Originally Posted by 2tadpoles
Well, I guess I'm not actually sure, because I don't equate morality with religion. I know plenty of non-religious people with high values and integrity, and lots of religious folks who don't, so the two things don't seem to have much to do with each other.No Morality Without The Bible?
I didn't mean to suggest that people had to be of a specific religion to be moral. I was just trying to trace the winding chain of subtopics of this thread--the 1st poster said that hs kids were perceived as dorky, and several people suggested that this was because hs'ing was dominated by religious people who gave hs'ers a bad name and "hypersheltered" their kids from negative influences. We were talking about sheltering in the sense of sheltering them from negative influences, which is associated with Christian hs'ers (though certainly not exclusively). So that's the kind of sheltering I was thinking of, not sheltering from danger or things that would scare them.
That was too long an explanation...
As to that article... I'm not sure we really want to go there. But the biggest fallacy I see in that line of argument (that people could figure out for themselves that certain things are wrong) is that people *still do those things.* If people were 100% rational creatures, and it were just common sense that they should behave a certain way, no one would behave differently. The fact is that while it is in humanity's and society's collective best interest for everyone to abide by a basic code of conduct, it is in people's individual best interests to do whatever they want and take whatever they can get their hands on. You can argue all day long about how respect for private property is the foundation of social order and disrespect for this will lead to chaos, and I will nod and agree with you in theory, but if you leave a pile of money unguarded on a table, it will be in my individual best interest to take it, and I will do so, *unless* I
a) am afraid of being caught and punished, or
b) have a sense of morality that tells me that stealing is wrong.
And we gd'ers know how flimsy and fleeting fear of punishment is as a motivator.
So I don't think it's a question of whether people have the logical capability to discern that vice is not in the collective best interests of society or humanity as a whole, but whether this rational knowledge alone is sufficient motivation for people to put aside their own selfish interests. A brief look at human behavior past and present would indicate that it is not.
I also don't think it's fair to credit curing diseases, etc. to "humanity." Those things were done by specific individuals with years of training and research. I suppose you could include their predecessors who provided that training and research, but at best you would be able to credit "the scientific community," which has never been more than a tiny tiny fraction of humanity as a whole. Most people throughout most of history have been illiterate. I've certainly never cured a disease or split an atom.
But it's all pretty irrelevant anyway. Faith, by definition, is something you believe without needing proof. People of faith believe what we do because we believe it's true, not because we think it makes good social engineering.