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My perceptions of HS'ed kids growing up is influencing my decision now...advice? - Page 9

post #161 of 193
"Mental illness" sounds pretty accurate to me. Not something chemical, like bipolar disease, but something similar to PTSD, caused by an event or series of events.
post #162 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayapetunia
"Mental illness" sounds pretty accurate to me. Not something chemical, like bipolar disease, but something similar to PTSD, caused by an event or series of events.
Why? Why isn't it possible that we just have different opinions and beliefs from you?

I don't think PTSD is actually a mental illness either, but that's a whole other day's topic.

I think our society is far to quick to label non-conformist views and behaviors as mental illnesses.
post #163 of 193
Quote:
Why do you feel bad saying that? (I mean that in a nice way)
well i just think it is sad that i have to ask her to do something for reasons that make no sense to her now. i would rather she come to her own standards of modesty at her own pace but alas our society rushes this like so many other things ...
post #164 of 193
I do appreciate modesty, but I also think it can be taken too far, to the point of an aversion to and fear of one's body. Privacy is easily turned to secrecy, and a child who does not have accurate words for sexual parts and sexual behaviors, and feels it is not quite right to mention them is easily victimized.

I do teach about privacy, and I teach about our cultural rules about clothing. But we are also quite relaxed about nudity in our home.

I think modesty is natural for adults, who actually have clearly distinguished sexual features and less so for young children who are less influenced by hormones. (Individuals of course have a range of modesty comfort levels)

I would not like to be nude in front of strangers, or friends adn acquaintances--I do think that nudity invites sexual interest and excitement from people I'd rather not excite.

I think a healthy relationship with your body would mean that even if you prefer modesty, it would not actually be stressful to have someone see you nude accidentally or for some other reason. I think a healthy relationship with your body is one that you can see your body as beautiful to yourself, no matter how you choose to manage other people's opportunities to admire it. A healthy relationship with your body I think is also one in which the possibility of being seen doesn't really make one nervous, and therefore doesn't have to be avoided TOO carefully. Modest behavior can definitely add to the beautiful feelings of sacredness and specialness of sharing with one's beloved.

Mainstream society has especially through media obliterated the sacredness with images of greed and hunger on public display. I find sexual desire very attractive but not in the context of the distorted saturated public media images. I don't think that sex ed is a substantial problem influence in any way, but peers are a huge influence on sexual behavior and attitudes. That's who young kids in school really pay attention to.

Sex ed is just clumsy adult attempts to help take care of kids and address real dangers and concerns, without offending any one belief system. But however neutral they try to be, someone is going to be offended--offended by the neutrality, even!
post #165 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumi
well i just think it is sad that i have to ask her to do something for reasons that make no sense to her now. i would rather she come to her own standards of modesty at her own pace but alas our society rushes this like so many other things ...
Okay, that makes sense.
post #166 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by deeporgarten
I do appreciate modesty, but I also think it can be taken too far, to the point of an aversion to and fear of one's body. Privacy is easily turned to secrecy, and a child who does not have accurate words for sexual parts and sexual behaviors, and feels it is not quite right to mention them is easily victimized.
I don't doubt it happens, but I think this is a bit exaggerated.

Quote:
I do teach about privacy, and I teach about our cultural rules about clothing. But we are also quite relaxed about nudity in our home.

I think modesty is natural for adults, who actually have clearly distinguished sexual features and less so for young children who are less influenced by hormones. (Individuals of course have a range of modesty comfort levels)

I would not like to be nude in front of strangers, or friends adn acquaintances--I do think that nudity invites sexual interest and excitement from people I'd rather not excite.

I think a healthy relationship with your body would mean that even if you prefer modesty, it would not actually be stressful to have someone see you nude accidentally or for some other reason. I think a healthy relationship with your body is one that you can see your body as beautiful to yourself, no matter how you choose to manage other people's opportunities to admire it. A healthy relationship with your body I think is also one in which the possibility of being seen doesn't really make one nervous, and therefore doesn't have to be avoided TOO carefully. Modest behavior can definitely add to the beautiful feelings of sacredness and specialness of sharing with one's beloved.
I wouldn't say it makes me nervous, but I do avoid it pretty carefully. I'm not sure why this is unhealthy.

Quote:
Mainstream society has especially through media obliterated the sacredness with images of greed and hunger on public display. I find sexual desire very attractive but not in the context of the distorted saturated public media images. I don't think that sex ed is a substantial problem influence in any way, but peers are a huge influence on sexual behavior and attitudes. That's who young kids in school really pay attention to.
I agree; I just think sex ed is part of that mainstream culture.

Quote:
Sex ed is just clumsy adult attempts to help take care of kids and address real dangers and concerns, without offending any one belief system. But however neutral they try to be, someone is going to be offended--offended by the neutrality, even!
Right, which is why I think it should be left to the parents. I don't know what great harms will come to kids who don't learn sex ed--I think they'll figure it out somehow.
post #167 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
I don't know what great harms will come to kids who don't learn sex ed--I think they'll figure it out somehow.
Hmm, the whole reason why sex ed was started was because "figuring it out somehow" looked a whole lot like a little baby, and/or a trip to the doc for some itchy private places. I would probably exempt her because I know how sex-negative Sex Ed is, at least when I was growing up, and I would rather her not be learning how nasty and horrible sex is from some creepy phys ed teacher. By her generation, I'm sure it will all be about being abstinent.

And that's my early-morning Easter post. Condoms and chocolate bunnies, anyone? That is so, so wrong.
post #168 of 193
I went to a Fundamental Baptist boarding school, and was never taught sex ed. All I learned was that it was a sin to have sex outside of marriage. My mother also had a sex talk with me, which consisted of the same thing. By the time I got pregnant, I had never even heard of birth control. All I knew is that I had friends who had sex with their boyfriends and didn't get pregnant. I may sound like an idiot to you, but it really was the case that I was uninformed about birth control.
post #169 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Hmm, the whole reason why sex ed was started was because "figuring it out somehow" looked a whole lot like a little baby, and/or a trip to the doc for some itchy private places.
But why was this such a common problem? It seems like the establishment created a problem and then invented sex ed to "fix" it. What did people do for the hundreds of years that there was no sex ed, and no public schools for that matter? They figured it out and the species perpetuated itself.

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I would probably exempt her because I know how sex-negative Sex Ed is, at least when I was growing up, and I would rather her not be learning how nasty and horrible sex is from some creepy phys ed teacher. By her generation, I'm sure it will all be about being abstinent.
It wasn't negative when I took it, just very clinical. Of course this was before "abstinence-only" took over.

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And that's my early-morning Easter post. Condoms and chocolate bunnies, anyone? That is so, so wrong.
Thanks heaps for permanently altering the way I look at chocolate bunnies:. You are contaminating my pure mind .
post #170 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayapetunia
I went to a Fundamental Baptist boarding school, and was never taught sex ed. All I learned was that it was a sin to have sex outside of marriage. My mother also had a sex talk with me, which consisted of the same thing. By the time I got pregnant, I had never even heard of birth control. All I knew is that I had friends who had sex with their boyfriends and didn't get pregnant. I may sound like an idiot to you, but it really was the case that I was uninformed about birth control.
I'm not disputing what you're saying, but I think that cases like yours are very rare. Information about birth control is widely available for most people. Of course, some of us would say they aren't telling the whole truth about it, but that's another matter.
post #171 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna

Thanks heaps for permanently altering the way I look at chocolate bunnies:. You are contaminating my pure mind .
Hey, I woulda liked either in my basket - I got nuthin!

If you are on MDC and still have a pure mind...well...stick around... And how did I alter the way you look at chocolate bunnies? I didn't say to put the condom ON the chocolate bunny. You are aware what they're used for, right? It's not to protect yourself from the chocolatiers.

(I kid, I kid. I couldn't help it.)
post #172 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
But why was this such a common problem? It seems like the establishment created a problem and then invented sex ed to "fix" it. What did people do for the hundreds of years that there was no sex ed, and no public schools for that matter? They figured it out and the species perpetuated itself.
Well, if I've got my history correct, the sexual revolution was very much a revolution against the Establishment. The drive for sexual education was to supposedly by the young people to help young people - who no longer get married by age twenty, as they did even by the early 1960s - to have alternatives to getting pregnant early in life with new advances in contraception. I don't think the concern was so much that they wouldn't be able to figure out sex - it was that they'd get pregnant or sick from syphilis at a very young age. It happened in our grandparents' day too - but the girls always were humiliated and sent off to boarding houses to have the babies in shame, then give them up for adoption. Boys have never been shamed about sexual feelings or consequences though, from anything I've read or heard about.

I don't think the Sexual Revolution was abetted by media or government though - it was fairly grass-roots. I agree that it's become part of the Establishment as the hippies aged and took jobs in government, marketing, education, etc. The revolution isn't all bad though - It's also what led to the whole radical notion that sometimes you want to have sex but not get married, and that women can enjoy sex without marriage - thereby freeing them to do things like go to college, get jobs, etc. without denying themselves a basic human need. I am personally very, very happy to be able to currently control my fertility through contraception and not just willpower or dressin' ugly.

In all fairness - I got pregnant when not quite done with college. I had the baby, and got married after I finished college. I'm very glad the sexual revolution took place - I didn't feel obligated to get married as soon as I was pregnant. There was no shame involved, and we were able to make a choice that made sense personally and financially. I think 100 years ago, there would not have ever been a choice, other than being a bad girl or a good girl. And I am bad, but that's beside the point.
post #173 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
I'm not disputing what you're saying, but I think that cases like yours are very rare. Information about birth control is widely available for most people. Of course, some of us would say they aren't telling the whole truth about it, but that's another matter.
It's not available for people whose parents shield them from it. And I think your belief that my situation is rare is based on your belief that people in my situation usually just remain abstinent until marriage. I could name about 30 other girls in my class who got pregnant before they were married. It's not rare. And I can't name one girl in my class who actually waited until they were married to have sex.
post #174 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Hey, I woulda liked either in my basket - I got nuthin!

If you are on MDC and still have a pure mind...well...stick around... And how did I alter the way you look at chocolate bunnies? I didn't say to put the condom ON the chocolate bunny. You are aware what they're used for, right? It's not to protect yourself from the chocolatiers.

(I kid, I kid. I couldn't help it.)
Yes, MDC will contaminate a pure mind--just look at these icons : and this woman : is clearly naked under her sling...

To say nothing of all this talk about children, and as we all know, children come from SEX--children are a bad influence on our children!


Yeah, sleep-deprived humor...

Sorry the Easter Bunny didn't visit you; you should go out tomorrow and buy yourself some candy at half-price.
post #175 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Well, if I've got my history correct, the sexual revolution was very much a revolution against the Establishment. The drive for sexual education was to supposedly by the young people to help young people - who no longer get married by age twenty, as they did even by the early 1960s - to have alternatives to getting pregnant early in life with new advances in contraception. [...]I don't think the Sexual Revolution was abetted by media or government though - it was fairly grass-roots. I agree that it's become part of the Establishment as the hippies aged and took jobs in government, marketing, education, etc.
In some senses it was a revolution against the establishment, but those of us who are more cynical about the whole thing tend to think of it as a very pro-establishment phenomenon. I brought up "Brave New World" earlier in this thread--I think the establishment benefits from the people being distracted. Bread and circuses. And if you're Big Government or Big Business, the sexual revolution is the best thing that ever happened to you. All the people are out having sex, buying your products to make them more attractive so they can get more sex, consuming entertainment about sex, taking drugs so they can have better sex, and being completely oblivious to your robbing them blind and stealing elections.

But that's just the way I see it.

Quote:
I don't think the concern was so much that they wouldn't be able to figure out sex - it was that they'd get pregnant or sick from syphilis at a very young age. It happened in our grandparents' day too - but the girls always were humiliated and sent off to boarding houses to have the babies in shame, then give them up for adoption. Boys have never been shamed about sexual feelings or consequences though, from anything I've read or heard about.
I think there was significant pressure on the boys and men to "do the right thing" and marry the girls/women they'd impregnated, but you're right that the burden fell more heavily on girls and women. And that was wrong. But I would argue that the unequal and unjust and coercive application of the standards was wrong, not necessarily the ideas themselves.

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The revolution isn't all bad though - It's also what led to the whole radical notion that sometimes you want to have sex but not get married, and that women can enjoy sex without marriage - thereby freeing them to do things like go to college, get jobs, etc. without denying themselves a basic human need. I am personally very, very happy to be able to currently control my fertility through contraception and not just willpower or dressin' ugly.
Honestly, I think you touched on major crux of controversy here by calling sex "a basic human need." I don't believe that sex is a basic human need or that sexual self-control is wrong or mentally ill or anything like that. I actually *did* abstain from sex until I got married, so I know it's possible. I'm not saying that the choices you made are wrong, and I would go to the wall for your right to make them, but I'm skeptical of the mainstream culture's saying that sex is a basic human need. I don't think anyone has ever died from not getting any.

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In all fairness - I got pregnant when not quite done with college. I had the baby, and got married after I finished college. I'm very glad the sexual revolution took place - I didn't feel obligated to get married as soon as I was pregnant. There was no shame involved, and we were able to make a choice that made sense personally and financially. I think 100 years ago, there would not have ever been a choice, other than being a bad girl or a good girl. And I am bad, but that's beside the point.
I don't think anyone should be obligated to do anything with with regards to sex, reproduction, relationships, marriage, etc. So I'm glad you had that choice even though it's a different choice than the one I would have made. But I still don't think it's a good idea for society as a whole to dismiss the more traditionalist values out of hand.

And I think you're good, except for the chocolate bunny thing...
post #176 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by papayapetunia
It's not available for people whose parents shield them from it. And I think your belief that my situation is rare is based on your belief that people in my situation usually just remain abstinent until marriage. I could name about 30 other girls in my class who got pregnant before they were married. It's not rare. And I can't name one girl in my class who actually waited until they were married to have sex.
Maybe I'm missing something important, but how is it possible for parents to shield their teenage children from seeking out information about birth control, short of living totally outside society? I mean even if they don't learn about it at school or at home, and even if they're completely sheltered from all media, wouldn't most kids pick it up from their friends? Even if most of the friends were similarly sheltered, it would only take one and the word would get out I think. I don't doubt what you're saying but I have a hard time believing that there can be many people reaching their teenage years without ever having heard of something that is so fundamental to our culture.

But I do know that sexual abstinence can't be taught--it has to be a personal choice made from a personal conviction. So I have no illusions about "abstinence-only" sex ed.
post #177 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
And I think you're good, except for the chocolate bunny thing...
I think we are not communicating effectively here. When I say "chocolate bunny" I meant the kind you get at CVS or the like. A rabbit fashioned out of chocolate, if you will. What the heck are you talking about? Why do chocolate rabbits scare you so?

I am bad. I'm an ex-homeschooled librarian who got pregnant out of wedlock while in grad school. I mean, how much worse can you get?
post #178 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
I think we are not communicating effectively here. When I say "chocolate bunny" I meant the kind you get at CVS or the like. A rabbit fashioned out of chocolate, if you will. What the heck are you talking about? Why do chocolate rabbits scare you so?

I am bad. I'm an ex-homeschooled librarian who got pregnant out of wedlock while in grad school. I mean, how much worse can you get?
That's what I was thinking of too, but you're the one who brought up chocolate bunnies in the context of condoms so I assumed you were talking about them as some kind of sexual device...

How did I get into this conversation?!

You could be a lot worse--you could be a bank robber, a serial killer, a kitten eater, a Republican... There are plenty of worse things.

Yes I'm still sleep deprived.
post #179 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
That's what I was thinking of too, but you're the one who brought up chocolate bunnies in the context of condoms so I assumed you were talking about them as some kind of sexual device...
Ah ha, now it makes sense. I mentioned them because I thought it somewhat funny that I was having a discussion about sex ed on Easter Sunday, when I should ostensibly be in church or perhaps seeking out what the Easter Bunny done brung in the wholesome backyard, not even thinking about these sorts of things. Therefore, as in the humorous juxtaposition at-odds nature of a chocolate bunny and condoms.

Now though, now I'm going to have bad dreams. I had never thought of them as a sexual device. Ewwww! I wondered what you were talking about regarding defiling your innocent mind. Man, you're the one with the dirty mind!
post #180 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Ah ha, now it makes sense. I mentioned them because I thought it somewhat funny that I was having a discussion about sex ed on Easter Sunday, when I should ostensibly be in church or perhaps seeking out what the Easter Bunny done brung in the wholesome backyard, not even thinking about these sorts of things. Therefore, as in the humorous juxtaposition at-odds nature of a chocolate bunny and condoms.

Now though, now I'm going to have bad dreams. I had never thought of them as a sexual device. Ewwww! I wondered what you were talking about regarding defiling your innocent mind. Man, you're the one with the dirty mind!
I do have a dirty mind... your family-friendly explanation makes sense.

btw I learned what your username refers to. I had thought it was about your kidlet throwing spaghetti or something.
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