the "locker room" and other reason to Circ. - Page 3

[Christy1980]

Devrock~~~that's what i'm saying!!!

was it a threat or what? I'm complaining to the evil boss about it, but i doubt anything will be done about it. I have *got* to quit this job!

[Xenogenesis]

I don't shave either. I find it interesting many myn find the prepubescent look attractive. Personally I don't find appeal in that thought.

Christy - Is your buddy baptised or is he just now working his way to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses? He sounds misinformed to me.

[SheBear]

Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
I believe what is right is always reasonable and logical. Please give me one example of something that is right that is also unreasonable and illogical. I can't think of a single example.

Frank:

Well, one example that springs to mind is the biblical story of Abraham. He and his family had lived in Ur for years, were happy, comfortable, and prosperous, when all of a sudden, God (a God Abram had never heard of before!) spoke to him, essentially telling him to pack up everything and leave. Didn't even give him a map....just said "start walking, I'll show you where to go."

There wasn't a lot of logic or reason in deciding to just pick up and leave what was a good life. Only faith.

Later on, Abraham is commanded to sacrifice his son--his only heir. And he went the distance....again, not logical or reasonable, but listening to God and obeying, even without full understanding? IMO, definitely the right thing to do.

Even more remarkable was Issac....here he was, a strong, young man, in his early 20's, full of strength and with a bright future ahead of him...and here comes Dad with a knife! Now, obviously Issac could have physically overpowered the old man Abraham, and yet, he willingly submitted to his father. There was no logic or reason....only doing what was right, which was obeying his father and trusting in God.

A more modern example: I had a great job just out of college. I worked with abused children (birth to age 12) in a crisis shelter. The pay was adequate, the job was emotionally very fulfilling, the location was good, I liked my co-workers, and had a good chance for advancement. Most of all, it was a job that felt worthwhile, like I was making a difference in the greater scheme of things. However. The schedule interfered with my ability to go to church and worship regularly. I had to quit. Quitting a job I loved, that met my financial needs while also helping society...most would consider that an illlogical and unreasonable decision. But I had to do what was right, which meant honoring my commitment to my church.

Another (IMO obvious) example: Love. Love rarely follows any rules of logic or reason, and yet, choosing to love someone is nearly always right....I'd even go so far as to say that it is always right.

My point is that Logic and Reason are fine, but must always be tempered by our values and priorities. In this sense, there can be no such thing as truly imperial logic.


As for the rest of my post, I have to admit that I'm a bit confused. Having reread my posts and your replies, I still am unable to tell what I've said that you disagree with. I find myself agreeing with most of what you've written; I don't see how your thoughts have conflicted with mine.

Quite frankly, I think that you are arguing merely syntax. I think that we are saying the same things, but that you prefer your choice of words to mine. Fine; I can grant you that, as I have obviously been unable to adequately frame my thoughts in a way that you can understand.

To try to get this slightly back on topic, I will reiterate my original post. When I have been questioned about my decision to not circumcise my son(s), and the "locker-room" argument comes up, my response has been "If the shape of his penis is the only way my son is different from his peers, then I am probably doing something very wrong!"

(Actually, the only time I have used that was while talking to my SIL at a Christmas party where we were watching a half-dozen small children fight over who got the most toys.....it did make her think! )

Blessings,

Sarah

[Nathan1097]

Originally posted by Last Minute
I don't shave either. I find it interesting many myn find the prepubescent look attractive. Personally I don't find appeal in that thought.

Its not about looking prepubescent. I could explain it here, but I don't think I will. lol Not really the topic for the board.......

[Sustainer]

For some people, I think there IS a subconscious desire for a prepubescent look. For some other people, it's about looking as un-manlike as possible (men have more body hair than women, so we accentuate the difference).

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah: (Shebear)

What got all of this started is the discussion about can you be non-conforming and be popular and respected among your peers. As it applies to circumcision; can you be non-conforming (intact) and be popular and respected by your peers.

I won't go into the Biblical example because religious discussion is not permitted here. While it could probably be discussed between the two of us, there would be others who would possibly take it over the line so we'll just avoid that.

In the job situation, you made a reasonable and logical decision. You weighed the positives of the job situation and weighed the positives of the spiritual situation and the positives of the spiritual outweighed the positives of the job situation. You also weighed the negatives of those situations and found the negatives of the job situation outweighed the negatives of the spiritual situation. You knew that you would be happier and more fulfilled by changing your situation. You made a reasonable and logical evaluation of the situation and made a change. That change was the right thing to do and as a result, your peers have respect and admiration for you.

In your example of love, you do not choose to love someone, it just happens. It is the result of a mutual attraction and reason and logic has little, if anything, to do with it. That probably explains the 50% divorce rate and high rate of single parent children. That is clearly not right and it is also clearly not reasonable and logical and it will not gain the respect and admiration of your peers. I, myself have fallen in love and by using reason and logic, have seen that they were relationships that had fatal flaws. I used the results of reason and logic to determine that these relationships should be ended. The reasonable and logical decision was right because it avoided making someone I cared about very unhappy, avoided children from a broken marriage and avoided my inevitable unhappiness. This was a reasonable and logical decision. It was morally and ethically right. While my friends and former lovers may not understand this, I think they respect me for it and I think I have their admiration. I have yet to severely impact anyones life in a detrimental way. It was reasonable and logical and right.

My whole point is that by teaching children to evaluate things from a reasonable and logical perspective, they will always make the right decision if their thinking is correct. This will gain them the respect and admiration of their peers and they will be accepted and popular regardless of what their penis looks like. You used reason and logic to come to the right decision about helping your classmate cheat. As a result, you possibly raised the ire of this particular classmate but you gained the respect and admiration of all of the others.

Cutting off part of the sexual organ of a child to make him popular is not a reasonable and logical decision and will not win him the respect and admiration of his peers and will not make him popular. The reasonable and logical decision to leave that part there is the right decision and will not affect his popularity if he has been taught to use reason and logic to make the right decisions. Any possible teasing that may happen once or twice will be handled with aplomb and the child will be able to evaluate the presence of that part with reason and logic and will be able to understand he is far better off with it than he would be without it. He will have admiration and appreciation for the reasonable and logical thinking processes his parents used to come to the right decision.

By applying some reason and logic, I believe I have come to the correct conclusion that my assertion that what is reasonable and logical is always right is correct . . . . . Your counterpoint!





Frank

[muldey]

Oh wow,there are other non shavers out there!!!!!I am the only one I know.(Hey,everyone already thinks I'm crazy,my son is intact,we don't vax,we had a homebirth,etc)My dh has no problem with it,he thinks hair is natural, not gross.


Sorry for being OT,it just surprised me to hear that other women don't shave!

[Sustainer]

Yes, my dp doesn't have a problem with it either, as I tried to tell Ann Landers:

http://devrock.5u.com/custom2.html

--Scroll down to "Natural Beauty"

I'm going to start a new thread for this in Talk Amongst Ourselves.

Edited to add link to thread:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=85589

[SheBear]

Frank:

There's way too much for me to respond to in your post for me to keep quoting, so I'm just putting your words in red. To everyone else, please forgive the length.

What got all of this started is the discussion about can you be non-conforming and be popular and respected among your peers. As it applies to circumcision; can you be non-conforming (intact) and be popular and respected by your peers.

Well, that may explain the trouble right there. See, IMO, this was never a discussion (at least on my part) about whether one can be non-conforming and still be popular and/or respected by one's peers. My point was that it is quite likely that my son will be teased or made to feel different in some regard long before penis shape were to ever become an issue. That by the time my son is old enough to be in a locker room situation (and since we will homeschool, that should be quite awhile away), he will have long since learned how to hold himself with pride and assurance, knowing that such differences are superficial and unimportant when compared to character traits.

Understand that I am not saying that a foreskin is superficial and unimportant. Merely that if someone chooses to think less of my son because of a perceived physical difference, then he would do well to not give that person's shallow opinion a second thought.

I won't go into the Biblical example because religious discussion is not permitted here. While it could probably be discussed between the two of us, there would be others who would possibly take it over the line so we'll just avoid that.

I carefully read the sticky about religion before posting what I did, and I am confident that I did not abuse the rules of posting on this board. I mentioned a familar story from a religious text, but I dealt with it in a historical context only, not in a religious or doctrinal sense. I neither promoted one religion above any other, nor disparaged any religion. However, if a moderator of this discussion thinks that I overstepped the boundaries of this forum, I will be more than willing to apologise, and to edit or delete any offensive material from my post.

Barring that, the examples I used were quite relevant to your question....my purpose was to illustrate that logic and reason will always be slanted by a person's cultural, religious, and personal values and belief structures--by what one sees as "right". Whether you agree with Abraham and Issac or you do not, they made judgements based on their understanding of right and wrong. Just as we all do. All the rules of logic and reason have no bearing, except in relation to our individually-held values and beliefs.

Thus, it is not possible to merely "teach your children to pass everything through the filter of reason and logic" without first giving them a framework of understanding about right and wrong. And the framework of beliefs and values that they are given will undeniably shape their processes of logic and reason.

In the job situation, you made a reasonable and logical decision. You weighed the positives of the job situation and weighed the positives of the spiritual situation and the positives of the spiritual outweighed the positives of the job situation. You also weighed the negatives of those situations and found the negatives of the job situation outweighed the negatives of the spiritual situation. You knew that you would be happier and more fulfilled by changing your situation. You made a reasonable and logical evaluation of the situation and made a change. That change was the right thing to do and as a result, your peers have respect and admiration for you.

Yes, I used logic and reason, but only as they pertained to my perception of what is right. As far as my peers having respect or admiration for me, that is not always true, nor is it relevant. It would be nice to think so, but not necessary for me to continue doing what I know is right. Just as I hope that my children will learn that popularity/respect/admiration from peers should not be factors when deciding what is the right thing to do. Nor can they be justification for taking the easier course. In the end, it is self-respect (which only comes from doing what you know is right) that keeps one's shoulders straight.

In your example of love, you do not choose to love someone, it just happens.

I hope you don't honestly believe that! I disagree strongly. Lust "just happens." Sexual desire "just happens." Love is a choice every single day. Chemistry or mutual attraction can trigger interest in a person, but from that initial interest, one must make the choice to love the person and to manifest love toward that person. It is the very attitude that you mentioned--that love "just happens" and can therefore just as easily unhappen that has led to the high divorce rate. Too many people believe that love should just always be there, and they make no commitment to continue loving a person after the lust and desire fades...so when it does, the relationship fades, too. That sort of relationship has nothing to do with love. Like those failed relationships you mentioned, those kinds of connections are based on lust, desire, selfishness (what can I get from this person), and possibly some affection, but not love. True love--the only kind worthy of the name--always goes the distance.

It is the result of a mutual attraction and reason and logic has little, if anything, to do with it. That probably explains the 50% divorce rate and high rate of single parent children. That is clearly not right and it is also clearly not reasonable and logical and it will not gain the respect and admiration of your peers.

Again, I fail to understand why it is so important to "gain the respect and admiration of your peers." Should this be the standard by which we judge if our decisions are right ones?

I, myself have fallen in love and by using reason and logic, have seen that they were relationships that had fatal flaws. I used the results of reason and logic to determine that these relationships should be ended. The reasonable and logical decision was right because it avoided making someone I cared about very unhappy, avoided children from a broken marriage and avoided my inevitable unhappiness. This was a reasonable and logical decision. It was morally and ethically right. While my friends and former lovers may not understand this, I think they respect me for it and I think I have their admiration. I have yet to severely impact anyones life in a detrimental way. It was reasonable and logical and right.

Again, your reason and logic is slanted by your set of values and beliefs. Certainly I agree that there are relationships that cannot continue, and it is most compassionate to end them as soon and as kindly as possible. At some point during these relationships, you came to the realization that the connection was not important enough to continue the effort of loving the other person. So you stopped. It was a choice, and I don't doubt that it was the best choice. But please don't tell me that "the love just faded away" like so much pixie-dust. That is a fallacy we learn from watching too many Disney movies.

My whole point is that by teaching children to evaluate things from a reasonable and logical perspective, they will always make the right decision if their thinking is correct.

"if their thinking is correct." Exactly what I've been trying to say. Logic and reason only work if your thinking is correct. That is, if you keep logic and reason within the framework of your belief structure.

This will gain them the respect and admiration of their peers and they will be accepted and popular regardless of what their penis looks like. You used reason and logic to come to the right decision about helping your classmate cheat. As a result, you possibly raised the ire of this particular classmate but you gained the respect and admiration of all of the others.

Again, the all-important respect and admiration of others...why not do what is right--and teach your children to do what is right--for it's own sake, without thought of any external reward? Because the truth is, while you may indeed occasionally find that someone admires and respects you, that is not always--and I daresay not even usually--the case. Just ask all the moms who are trying so hard to do what is right by not caving to the pressure to circumsize their sons. Ask them if their peers, their husbands, their inlaws, their doctors, show them admiration and respect for sticking with what they see is right. Ask them if, in the end, the admiration and respect is what they really crave. Or do they just want to protect their little boys, regardless of what others might think?

Personally, I don't care if anyone ever shows respect for my decision. Perhaps someday my son will grow up and say "gee, thanks for not letting them circ me, Mom." But truthfully, I don't even need his thanks. I'd rather that it be so normal and natural and expected in his mind that the alternative--that his parents would have allowed him to be mutilated--would never even occur to him as a possibility.

Cutting off part of the sexual organ of a child to make him popular is not a reasonable and logical decision and will not win him the respect and admiration of his peers and will not make him popular. The reasonable and logical decision to leave that part there is the right decision and will not affect his popularity if he has been taught to use reason and logic to make the right decisions. Any possible teasing that may happen once or twice will be handled with aplomb and the child will be able to evaluate the presence of that part with reason and logic and will be able to understand he is far better off with it than he would be without it. He will have admiration and appreciation for the reasonable and logical thinking processes his parents used to come to the right decision.

I agree with every word in this section, though again I don't feel that the "reward" of respect/popularity/admiration from others is relevant.

By applying some reason and logic, I believe I have come to the correct conclusion that my assertion that what is reasonable and logical is always right is correct . . . . . Your counterpoint!

I have no "counterpoint", because I had thought that we were trying to reach a mutual understanding, not that we were involved in some forensic competition. IMO, argument merely for it's own sake is not a profitable use of my time. I do hope that I have finally been able to clarify my thoughts.

Blessings,

Sarah

[Sustainer]

I agree with Frank that you cannot help who you love or don't love. It's not a switch that you can turn on or off at will. It's something you either feel for a person, or you don't. You cannot MAKE yourself love someone, and THAT is why there is such a high divorce rate.

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah, I think we are mostly in agreement but I will make some comments.

I believe love does “just happen.” I can’t imagine seeing someone and making a conscious decision that I was going to love them. Love is an unconscious thing and is well under way long before we recognize it. Don’t confuse love and lust. They are different things even though lust can become love and they can happily coexist. You just don’t use reason and logic to decide to fall in love. Also, love and commitment are two totally different things. Love is automatic and subconscious until you recognize it. Commitment is conscious and while it is often automatic, sometimes it takes positive action to honor that commitment. Love and commitment can certainly be mutually exclusive, just not ideally.

My point of “gaining the admiration and respect of your peers” is that it comes as a result of doing the right thing. That respect is not the goal but the result. The goal is to live your life right so that you have positive feelings about yourself and a clear conscious. If you try to have the admiration and respect, you probably won’t. People see through that.

RE: “At some point during these relationships, you came to the realization that the connection was not important enough to continue the effort of loving the other person. So you stopped. It was a choice, and I don't doubt that it was the best choice.”

Not exactly. I came to the realization that those traits and actions were destructive to the relationship and that they would eventually destroy the relationship and the love. I still loved those women and still have some love for them although it is no longer a romantic love. I saw destructive (to the relationship) behaviors and made a conscious decision based on what was logical and rational to end the relationship. There was never a decision to stop loving them. I don’t think you can make a decision to just stop loving someone any more than you can make a conscious decision to start loving them. Considering the circumstances, it was the moral and ethical and right thing to do. To have made any other decision would have probably have meant ending the relationship or a divorce somewhere down the road. It would not be the moral or ethical or right thing to do to just wait for that to happen.

RE: "if their thinking is correct." Exactly what I've been trying to say. Logic and reason only work if your thinking is correct. That is, if you keep logic and reason within the framework of your belief structure.”

Well, yes! You can not make logical and reasonable decisions using flawed thinking and false assumptions. Every part of the argument must be passed through the filter to be sure they are all valid. Once they have been validated, then and only then can a logical and reasonable decision be reached.

RE: “Just ask all the moms who are trying so hard to do what is right by not caving to the pressure to circumsize their sons. Ask them if their peers, their husbands, their inlaws, their doctors, show them admiration and respect for sticking with what they see is right.”

You do not get that admiration and respect with every decision you make. You get it by the decisions you make for your every day life. It is the sum of the whole.

RE: “Personally, I don't care if anyone ever shows respect for my decision.”

And you shouldn’t. By always doing what is logical and reasonable and therefore right, you will have it. It is not something you have to strive for. It comes automatically. That is the wonderful part of it.


By teaching your children to make their decisions based on reason and logic and to follow the results, they will make the right decisions in the vast majority of cases. Those decisions will not always be the easy or popular course but your child will have the payoff of knowing that they were the right decisions and that breeds self confidence. That self confidence enables them to easily ward off the bullies that might tease them about being intact (or circumcised in some parts of the country or Canada or Europe) and come out on top. Those right actions and self confidence will gain the respect and admiration of their peers. The respect and admiration is not the payoff but instead the verification that what they are doing is logical, reasonable and right. The verification is not on a per case basis but cumulative. The bullies will go after those who can not perform this process and are therefore not making the right decisions and do not have the self confidence.




Frank



PS: At the moment, I am having a conflict with some neighbors who are acting very irrational and unreasonable. They are trying to do some things that they think will have a negative impact on me. We have discussed it at length and they refuse to consider it reasonably. They are trying to take retaliatory action against me. There is a great temptation to take retaliatory actions against them. I have the ammunition to cause them considerable financial damage at no cost or benefit to me other than sending a warning to “leave me alone!” How do I handle this? I don’t know yet but I am furiously passing it through “the filter of reason and logic.”

[Frankly Speaking]

Exactly, Alice. Imagine you had a friend that had a georgeous face and body, is well mannered and well off financially, dresses well and has all of the social graces. Do you decide to fall in love with them? Do you make a rational, conscious and logical decision to fall in love with them and do it? On the other hand, do you make a conscious decision to fall out of love with someone and do it? Obviously, the answer to both questions is "no."

You may fool yourself into thinking you are in love but it will not last. You can also fool yourself into thinking you no longer love them but you can not control that. With love, you just have to go along with the flow.

Something I've wondered about . . . Is love selfish? Ie. I want you. I want all of you. I don't want anybody else to have any of you. I refuse to share you. You should be committed to me and only me. It doesn't matter that you don't love me but I want you to love me. I want your time. I want your body. I want you for the rest of your life. Is love selfish? Just musing.




Frank

[Sustainer]

I think it's possible to love someone unselfishly and just want them to be happy.

[MelissaEvans]

T

I agree with Frank that you cannot help who you love or don't love. It's not a switch that you can turn on or off at will. It's something you either feel for a person, or you don't. You cannot MAKE yourself love someone, and THAT is why there is such a high divorce rate.

I'm sorry, I just glanced through this thread, but I think there's more to love than this. Yes, there's a very important initial spark, but one of my favorite quotes is "love is a verb." It's something you *do.* The person who said this (and of course I can't remember his name) was talking to a man who had "fallen out of love" with his wife. The person told the husband to love her. The husband was confused as he just admitted he didn't love her any more. The person explained he meant to treat her well, respect her, make her feel special, listen to her, make time for her... There have been times I look at DH and think, "what the heck am I doing with him?" And then I remember the beginning and the promises I made when I married him, and I love him. Sometimes it starts with just the actions, but then the feeling comes back too.

My $0.02... you're more than welcome to disagree. =)

[Frankly Speaking]

But you still love him. You may be angry or frustrated or estranged from him but that love is still there in the background. Those other emotions have pushed the love into the background temporarily but it is still there and you have consciously made an effort to remember why you love him, not to love him.

We all have ideals that we think our perfect mate must have. I have found women that had most of those ideals. They include appearance, temprament, emotional and personality traits, character, political outlook, lifestyle, intelligence, honesty and many other traits. Regardless of how many of these qualities some of these women have and regardless of how physically attracted we are and regardless of how I think they would make a great mate, I can not force myself to fall in love with them. In the exact opposite direction, despite what my ex-wife did to me and despite how angry I was with her and despite the fact that I will have absolutely nothing to do with her, there is still some love there no matter how hard I try not to have that love for her. I can not turn love on or off no matter how hard I want to. I can fool my self for a little while but the truth wiggles itself out eventually.

I am very good at controling my emotions. I can talk myself out of being angry, sad or depressed. Love is the only one I have absolutely no control over and I don't think anyone truly controls that. You can facilitate it and once it is there, you can keep destructive thoughts out but you can not consciously turn it on if it is not there or turn it off if it is there.




Frank