the "locker room" and other reason to Circ. - Page 2

[Sarah]

You could write to her and tell her that she needs an update on the demographic she is addressing, that many boys are intact, and when she makes comments about circumcision being done to prevent infections, she looks like a moron (can you say that?)- she is spreading a myth to justify circumcision, when infact there is no justification and a large portion of her classroom does not need their circumcision justified for them- because they are intact.

If she would like to do a service to all the boys (and girls) in her class, perhaps she could discuss Meatal Stenosis, Phimosis and Adhesions in a non-judgemental way. Boys only know their own penis, and some have a problem without even knowing it because they have no comparison.


Peeing Problems:

Meatal Stenosis is a narrowing of the pee-hole opening and it ONLY happens to circumcised boys. If they have difficulty peening straight, if it is a thin stream, or if it is really hard to pee- it's possible that he has it. it affects 9-10% of circumcised boys. It is corrected with a outpatient surgery that cuts the opening wider.

Adhesion Problems:

Circumcised and Intact boys can have adhesions, many of these can be relieved with application of some medicated ointment, if that does not work, there are surgical ways to relieve the adhesions. If the adhesion involves the scar line of a circumcision- it might be impossible to relieve without surgery. Some men suffer for many years from adhesions pulling painfully and also being difficult to clean- it is a common enough occurance and there is no shame in goin to a specialist to get assistance in having them seperated. Adhesions are never a reason to be circumcised, and no one should be coreced into a circumcision because of an adhesion.

Sometime intact boys mistake their frenulum for an adhesion- they think that a part of their foreskin is stuck on the underside of their penis. Boys should be instructed that this anatomy has a name, the frenulum or frenum, and that it has a purpose both errogenous and mechanical.

Tightness Problems:

Phimosis means that the tip of the foreskin is tight and the foreskin does not pull behind the glans when erect. Because there are so many stories about people who had to be circumcised because of phimosis, I am sure that there are many people who have phimosis who are afraid to see a doctor about it because they are sure that circumcision is the only thing that will help them- and not wanting to get circumcised- they just try to live with it. There are many treatments for phimosis now that did not exist in the past. About 95% of men with phimosis can have the tightness relieved without having a circumcision- most of them just with some ointment! Boys should be reassured that if they do have a problem with a tight foreskin that they can go to a doctor who understands they do not want to be circumcised, and explore some of the conservative treatments. Circumcision should never be considered lightly as it will change his own sexual feeling, function and the nature of his glans, it will also change the way his partner experiences intercourse. A large portion of people circumcised as adults, even ones who has problem foreskins, are NOT HAPPY about the way that circumcision changed their body.


Some boys are circumcised very tightly, when a baby is circumcised his penis is very tiny and circumcision removes 30- 50% of the skin of the penis. It is impossible for a doctor to know how much skin a boy will need by the time his penis is full sized. Sometimes circumcised men have painfully tight erections. Sometimes the pubic hair is pulled up onto the penis shaft. Sometimes the penis is pulled or bent by the tight skin. If a circumcised boy is experiencing any of these problems, he should understand that this is not just the way that his penis is, but it is the result of losing a large portion of his penis skin (what would amount to 15 sq inches on average) as an infant. These boys should be told that it is possible to file a lawsuit for damages. they should also be made aware of the techniques for foreskin restoration which will help him to stretch his remaining skin so that he can have an erection without pain.

I think that by simply addressing the various problems that some of the boys in the class may be dealing with without anyone's knowledge, she can help them, as well as teach valueable information about the risks of circumcision and the value of genital integrity.

I also recomend the book by David Gollaher for her to read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...65026532/all/r
ef=dp_bb_a/104-8659881-0282337

Love Sarah

[bxingirl]

Thank you Frank and Sarah for replying so quickly! I had wanted to run over to the school and give the teacher a piece of my mind. I'm still pissed but I am glad that I waited. I will print out some of this information and give it to her. Hopefully she doesn't have a problem with being educated!

Take care!

[Xenogenesis]

Two nicely summarized articles :

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-...rcson103.shtml

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-...cision85.shtml

[bxingirl]

Thank you. I'm copying it all!

[Xenogenesis]

It certainly seems to me you have the right approach, bxingirl.

[Teresa]

Wow, where to begin?

There can be no financial compensation large enough for having a part of your genitals removed without your consent. If someone said to you, I'll give you money to have this part amputated, how much would you want?

The use of the terms Whole, Intact and/or Natural refer to the human body as it is intended to be. 'Uncircumcised' implies that something is missing, when in fact, the reverse is true. Using Whole, Intact & Natural re-frames the whole issue.

Dealing with the science teacher will be a waste of time. It may help you feel better, though, to try to educate her. Chances are her husband/sons are not 'whole, intact, or natural' and she's unable, as so many are, to admit that it was a mistake. Better to talk to a social studies/world civ. teacher and do a study of circumcision rituals (& rationales) around the world. Female circumcision is illegal in the US even though people that promote it (here & abroad) do so on the same grounds that Americans promote male circumcision. Teens can and do 'get it' especially when they are able to see beyond just the cultural practices of the US. (There's no more reason to circumcise a baby boy than there is a baby girl.) If you're in CA, it's very likely that most of the kids--female and male--are whole and natural.

I never understood the locker-room thing. Girls obviously have drastically different breasts--there's probably more natural variation among female breasts than male penises. Teens are very self-conscious, but I don't think most teens sit around comparing their bodies quite so minutely as that, but I could be wrong. DH is intact and had no problems in HS--a non-issue. I'd be more concerned about the kids that aren't intact being self-conscious. It must be awful for them. I also don't get the inter-generational thing. How many families have father & son comparing penises? The adult penis looks entirely different from the child's. Even if you do the brazilian bikini wax thing, adult women's bodies are quite different from little girls. Of course some families are very comfortable with nudity, but I'd be willing to bet, they're more likely to all be intact & natural as well.

Anyhow, future generations will look back on the North American circumcision fetish as another strange social aberration much like foot-binding, neck-elongating, lip-discs and other forms of ritualized scarification, etc. Already, I can say that all of my children's friends are whole & intact, though I suspect a neighbor's child might not be. But then, maybe I'm just sheltered!

[SheBear]

Something occurred to me when I read the title of this thread....

If the only difference that is evident between our children and the majority of their peers is the shape/appearance of their genitals, then we, as parents, are doing something very wrong!

What say ye?

Blessings,

Sarah

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah:

I have this picture of a 19th Century America as a people who were stalwart, independent and free thinking. people who were willing and able to go against the grain and challenge conventional thinking. These were people who made America great. I see circumcision as a part of this. The doctors, with their limited knowledge and scientific resources were confronted with diseases and maladies that were deadly or deforming and were desperately searching for a cure. By happenstance, a boy recovered from one of these at the same time he was circumcised and with the limited diagnostic abilities they had at the time, it appeared that circumcision was the cure. The people who lived then saw this as new technology and embraced it. It just made sense. Now that it has been proven false, the modern day sheeple of America are not independent and free thinking enough to boot it out with blood letting and skull drilling.

We have become a nation of followers and my neighborhood is clear proof of that. It is an upscale area of successful people but the follow the heard mentality is apparent. Luxury German and Japanese cars are more common than Fords and Chevys. Women with no children drive behemoth SUVs and empty nesters live in 5 and 6 bedroom houses. People walk around in designer label plastered clothes like a billboard to their success whether they have it or not. Everybody tries to dress, look, work and live alike as if they have no mind or desires of their own. If circumcision were a status symbol, all of the children would be circumcised.

This is exactly what has and is happening all over America. Those who are doing it are doing it because they think everybody else is doing it. Just like the woman down the street that drives the SUV as big as a motor home doesn't really like driving something that big and parking it and paying the enormous gas bill does it because all of her neighbors are doing it, there are parents that are causing their children gut wrenching pain, deadly risk and permanent disfigurement simply because the neighbors are doing it and they MUST conform to the neighbors.

Where did the independent spirit that made this country so great go? How did we become such conformists that we will do this to our children?






Frank

[somemama]

Amen, Frank.

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Where did the independent spirit that made this country so great go? How did we become such conformists that we will do this to our children?

My point exactly. Your whole post was beautiful and eloquent (having browsed thru most of this forum, exactly what I'd have expected from you! )

That notion of comformity impacts more than just our decisions as parents, though. Our children see us caving to such social pressures--things that are shallow and meaningless--and in the face of our example, what words can we speak to them about honesty, integrity, and thoughtful stewardship of this lovely planet? Such lessons sound hollow to children when the parents are struggling daily to keep up with the Joneses.

I hope--I pray--that my children are obviously "different" from their peers. I hope they are more thoughtful, more compassionate, more merciful (to all creatures) and more far-sighted in seeing how their actions affect future generations.

However, I know it is hard to be different. I've dealt with it most of my life (thank you, Mom and Dad!). Thus, I also hope and pray that I am able to impart to my children the courage and conviction necessary to stand true and tall in the face of whatever ostracism, opposition, and oppression they might face.

Blessings,

Sarah

[Christy1980]

how did this turn into a non-conformist discussion? LOL!!

I'm 26 weeks with #1, (not finding out gender, btw), and my friend who is a Jehova's Witness asked me if I was going to circ. I said no, of course not, (he knows how anti-circ i am).

He said, "well what if your son wants to be circ'd like everybody else?"

I said, "Well, what if your kids want to celebrate Christmas like everybody else?"

I went on to explain that just like he and his family had chosen to be J.W.'s, alot of ppl choose not to circ. Both ideals seem so strange to alot of ppl, but there are alot of support systems out there for J.W.'s and intactivists. And as he well knows, his religeon is gaining more acceptance, slowly but surely, and so is the intactivist movement. (Ah, if only *we* could go door-to-door!)

Anyway, he got the point, and he doesn't tease me for being so anti-circ anymore. (but he still plans to circ any kids he has in the future : I'm still working on him )

[acystay]

On a mainstream board (moms expecting board) I post to, I posted the dangers and how circing was preformed. I mentioned that I wanted to inform moms and dads of what really goes on.

Well, you can only imagine the back lash that happened. I was told all these reasons you have mentioned.

One mom even told me that my son on his wedding night would be embrassed b/c his new wife would freak out at the look of him! Dh got a good laugh at that one and said that he hoped it was long before his wedding night that it came to that...meaning getting some not embrassed. I replied it was my duty as a mother to make my son proud of his body. She felt that circing would save him from this torture and she wanted to prevent it. I so wanted to reply that she's already teaching him that there is soemthing wrong w/ him.

And the locker room issue came up too and I was surprised some other moms mentioned that well, it's actually more embrassing to be caught looking at another boy at that age!

And of course the bible issue came up. This mom was telling me that God gave this as a rule of cleanilness. Good thing I know my Catholic history! She was saying it was Christian rite. HELLO! the OT was Jewish text. It was kinda interesting to have reply back again w/ OT texts.

Again the infection issue came up. I replied that I would teach him just like my dd how to care for his body. I was then told that I couldn't possibly know how well he was washing and that at 8 he wouldn't let me check him over. HELLO isn't our jobs as parents to teach proper hygeine to ALL our children? Of course I realize that I won't be in the shower w/ him at 8 cleaning his penis, but man, the times that dh and I do it before and clean him and brush his teeth teach him so that when he is older he'll know how to keep his body clean!

And then I was told I was using scare tactics on hormonal pg women. That I had no right to inform moms what was going on in a circing. And also I was told that I was un-informed that I needed to check out other sites (AAP, CDC, AMA) for information as well and post those stats too. So I did! And funny how the AAP doesn't recommend routine infant circing now. The AMA info was interesting too. It showed that many of the reasons given to circ. weren't true. But still I was "bad" for doing this!

Sorry this was long, but it does amaze me how many people will flame you just for your choice. I hate it when the post that I don't know what I'm doing or that infection will most likely happen b/c I didn't circ. my son. Why do people do this!?

Anyway, I thought I add some interesting reasons for circing and the roit I caused in cyber space

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Christy1980
how did this turn into a non-conformist discussion? LOL!!

I guess my original post was a bit off topic! Sorry!

[Frankly Speaking]

Christy:

Welcome back! We miss you here.

Your story of the J.W. friend surprises me. In my area, they are very strict interpretationists of the Bible and neither of the two J.W. boys I grew up with are circumcised. It surprises me to hear of a J.W. who supports it. You may want to mention the facts spelled out in the Bible. Apparently, it will come as a great suprise to him.




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Stacey:

Oday ouay eakspay igpay atinlay? (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)


You must realize you have committed the cardinal sin by challenging the status quo. Simply by mentioning that circumcision is not necessary, you have disturbed the peace. You are an infidel! The mere fact that you have not or will not circumcise your child threatens these women. That is especially true if they have already circumcised a child. The mere existence of your child's foreskin and the fact that he is not having terrible health problems tells these women that they have/will do something to their sons that is not necessary or beneficial. You are a threat! They do not want to hear this because they are comfortable with the status quo.

Keep up the good work you rabble rouser!




Frank

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally posted by SheBear
However, I know it is hard to be different. I've dealt with it most of my life (thank you, Mom and Dad!). Thus, I also hope and pray that I am able to impart to my children the courage and conviction necessary to stand true and tall in the face of whatever ostracism, opposition, and oppression they might face.

Sarah:

If you will teach your children to pass everything through the filter of reason and logic, they will follow their own course in the journey of life and eschew the ways of the crowd. In doing this, they will not be the odd-balls or three eyed geeks. Their calm rationality and reasonable acts will garner the admiration of their peers.

There is a common misconception that to be a non-conformist and independent thinker, you have to be obviously different. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those that are falsely trying to be non-conformists and free thinkers exactly conform to that preconcieved notion. The true independent thinkers and non-conformists fit in well with their group, succeed in their life endeavors and are held in high esteem by their peers. They are the leaders in business, government and science or any other endeavor they choose. They lead because they color outside the lines where others dare not go. They are respected for their level headed thinking abilities. Those abilities come from practice and application, not from their forefathers or from libraries. The most important source of this ability is a parent who sparks the desire.





Frank

[SheBear]

Hey Frank!

Very true and well-written, however, I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. Or perhaps I did not make it clear.

The "obvious differences" I am speaking of are not ones that force a young person to be on the fringe (though there's certainly nothing wrong with the fringe! ) or friendless. Rather, the differences I mean are ones of values--as I mentioned, thoughtfullness, compassion, mercy, global stewardship.

These things alone will not generally cause one to be ostracized; however, speaking up against what is popular (because it is not compassionate or thoughtful, for example) does often result in some form of opposition. That is what requires courage--not possessing the value itself, but the willingness to wield it in a forceful, positive manner.

For example, there was a time in high school where I was asked to "help" a friend pass a test. He had the same class a couple hours after me, and all he wanted was for me to give him a list of the questions that were on the test, so he could make a cheat sheet ahead of time. I refused; he was irritated. My lack of cooperation was not intended to hurt him or cause him to fail the test. I had a conviction that it would be wrong, and I stuck with that conviction. It would have been much easier, and more popular, to have gone along. Many I know would have. I didn't, and I was never asked to again...it got around that I was "different" and that it was pointless to ask me to cheat (I was, however, always willing to study with someone, to increase both of our chances at passing!).

In my work with children and young adults, (I used to work with juvenile delinquents in an intervention facility, and until my son was born I was a substitute teacher at about 10 schools, K-12) I have come to the conclusion that such values as I mentioned do indeed set them apart from their peers. Sometimes they are called Teacher's Pets, or Goody-goodies, or whathaveyou. Usually they are generally liked (as I was) but not "popular". And always, in some way or other, they are swimming upstream.

It is a very visible difference. I applaud them for their strength of character--that's exactly the kind of role models I want my children to look up to!

I hope this serves to clarify my earlier thoughts.

Blessings,

Sarah

Edited to add: I'm not sure I quite agree with the "logic and reason" part of your post....what is right is not always logical or reasonable. KWIM?

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah:

Carefully consider the difference between popularity and respect. They are not the same and they are not mutually exclusive either.

RE: "however, speaking up against what is popular (because it is not compassionate or thoughtful, for example) does often result in some form of opposition. That is what requires courage--not possessing the value itself, but the willingness to wield it in a forceful, positive manner."

If you speak up in a reasonable and logical manner, it does not have to be done with a forceful and positive manner. It can be wielded as a velvet hammer and that is a positive manner. A well thought out and presented position is always presented in a positive manner because the speaker is confident of their position. This comes with practice and application.

Your example of not helping a cheat built the respect of your peers whether you realized it or not and it did not hurt your popularity as long as you gave a reasonable and logical reason without condescention as to why you were refusing. If you weren't popular, it had little if anything to do with that.

RE: "Sometimes they are called Teacher's Pets, or Goody-goodies, or whathaveyou. Usually they are generally liked (as I was) but not "popular".

Yes, and I also knew those like that. If you will think back though, there were others who did exactly the same general things, only presented themselves in a different way and they were not called these names. These were the kids who were both liked and respected. Liked for the confidence they exuded and respected for what they stood for.

Anybody with average intelligence is a candidate for respect. They just have to know how to earn it. Popularity has more to do with physical attractiveness. However, a very physically attractive person can be very unpopular because their associates do not respect them. Respect and confidence can greatly enhance a person's perceived attractiveness and in turn their popularity. Any amount of physical attractiveness will only enhance respect for a short time.

I believe what is right is always reasonable and logical. Please give me one example of something that is right that is also unreasonable and illogical. I can't think of a single example.



Frank

[Christy1980]

it's so interesting that i got dirty looks from someone today at the same time this discussion is going on. ok, it's a bit more OT, but that's ok...it kinda goes with being flamed....

Some girls that i work with were asking me ?'s about shaving, (i don't shave btw) and this other woman came up and started talking about how madonna was skanky and scummy for not shaving in the early 80's. I asked her if she thought i was either of the 2 because i don't shave. She asked if i flaunted it, and i said, what if i did? mind you i did not show her anything. we were just talking. she looked disgusted with me, then rolled her eyes at me. I asked her what had offended her and she had no answer, she just said that her daddy was a marine and she was the baddest b*tch in the block and she knows how to make a bomb. I said so do i but i don't use my pit hair. LOL She just walked off muttering something about me, but i couldn't hear what. : I've been stewing about this ever since we left work. what a jerk!

So was she threatening me or what? I'm thinking about calling the manager and complaining about it. I asked her what offended her and she starts talking about her fighting abilities and how she can make bombs???

Frank~~my JW friend was born catholic originally, and his family was catholic until he was a year old and the JW's knocked on their door. he said his parents circ'd cuz their dr thought it was best~~as they often do. But he listens to me better than most ppl. I guess if you are going to go door to door and want ppl to listen to you, in turn that must make you an understanding listener as well, LOL! but i don't think he quite gets it yet.

[Sustainer]

I don't shave, either.

Originally posted by Christy1980
she just said that her daddy was a marine and she was the baddest b*tch in the block and she knows how to make a bomb.

WTF?? :