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My perceptions of HS'ed kids growing up is influencing my decision now...advice? - Page 8

post #141 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
I have read *parenting* books that say that parents should teach their kids about sex and reproduction without any moral context and actively try to undermine kids' natural sense of modesty from preschool age.
I am very tired and behind this week, but this just made me laugh. I've known very few naturally modest preschoolers. I've known many who were frequently naked and perfectly comfortable with that, as were the people around them. The parents, however, were fully clothed, and I'm pretty sure they hadn't been doing any modesty undermining... actually, I heard a lot more of the opposite, especially when sandboxes or older relatives were in the picture.

dar
post #142 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maevele
Can you give any examples? because i would be interested in finding educational materials with that kind of thing in them, but have never seen any.
Sorry, I don't really remember anything specific. I just remember looking for children's books or videos on ecology and being surprised at the number of Mother Earth/personification of nature references.
post #143 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
I am very tired and behind this week, but this just made me laugh. I've known very few naturally modest preschoolers. I've known many who were frequently naked and perfectly comfortable with that, as were the people around them. The parents, however, were fully clothed, and I'm pretty sure they hadn't been doing any modesty undermining... actually, I heard a lot more of the opposite, especially when sandboxes or older relatives were in the picture.

dar
I'm sure every kid is different, but I think it probably has a lot to do with what they're accustomed to thinking of as normal. My kids are fully clothed all the time, and so are we. It's never really been an issue.

About 2 years ago we went on a trip to the beach. L was 4 and hadn't been to the beach since she was a baby, and she was stunned at all the people wearing conventional swimsuits--"why are those people in their underwear?!" I told her that lots of people wore things that looked like underwear to the beach, and she just gave me this really floored look and said, "but, mamma, they're not wearing any *clothes*!"

So to address your point, I think if the kids are accustomed to running around naked all the time, and that's normal for them, then no, they probably aren't going to see why they should put on clothes in the sandbox or in front of older relatives. But if they're used to being fully clothed all the time nudity will seem strange to them.
post #144 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
But if they're used to being fully clothed all the time nudity will seem strange to them.
Maybe.... maybe not.

My XH and I are both fairly modest people. I don't wear head-to-toe clothing at the beach, but I don't run around my house nude, either.

But our kids bathed with us when they were small. We didn't prohibit them from running around nude, but we didn't really encourage it, either. I guess they followed our cues and stayed dressed for the most part.

Seeing a mama nursing a baby or a naked tot playing in the sprinkler doesn't freak them out, though.

I think nudity will seem strange to a child if the parents make a big deal about nudity.
post #145 of 193
Quote:
kids' natural sense of modesty from preschool age. [...] But if they're used to being fully clothed all the time nudity will seem strange to them.
That's hardly a natural sense of modesty, though, that's conditioned. Many of us as parents are always clothed and try keep our young children clothed to no avail , but we don't make a big deal about keeping the clothing on, nor act like it's immodest not to, and without that being taught the children are oblivious to it being an issue. That says to me that to be comfortable with the naked body is the default for young children.

Quote:
just another body part, no reason to be embarassed
Now, this *was* the overriding theme when I was being taught sex ed. Even when ten years old, though, I was able to recognize that the point was that private parts are not inherently dirty and sex is not inherently bad and menstruation is not gross. I don't see that message as being in conflict with the idea that sex is something that is done in private and that it is only for me to say whether someone touches my genitals. But then again, I never thought that because "the nose is just another body part" that that meant I should pick my nose in public, or that because "the face is just another body part" that it was okay for someone to touch it without my consent.

And it certainly didn't keep me from learning modesty. That was all around me -- my friends, my parents, everything that I was allowed to watch on TV -- all very strongly conditioned me to become modest (perhaps even overly so.)
post #146 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
To be honest, one of my fears that I feel afraid of that if I HS, that the other HS group parents will be really into sheltering their children and not let their kids play with my little nonreligious, vegetarian, silly with the potty humor (we say yes to captain underpants), likes swords and pirate play, no-santa-claus kid.
Oh, c'mon, now! Do you really believe that all homeschoolers are like that?!? Well, my friend, you need to come visit our homeschool group then.
post #147 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
That's hardly a natural sense of modesty, though, that's conditioned. Many of us as parents are always clothed and try keep our young children clothed to no avail , but we don't make a big deal about keeping the clothing on, nor act like it's immodest not to, and without that being taught the children are oblivious to it being an issue. That says to me that to be comfortable with the naked body is the default for young children.
Actually, I think that's conditioned too. If a child spent his early years in a nudist colony where everyone was naked all the time, seeing clothed people would probably be strange to him. We've always been clothed in front of our kids and kept them clothed, and other than a brief fascination with the ability to dress and undress, it's never been an issue.

Quote:
Now, this *was* the overriding theme when I was being taught sex ed. Even when ten years old, though, I was able to recognize that the point was that private parts are not inherently dirty and sex is not inherently bad and menstruation is not gross. I don't see that message as being in conflict with the idea that sex is something that is done in private and that it is only for me to say whether someone touches my genitals. But then again, I never thought that because "the nose is just another body part" that that meant I should pick my nose in public, or that because "the face is just another body part" that it was okay for someone to touch it without my consent.
Well, I don't agree with that message. I want my kids to learn the moral, spiritual, and emotional aspects of sexuality as well as, and not separate from, the physical parts. And I don't believe that "sex is inherently bad," but I do believe that sex outside of marriage is inherently bad--I don't expect anyone else to share this view and I would never try to impose it on anyone, but I don't think it's the place of a government-run school to weigh in on one side or the other.

Quote:
And it certainly didn't keep me from learning modesty. That was all around me -- my friends, my parents, everything that I was allowed to watch on TV -- all very strongly conditioned me to become modest (perhaps even overly so.)
From where I stand, the mainstream culture actively discourages modesty and encourages "free love." I don't think the public schools should be adding to that.
post #148 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tadpoles
Maybe.... maybe not.

My XH and I are both fairly modest people. I don't wear head-to-toe clothing at the beach, but I don't run around my house nude, either.

But our kids bathed with us when they were small. We didn't prohibit them from running around nude, but we didn't really encourage it, either. I guess they followed our cues and stayed dressed for the most part.

Seeing a mama nursing a baby or a naked tot playing in the sprinkler doesn't freak them out, though.

I think nudity will seem strange to a child if the parents make a big deal about nudity.
We never made a big deal about nudity, but we were also fully clothed all the time and didn't co-bathe with them. I hadn't explicitly said anything about pubic nudity but they just weren't accustomed to it.
post #149 of 193
Quote:
So to address your point, I think if the kids are accustomed to running around naked all the time, and that's normal for them, then no, they probably aren't going to see why they should put on clothes in the sandbox or in front of older relatives. But if they're used to being fully clothed all the time nudity will seem strange to them.
too fun to pass up ... we live in a warm climate and dd rarely wore clothes at home till she was 1.5 or so and she started wearing them only because we were in a colder climate for a few months. after that it became a habit. however i noticed yesterday when it was pretty warm and i had a cold and thus kept the fan off that dd said that she would remain without her clothes after her bath. So in spite of 2 years of full time clothedness, she has no problem with nudity either.

Unfortunately the kids in the playground pounce on anyone whose underwear shows even for a moment. She does not really understand what they mean though and I dont think it has affected her. But many of her dresses have become too short and when i try to explain that she will need to wear leggings if she wants to go out in those i feel bad for having to say that it is for modesty. <sigh>

In fact I have to remind her that I have to be fully clothed even in the house.
post #150 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
From where I stand, the mainstream culture actively discourages modesty and encourages "free love." I don't think the public schools should be adding to that.
Free love?! Sweet! Where? Where can I get some free love? It's not fair if you know where it exists but don't share with the others.

fourlittlebirds, I will happily come check out your HSing group when I am HSing next year! Do y'all have some free love?
post #151 of 193
Well, you know....

if God had wanted us to be naked, we'd have all been born that way.

post #152 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumi
too fun to pass up ... we live in a warm climate and dd rarely wore clothes at home till she was 1.5 or so and she started wearing them only because we were in a colder climate for a few months. after that it became a habit. however i noticed yesterday when it was pretty warm and i had a cold and thus kept the fan off that dd said that she would remain without her clothes after her bath. So in spite of 2 years of full time clothedness, she has no problem with nudity either.
But she didn't wear clothes consistently until she was 1.5, so she wasn't raised in an exclusively-clothed environment. I could be wrong, but I suspect that if she had been consistently clothed and raised in a consistently clothed environment, she probably wouldn't want to go naked.

Quote:
Unfortunately the kids in the playground pounce on anyone whose underwear shows even for a moment. She does not really understand what they mean though and I dont think it has affected her. But many of her dresses have become too short and when i try to explain that she will need to wear leggings if she wants to go out in those i feel bad for having to say that it is for modesty. <sigh>

In fact I have to remind her that I have to be fully clothed even in the house.
Why do you feel bad saying that? (I mean that in a nice way)
post #153 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Free love?! Sweet! Where? Where can I get some free love? It's not fair if you know where it exists but don't share with the others.

fourlittlebirds, I will happily come check out your HSing group when I am HSing next year! Do y'all have some free love?
I don't know where the free love is either, or the shoes that make you run faster, or the beer that makes you rich... I do believe they may be deceiving us.
post #154 of 193
Honestly, Brigianna, I feel like you completely brushed aside all my points. I hear what you're saying, that you don't like the way sex ed is taught in school, and that's fine and really not my concern. But if you are saying that for someone to teach that sex and genitals aren't inherently dirty and bad or to teach about the body parts in a purely clinical fashion is somehow the equivalent of advocating "free love", you're wrong. It is what it is, it's nothing more.
post #155 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
fourlittlebirds, I will happily come check out your HSing group when I am HSing next year! Do y'all have some free love?
Hey now, are you in Oregon then?! We'd love to have you. And yes, we have lots of free love! Doesn't cost a thing.

(ETA: recently both Captain Underpants and The Flying Spaghetti Monster were topics of discussion... yeah I'd think you'd fit right in. )
post #156 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
I could be wrong, but I suspect that if she had been consistently clothed and raised in a consistently clothed environment, she probably wouldn't want to go naked.
I was always consistently clothed, except when dressing or showering, but my child at 4 had no trouble going off down the street with a friend to visit some dogs - both of them totally naked. The vast, vast majority of the adults and older children I know are fully clothed except when dressing or showering, and yet the vast, vast majority of their children find nudity very appealing as young children. I think the difference is that they're not receiving messages - even subtle ones - that the human body is bad or shameful. If you're connecting nudity with "free love" (as in sex with a lot of people without an emotional attachment, I assume?) and if that's something you strongly disapprove of, it's no wonder your children figured out early on that nudity was verboten.

I did bathe with my child, but I think the message there was that we bathe in the nude, not that we walk down the street in the nude.

dar
post #157 of 193
We don't walk around naked or anything, but our daughter will only wear panties around the house. As soon as we walk in the door she's throwing her pants and shirt off. She has a friend whose parents have similar values as ours, and she'll play in panties at that friend's house too. She doesn't do it at my sexually repressed mother's house though, or at her sexually repressed aunt's house. The sexually repressed aunt has a daughter the same age as Tania, and she's just as sexually repressed as her mother. She goes into a closet to change her clothes, even if it's just a shirt or something.

You say modest, I say sexually repressed. I thought God made us in his likeness. Why all the Christian hype about covering that up? I like to strut my pregnant self in a bikini at the beach. My mom wants to cover me. I feel suffocated with all this fabric.
post #158 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
Honestly, Brigianna, I feel like you completely brushed aside all my points. I hear what you're saying, that you don't like the way sex ed is taught in school, and that's fine and really not my concern. But if you are saying that for someone to teach that sex and genitals aren't inherently dirty and bad or to teach about the body parts in a purely clinical fashion is somehow the equivalent of advocating "free love", you're wrong. It is what it is, it's nothing more.
Sorry, I didn't mean to brush aside your points. I do get what you're saying. But to me they are related. The (unspoken) sex ed message is that sex and sexuality are purely clinical, physical phenomena. I do consider this to be part of a "free love" culture and I don't agree with it. I want to teach my children about all the aspects of sexuality--moral, emotional, spiritual, and physical. And I want them to understand that these are all interrelated; you can't have one without the others. I don't think that's consistant with the clinical approach you're describing.
post #159 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
I was always consistently clothed, except when dressing or showering, but my child at 4 had no trouble going off down the street with a friend to visit some dogs - both of them totally naked. The vast, vast majority of the adults and older children I know are fully clothed except when dressing or showering, and yet the vast, vast majority of their children find nudity very appealing as young children. I think the difference is that they're not receiving messages - even subtle ones - that the human body is bad or shameful. If you're connecting nudity with "free love" (as in sex with a lot of people without an emotional attachment, I assume?) and if that's something you strongly disapprove of, it's no wonder your children figured out early on that nudity was verboten.
Not bad or shameful--private. Obviously there is nothing wrong with our bodies. But I don't think it's a positive value to show our bodies to other people except in very select circumstances. If you disagree, that's okay--I'm not trying to convince anyone else of my values and opinions. But I don't think conflating modesty with the belief that the body is bad and shameful is an accurate characterization.

Quote:
I did bathe with my child, but I think the message there was that we bathe in the nude, not that we walk down the street in the nude.

dar
Sure, but that's still nudity in front of another person. I feel like I would be setting a bad example to be naked in front of my kids.
post #160 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayapetunia
We don't walk around naked or anything, but our daughter will only wear panties around the house. As soon as we walk in the door she's throwing her pants and shirt off. She has a friend whose parents have similar values as ours, and she'll play in panties at that friend's house too. She doesn't do it at my sexually repressed mother's house though, or at her sexually repressed aunt's house.
But she does keep her underwear on, right? I'm not being argumentative, but you're really confirming my point. Your dd's standard of modesty may be a lot lower than mine, but she does instinctively know to keep her underwear on, which is a basic act of modesty.

Quote:
The sexually repressed aunt has a daughter the same age as Tania, and she's just as sexually repressed as her mother. She goes into a closet to change her clothes, even if it's just a shirt or something.
I do this too. There's nothing repressive about it.

Quote:
You say modest, I say sexually repressed. I thought God made us in his likeness. Why all the Christian hype about covering that up? I like to strut my pregnant self in a bikini at the beach. My mom wants to cover me. I feel suffocated with all this fabric.
"Sexually repressed" sounds like a mental illness, not a deeply held conviction. I'm not trying to talk you out of your beliefs or your choices. I totally support your right to live however you want. But why do people who disagree with our convictions so often compare them to mental illnesses? This seems intellectually dishonest.
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