My perceptions of HS'ed kids growing up is influencing my decision now...advice? - Page 10

[callmemama]

[QUOTE/]I actually *did* abstain from sex until I got married, so I know it's possible.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what has drawn me into this discussion, but your comment caught my eye! My comment has to do with my personal experience and is not a reflection on you. When I was in high school I was the "good kid": no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, straight A's, athlete, involved in every organization available. I used to think I had a really strong personal moral code. Since then I've decided that I just hadn't gotten involved with a guy that I was so sexually attracted to that none of that mattered. My college years were a lot different! So yeah, I think its important that we talk to our own children about sex and abstinence and birth control.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by callmemama

I don't know what has drawn me into this discussion, but your comment caught my eye! My comment has to do with my personal experience and is not a reflection on you. When I was in high school I was the "good kid": no sex, no drugs, no alcohol, straight A's, athlete, involved in every organization available. I used to think I had a really strong personal moral code. Since then I've decided that I just hadn't gotten involved with a guy that I was so sexually attracted to that none of that mattered. My college years were a lot different! So yeah, I think its important that we talk to our own children about sex and abstinence and birth control.

I agree that we should talk to our kids, but my talking to mine about birth control probably won't be what you had in mind. I think there are often unknown serious side effects to hormonal birth control (along with a lot of other supposedly safe medicines). People should have the right to take whatever they want, but I think there should be informed consent.

[callmemama]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

I agree that we should talk to our kids, but my talking to mine about birth control probably won't be what you had in mind. I think there are often unknown serious side effects to hormonal birth control (along with a lot of other supposedly safe medicines). People should have the right to take whatever they want, but I think there should be informed consent.

I wouldn't promote hormonal birth control either for the same reasons you mentioned! Heck, I even think abstinence is a good idea, but I would still talk about "safety" in terms of pregnancy and SDT's.

LOL, I think its hilarious that this thread has covered so many topics other than the original.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by callmemama

LOL, I think its hilarious that this thread has covered so many topics other than the original.

Yeah, every once in awhile I peek in to see if it ever got back to the original topic . This is going to be The Thread That Never Ends at this rate... - Lillian

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by callmemama

I wouldn't promote hormonal birth control either for the same reasons you mentioned! Heck, I even think abstinence is a good idea, but I would still talk about "safety" in terms of pregnancy and SDT's.

Sure I'll probably talk about that, but I'll share my objections, too. Of course I am in the fringe minority for not believing that pregnancy is the end of the world either. The time in our lives when we're most fertile is the time when society tries the hardest to prevent us from having children. I don't want to send that message to my kids. Of course I would want them to get married first (I'm not against young marriage either, obviously), but even if they chose otherwise I wouldn't feel like they were "throwing their lives away."

LOL, I think its hilarious that this thread has covered so many topics other than the original.

And I think I've participated in all of them. :

[papayapetunia]

Originally Posted by AbigailsMomSarah

My daughter is 3 and my son is 15 months old. My 3 year old attend a parent co-op play school 2 mornings a week from 9:00-11:30 and she loves it! I love working in her classroom and serving on the parent board and being a part of her school experience. It is all play based and very developmental...If she could stay there through Jr High I would be in heaven, but it is just for 3-5 year olds.

So while it is still a bit off, I have been tossing the idea of HS'ing around. I was a pre-K teacher prior to having kids, I love the idea of following my childs lead and making learning exciting, and I don't like the idea of the wasted time in schools, standardized tests etc.

If she were to go to public school, she would go to a school less than a block from our house, which is an excellent school and very sought after (probably because of the good test scores, which I don't really care about). I just hate the idea of homework for a 6 year old and lack of music and art and hands on science.

But, here is my hesitation...

when I was in school not so long ago (I'm 26) the home schooled kids I knew (just a handfull, certainly not a large sample) were weird and very dorky. I feel horrible saying that, and please know I am not calling anyones child weird or dorky! I just can't get that images out of my head and when I think of homeschooling my kids, I worry about that. When I was in Jr high and HS you could tell the kids at church who were HS'ed and I remember thinking "I won't ever do that to my kid" and now, here I am, thinking about doing that to my kid!

Is this because I lived in an area where homeschooling was not done by many people, or because it was just a while ago, or was my sample of homeschool just very small.

I know that obviously, not all homeschooled kids are weird, and that fitting in is certainly not the most importnant thing in life but I wonder if anyone else had to get past a bias like this before deciding to HS their kids?

Just in case we want to get back to the original topic...

I had to get past my own bias before deciding to homeschool. I thought that homeschooling was only for fundamentalists who didn't want their kids to learn about condoms or evolution. But seeing my daughter in public school made me see things differently. When I did some research I found out that there were all these people homeschooling for all these different reasons.

I guess I don't actually have an opinion about what the kids are like, because I've only known one, a friend I had as a teenager. All I thought about her was that I wished I could be her. She had a curriculum, and a quota of work to do for the day, but it only took her a few hours. Then, while I was cutting school, she could legally come and hang out with us. I was so jealous.

[wryknowlicious]

I'm 25.
I was in public school for k-8. During those years I was geeky, dorky, awkward. I got my butt handed to me almost daily. I was even put in a mental hospitol in grades 5 & 6.

I was HS for highschool. I blossomed big time. LOL. I finished HS & graduated within 18 months.

As an adult I am confident, capable, responsible and socially adept.
i'm married to a wonderfull man, have two great kids, numerous friends and varying interests.
I doubt I would've developed so well had I continued my public school education.

going to a public HS everyday battling the social political war that I had since 3rd grade would've basiclly wounded me for life. Taking a break from all thgat BS allowed me to focus on who I was and what I wanted become.

it may not be for everyone but HS worked great for me.

also I suspect that alot of dorky, geekish home schoolers would be equally dorky geekish public schoolers.

[mamapajama]

I haven't read though all the responses yet, so someone may have already said this. I think that society in general views homeschooled kids as "weird" so I understand the op's problem. I went to eand public school, and I was definitely a dork. I also would love to homeschool my kids. If I ever mention it to anyone, they always respond by saying "they'll be weird if you do that" I laugh that off as ignorance, however, my husband who loved public school, was one of those awful popular kids who picked on the little guy, and failed all his classes, and cared more about what he wore than his grades, thinks homeschooled kids are weird. I am having a very difficult time with this as he listens to what all his very mainstream friends say.

[flyingspaghettimama]

Hm, so I've been thinking about this topic a lot and found two interesting references that might shed some light on our conversation.

In Linda Dobson's book about Homeschooling the First Year (can't remember the exact title) she talks about how HS'ed children might seem socially unsophisticated - which many people can read as "not socialized correctly." The difference is - as she points out - is that parents wholly control the social network and influences upon the children. So they might not know about who's cooler, Digimon or Pokemon; or they might not know the shizzle that all the kids are speaking nowadays. This could be for good or bad, depends upon your perspective and which influences you wish to mitigate. I don't really care if she likes mainstream, popular stuff as I have a soft spot in my heart for Comedy Central myself...but here we have the "highwater" correlation.

In Mel Levine's book A Mind at a Time, he talks about social skills in great detail...such as the ability to "read" another's feelings or emotions (i.e. the group is sharing a sad story and kid x comes along and makes a joke - not good); or to moderate their personality a bit (i.e. not being boastful or arrogant-sounding); working with people who supervise you; working through issues with people you don't like; being able to make a speech or be visible. He distinguishes between kids who don't mind being loners, kids who have friends although they're not popular and kids who have no friends or social ins, even though they want them. The kids lack confidence in their social skills, in essence. He says it's really important to develop the social skills (and he's talking about public schooled kids here) so that they can have friends if they should want them. And here we have the "has no idea how to associate with kids" correlation.

So I think this helps me to understand the whole situation better. I hope I was able to explain their perspectives accurately...basically, I don't care if my kid is a rock-collecting, highwatered "dork" , homeschooled or public schooled, as long as she has friends and the social skills to make friends and feel confident in her choices. I would feel not so happy if she had no friends, and was unable to make friends due to poor social skills. I have known people like this as a child and as an adult, and it was sad to watch them try and try and be so impossible to befriend due to horrible social skills (mainly, inability to communicate). There was a girl in my college who only talked about Star Trek, exclusively. She wore her ST uniform to class. She lived in her own world...

[ErikaDP]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

...basically, I don't care if my kid is a rock-collecting, highwatered "dork" , homeschooled or public schooled, as long as she has friends and the social skills to make friends and feel confident in her choices. I would feel not so happy if she had no friends, and was unable to make friends due to poor social skills. I have known people like this as a child and as an adult, and it was sad to watch them try and try and be so impossible to befriend due to horrible social skills (mainly, inability to communicate). There was a girl in my college who only talked about Star Trek, exclusively. She wore her ST uniform to class. She lived in her own world...

FSM,
I think that it is very interesting that so much of the conversation about whether to HS or not is based on social skill development(or lack there of).
I also find it interesting that many parents think that they can somehow change the natural inclination of their children's personalities and interests just by exposing them to many different kinds of children, adults and activities through schooling. I just don't think that it is that simple.
Although most parents don't want a child who has no friends or who is singularly interested in one topic(especially if it is seen as "weird"), I think the way we have tried though schooling to make children have a wide variety of friends and interests has been a failure for many children.
And I have found that unless there is a real respect for all children to be who they are in schools, neighborhoods, families, etc, even more damage can be done to a child by being expected to conform to a standard that is difficult(and many times impossible)than being friendless and socially immature.

Take Care,
Erika:
PS-To the OP-Great topic and thread!

[flyingspaghettimama]

Oh, I agree...in Mel Levine's book he is speaking about schooled children having these issues and basically, social skills coaching. I think his descriptions and solutions make sense. I would have liked social skills coaching when I moved from (admittedly isolated) homeschooling to public schooling. I had no idea how to make friends.

My conversation (that I hold with myself - when no one is around ) is very much about meeting my daughter's social needs and making sure she has many opportunities to gain and hone social skills, if we're homeschooling next year. But that's based on my poor hsing experience, and little else.

[Niamh]

I read through all 10 pages (skimming through about four that were just a few posters going back and forth ), so I should post if only to say "I was here!"

I had the same prejudices as the OP until about 4 years ago. The only hsers I knew growing up were my cousins, and they were WEIRD. And this is coming from someone whose family was the weirdest at our PS. They (like us growing up) were Mormon, but REALLY, REALLY Mormon. End-of-the-world type Mormons. Lived off the land, girls wore dresses and did household stuff, boys did outside stuff. (And for the poster who questioned this, Mormons-even 'liberal' Mormons stress female modesty much, much, much more than male modesty. In a recent address to believers Mormon girls were even counseled to dress appropriately so as not to become living pornography.)

They had serious anger issues and had a beyond difficult time interacting with others-no matter the age. Of course these were not the norm for even hs'ing, but it was the only exposure I had to hs'ing.

Then about four years ago I was talking to a lady at my then-church who was trendy, cute, and "with it". (she was so trendy she was wearing knee high leather boots with two inch heels under her calf length just-this-season skirt only a few days after giving birth) She had pulled her son out of kindergarten over a year before because she sent him to school and "he came back dumber". She said that he went to kindergarten knowing ABC's, etc, but none of the other kids did and teased him because he did. She (who had NEVER considered hs'ing) pulled him out only a few weeks in and didn't plan on sending him back. So then I knew one kid who would be the "trendy" hser.

Around this time I also found out that my cousin was homeschooling. She's what would be considered "devout" Mormon, neither liberal nor over-the-top. Always attends, is very active in her ward, does everything that is asked of her and is all-around a fantastic person. She moved from Oklahoma to Utah in February and opted to finish out the year hs'ing instead of dumping her kids in a ps for a few months. She planned on putting them back into ps in the fall. She said that their behavior moved to a much more desirable level and the amount that they learned astounded her. She's never looked back. Her kids are the coolest kids my dh and I know. They're comfortable with anybody and are well-behaved (with enough detours to, like my husband says, "remind you that they're kids"). They run the gamut from geeky to tom-boyish to girly cheerleader, all in one family. My cousin is fond of saying "If you're geeky as a homeschooler, you would have been geeky in public school."

Besides, my DH was one of the "cool" guys in PS and he's the one pushing for hs. I was beyond "geeky" in PS and don't want that humiliating experience for my kids, so I'm all for hs'ing also. My kids will hopefully hang out with kids that accept them for being cool or geeky.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

In Linda Dobson's book about Homeschooling the First Year (can't remember the exact title) she talks about how HS'ed children might seem socially unsophisticated - which many people can read as "not socialized correctly." The difference is - as she points out - is that parents wholly control the social network and influences upon the children. So they might not know about who's cooler, Digimon or Pokemon; or they might not know the shizzle that all the kids are speaking nowadays. This could be for good or bad, depends upon your perspective and which influences you wish to mitigate. I don't really care if she likes mainstream, popular stuff as I have a soft spot in my heart for Comedy Central myself...but here we have the "highwater" correlation.

In Mel Levine's book A Mind at a Time, he talks about social skills in great detail...such as the ability to "read" another's feelings or emotions (i.e. the group is sharing a sad story and kid x comes along and makes a joke - not good); or to moderate their personality a bit (i.e. not being boastful or arrogant-sounding); working with people who supervise you; working through issues with people you don't like; being able to make a speech or be visible. He distinguishes between kids who don't mind being loners, kids who have friends although they're not popular and kids who have no friends or social ins, even though they want them. The kids lack confidence in their social skills, in essence. He says it's really important to develop the social skills (and he's talking about public schooled kids here) so that they can have friends if they should want them. And here we have the "has no idea how to associate with kids" correlation.

So I think this helps me to understand the whole situation better. I hope I was able to explain their perspectives accurately...basically, I don't care if my kid is a rock-collecting, highwatered "dork" , homeschooled or public schooled, as long as she has friends and the social skills to make friends and feel confident in her choices. I would feel not so happy if she had no friends, and was unable to make friends due to poor social skills. I have known people like this as a child and as an adult, and it was sad to watch them try and try and be so impossible to befriend due to horrible social skills (mainly, inability to communicate). There was a girl in my college who only talked about Star Trek, exclusively. She wore her ST uniform to class. She lived in her own world...

Those social skills are important (I should know since I've had some trouble with them) but I don't know that there's any difference with school vs. homeschool in this regard. Schools don't usually teach these skills, they just expect the kids to figure it out themselves from interactions. But of course not all kids can figure it out, and those who can could probably just as easily figure it out from other interactions besides school. In fact I think it's easier to learn this by interacting with adults than with other children who are equally unsocialized. Also I think explaining it once works better than 5-6 yrs of trial and error.

Originally Posted by ErikaDP

And I have found that unless there is a real respect for all children to be who they are in schools, neighborhoods, families, etc, even more damage can be done to a child by being expected to conform to a standard that is difficult(and many times impossible)than being friendless and socially immature.

I absolutely agree. I think school made me more anti-social because of the impossible pressure put on me to socialize.

Originally Posted by Niamh

And for the poster who questioned this, Mormons-even 'liberal' Mormons stress female modesty much, much, much more than male modesty. In a recent address to believers Mormon girls were even counseled to dress appropriately so as not to become living pornography.

That was me--I'm not Mormon so I can't speak to that faith, but all of the traditionalist Christians that I have known or read, including Mormons, believed in modesty for both sexes. But because modest dress for men is normal in the mainstream culture, a modestly-dressed man doesn't stand out the way a modestly-dressed woman does, so women get more attention in that regard. I don't dispute that there may be doctrines out there that have a higher standard of modesty for women than men, but I've just never heard of them. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to call what some mainstream women are wearing "living pornography."