused by excessive ingestion of flouride during the tooth forming years.

The white areas my DS has are close to the gum line, and form a very distinct white area there (right around the base of the tooth).

I believe it's quite easy to tell the difference between flourosis and decalcification by simply looking at the teeth. If I can find good pictures of the two conditions (when I get a chance to look), I'll post the links here.

[Siana]

Just found the "Curing Cavities with Nutrition" thread

Looks like I have a few things on track, but still plenty to work on...

[JaneS]

All about nutrient dense foods here: www.westonaprice.org

I boil down the bone broths very concentrated (a demi-glace) and use it as a sauce for the meats, DS won't drink broths either.

Nourishing Traditions is only $16 at Amazon, very worth it
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...014391-3921731

Grains can be very nutrient rich if they are whole grains and prepared properly (soaking). There are a couple of cold cereal recipes that were recently posted in the NT threads that looked great. (Can't wait 'til I can do grains again.)

Can your DS do oatmeal? Soaked overnight in yogurt or water with a bit of whey or lemon juice to reduce enzyme and mineral inhibitors. You can add so many yummy things to oatmeal: fruits/spices/nuts. We liked pineapple and coconut milk for pina colada style.

Good luck on the raw milk! There has been evidence that it alone can check cavities.

[JaneS]

Duh, sorry about the Amazon link, you are in CAN. Ugh that's why raw milk is so hard for you. Crazy. In so many other ways y'all are so advanced!

[JaneS]

Another thought, the key is the minerals in the diet plus the right vitamin enriched fats, so try to find grass fed butter. The X Factor is not killed by pasteurization, Pattyla and I were just talking about this in current NT thread.

[Hheffley7637]

Siana, from a dental perspective, it's actually very hard to tell the difference between mild dental fluorosis and hypominerilization- or hypermineralization. If you son has decalcification, that is something different- all these conditions can appear as a white area on the tooth. The dentist can tell if the tooth is decalcifying, more than likely though it's hypo/hyper mineralization, many kids have white spots on their teeth! Don't switch your kid to fluoride based toothpaste under the age of 2- they will swallow too much and the adult teeth can get fluorosis, not to mention fluoride is poisonous and it's hard to tell how much your child is swallowing. Go see your dentist, 100 dollars will ease your fears and then they will be able to really check that spot and see if it's soft, maybe it is just tarter build up also- that is white and doesn't rub off either. It sounds like you are doing an excellent job with their diet! Good job! I applaud you (I'm in dentistry and it's amazing what people think is okay to feed their kids! very sad). Good luck!

[whoamama]

THe white line is a softness which can lead to real decay. Don't panic, but do see a ped. dentist. Just continue cleaning your child's teeth at least once a day. Three of my four children have had decay, some extensive, as infants. I think it's just genetics--too many of their ancestors have classic British, weak enamel. Their secondary teeth are excellent.

[whoamama]

I also meant to mention that there is a program in ONtario to subsidise dental care for kids w/o insurance if you need it (CINOT)