Non-vaxers, do you believe in the theory behind vaccines?

[~member~]

I am not vax'd, nor are my children. I am pretty sure that even if they did create "safe" vaccines, I would still say No.


I find that I do "believe" the theory is "correct" and vaccines could be made safe. For instance, traveling to other parts of the world where there is a disease that you never would have acquired in your native area, and you want you and your children to be protected, kwim? That would make sense to me. Especially if it's a thrid world country where I couldn't wash my hands or have the ability to naturally prevent getting the disease.

I was just curious if others even "believe" the theory behind vaccinations?

[DesireeH]

Hmm, well I think if these other parts of the world where diseases are rampant would be supplied with food (so that they werent starving and malnourished), supplied with proper sewage systems and water cleaning facilities then these diseases wouldnt be a problem in the first place. In the long run, isnt that much cheaper than vaccinating tons and tons of people? Not to mention healthier?

[~member~]

Originally Posted by DesireeH

Hmm, well I think if these other parts of the world where diseases are rampant would be supplied with food (so that they werent starving and malnourished), supplied with proper sewage systems and water cleaning facilities then these diseases wouldnt be a problem in the first place. In the long run, isnt that much cheaper than vaccinating tons and tons of people? Not to mention healthier?

I do not believe the theory or idea that "someday the world willbe disease-free". That is just not plausible/possible.

[DesireeH]

Oh I agree.....in the world's current state. Too much corruption and greed.

Religiously I believe it will happen someday but not while under man's rule and that is a complrtely different topic. LOL.

[~member~]

Originally Posted by DesireeH

Oh I agree.....in the world's current state. Too much corruption and greed.

Religiously I believe it will happen someday but not while under man's rule and that is a complrtely different topic. LOL.

I was speaking scientifically. In nature, disease will always exist. They are alive and will always be trying to survive and breed, just like humans and all other living beings.

I am just wondering about my children and grandchildren's future and disease and vaccinations, that's all. I do think I want my future people to be able to have access to safe vaccines, if they want to choose that. But, if I am wrong about the whole theory behind vaccinations, then it doesn't make sense to keep wondering about it.
Just something I have been thinking about lately.

[amyandelle]

It is a nice thought.....

In theory it would be wonderful if vaccines were safe and EFFECTIVE. However if you think about it, any way that you create a fake immune system cannot be as good as having natural immunity. So even if vaccines were made out of natural harmless ingredients would they really be beneficial? I am not so sure.
Amy

[DesireeH]

am just wondering about my children and grandchildren's future and disease and vaccinations, that's all.

I think it will get worse and worse. Natural immunity is better but no one will have it anymore. Not to mention immune systems will be shot from all the toxic ingredients. I'd rather people be injected with toxin free vaccines (if they choose to do so) but sadly, I dont think that will ever be an option cause these pharm companies are not out for humans best interest and it's cheaper to use the garbage they are currently using.

[amyandelle]

Originally Posted by DesireeH

I think it will get worse and worse. Natural immunity is better but no one will have it anymore. Not to mention immune systems will be shot from all the toxic ingredients. I'd rather people be injected with toxin free vaccines (if they choose to do so) but sadly, I dont think that will ever be an option cause these pharm companies are not out for humans best interest and it's cheaper to use the garbage they are currently using.

Yep

[Luckyinlife]

Oh, I think the theory is WONDERFUL. If the ingredients were safe, I'd be in line to get em, too bad we seem soooooo far from that though....

[Attached Mama]

we don't vax at all and i believe vax's damage the natural development of the immune system. that being said, i think that in some situations they are a good thing - like maybe in an epidemic. but i dont' think they should ever be forced! i think they have been effective in getting rid of certain diseases like polio. I guess they have a time and a place - in extreme circumstances and for those who choose to take them because they feel the risk is less than the risk of the disease outbreak or who don't have access to good nutrition.

but the pp who said why not give good food water nutrition has a point. can you imagine if all the $ that goes into vaccines went into nutrition instead?! Wow! Along with that if people didin't eat animals we could grow enough grain to feed the entire world. Some interesting things to think about...

[Gitti]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

In nature, disease will always exist. They are alive and will always be trying to survive and breed, just like humans and all other living beings.

What is disease?

I am just wondering about my children and grand children's future and disease and vaccinations, that's all. I do think I want my future people to be able to have access to safe vaccines, if they want to choose that. But, if I am wrong about the whole theory behind vaccinations, then it doesn't make sense to keep wondering about it.
Just something I have been thinking about lately.

I believe that humans are fooled into thinking that the theory of vaccines work... but it will not and can not work.
It is not possible because anything we inject can only cause an interference in the natural creation. We humans can not improve upon what nature has refined for a millennium. We would have to be god/nature to do that.

Even a "good" vaccine, one free of poisons, etc. will not improve on health. It is impossible. How can we ever believe that injecting that which we don't want, is an insurance that we don't get it?

And creating antibodies to something that does not exist in nature will protect us from something that does exist in nature?

Especially in an epidemic I would not use vaccines. Especially then. That is exactly the time you NEED your unaltered immune system to keep you healthy. And who says it's an epidemic? And what constitutes an epidemic? What number?

Are we having a bird flu epidemic right now? Are we close to one?

No, I would never, under any circumstances, use vaccines.

And I will teach my grandchildren, so that they can instruct and teach their children and grandchildren that under no circumstances should they ever rely on man made "(health) preventions". NOT EVER. They can call it what they want, "safe", "improved", "fortified"... We do not want it.

Someone once wrote: Those who want to 'improve' your natural health are impostors.

[vanilla]

I think the theory has some truth in it, but it's all pumped up- vaxes work SOME of the time because they somehow trigger SOME immune response. So if I were going to Africa, or something, and if there were vaxes with no objectionable ingredients, I'd think about it, because it might give us a better chance of not getting whatever. They never work as well as natural immunity- it's just men trying to replicate what God already did perfectly

[Planta]

My opinion is that vaxes are a poor practical application of a possibly correct, but definetely incomplete, theory. Just think of how much wasn't known when they first appeared...
I am convinced that several generations from now people will ridicule them and even think it incredible that humans used to do this to their babies. It's not the first medical practice that goes through this...

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

I was speaking scientifically. In nature, disease will always exist. They are alive and will always be trying to survive and breed, just like humans and all other living beings.

Yes, but there is lots behind this. For example, one possibility is that diseases flourish only in overpopulation conditions with the "purpose" to keep a certain species under control. We are only beginning to be grateful for this in agriculture, where we are glad that "pests" have their own diseases.
Humans escaped the natural control and their number went well above the natural one (I have some wild ideas to explain this...; still thinking too). Of course we can't just kill people to go back to the "proper" number, but we can try hard to mimic the conditions that are closest to our original way of life (''lost paradise''?!) - at least in terms of nutrition and hygiene. IMO this is the way to go to attain the best possible health right now, because our scientific knowledge is waaaay incomplete to attempt putting it into practice.

[rootzdawta]

Originally Posted by vanilla

I think the theory has some truth in it, but it's all pumped up- vaxes work SOME of the time because they somehow trigger SOME immune response. So if I were going to Africa, or something, and if there were vaxes with no objectionable ingredients, I'd think about it, because it might give us a better chance of not getting whatever. They never work as well as natural immunity- it's just men trying to replicate what God already did perfectly

I don't mean to jump all over you (or hijack the thread) but I get a bit irritated with the suggestion that Africa is the harborer of all these crazy and evil diseases. I mean, I'm not naive, I know disease exists there and I've worried at times about going home and encountering polio but gosh . . . I hear this all the time and it just bothers me. I remember when dh was about to give blood, one of ths survey questions was have you travelled to or been in contact with anyone who's travelled to Africa. And of course he had been . . . me. Sorry . . .just my little rant.

Oh and yes, theoretically vaccines would seem to work but nothing works better than the intact, healthy, properly functioning immune system. I for one, think the Creator knew what it was doing and I don't need to screw it up trying to improve it! It's the same reason I wear my hair naturally!

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by rootzdawta

nothing works better than the intact, healthy, properly functioning immune system. I for one, think the Creator knew what it was doing and I don't need to screw it up trying to improve it!

[Planta]

Originally Posted by rootzdawta

I get a bit irritated with the suggestion that Africa is the harborer of all these crazy and evil diseases. I mean, I'm not naive, I know disease exists there and I've worried at times about going home and encountering polio but gosh . . . I hear this all the time and it just bothers me. I remember when dh was about to give blood, one of ths survey questions was have you travelled to or been in contact with anyone who's travelled to Africa. And of course he had been . . . me. Sorry . . .just my little rant.

I think there is a serious problem about the perception of Africa - I will try to start a thread some day. I remember myself years ago, when I was kind of "maistream" - I was scared to death of Africa and I even swore to myself to never go there because of all the dreadful diseases. Now I live in a tropical place (not Africa, but also dreaded by the old me) and I have a radically different perception. Maybe it's worth discussing in a separate thread - all the diseases, the propaganda, the poverty, etc...

[mamakay]

I think the theory that vaccines create immunity a lot of the time is correct. But that varies from disease to disease.
The theory that the world is so much better off now because of vaccines is incorrect. (save smallpox). I'd say polio maybe, too, but I really think we probably traded polio for AIDS.

I think eventually vaxes really will be safe and effective. I'm thinking maybe in another 200 years or so. The pride/threat of lawsuit stuff won't be resolved for at least a few more generations, definitely.
And until the PTB confront the issues of the past and present head on, we're not going to see progress.

[KatSG]

I don't believe vaxxes create herd immunity or even individual immunity often enough to say they really work the way they were originally intended. Add all the side-effects to that and I think they're generally a failure. We end up having to create new vaxxes or boosters to keep this fake immunity up, futher eroding our natural herd immunity and creating individual health risks.

I haven't read this book (keep meaning to, maybe I'll order it) and I don't know if it's really the best book on the subject, but I heard the author on Tech Nation a few years ago and was fascinated. The book is called "The Speckled Monster : A Historical Tale of Battling the Smallpox Epidemic and it's by Jennifer Carrell. It's a sort of novel-esque story (though it's true, just written like a novel) of a wealthy English woman and a US doctor in the 1700s who found out, she from her travels with her ambassoder husband and he from African slaves, about innoculations for small pox. Both of these people survived smallpox themselves, got their kids innoculated and wanted to share this knowledge to protect people. The great thing about innoculation, as I understand it (and perhaps someone who knows more about this can elaborate) is that it is true immunity, you just have to know what you're doing or you'll screw it up. I remember the author said that when the woman tried to tell the Royal doctors how to do this they thought "if a little is good, then a lot is better" and gave too much of the innoculation to their prisoner/test subjects and they got sick (they used actual body fluid from the blister of someone who had smallpox and put it under the skin of the person to be innoculated). No one really understood the science so there was no way to promote it when you didn't see for yourself how it worked in cultures who practiced this regularly with great success.

Anyway, sometimes, for some diseases, I wish we still did something like this. It would still carry risk, but it seems to me that you would know right away if something went wrong and how to treat it, in theory at least. Now, it seems, no one really wants to admit that we don't know what we're doing with vaccines so we have no way of dealing with reactions and side-effects, short and long-term.

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

I find that I do "believe" the theory is "correct"

On what basis do you believe the 'theory' of vaccination is correct?

and vaccines could be made safe.

What medical evidence can you present to support this opinion.

For instance, traveling to other parts of the world where there is a disease that you never would have acquired in your native area, and you want you and your children to be protected, kwim?

How does this statement equate to the first two above? My oldest child has travelled around many cess pits of the world in the last 7 years, unvaccinated, and everything he caught, was something that there is no vaccine for. Like Delhi belhi.

That would make sense to me. Especially if it's a thrid world country where I couldn't wash my hands or have the ability to naturally prevent getting the disease.

Um, do you believe that in third world countries there is no ability to keep yourself clean? How do you think the occupants of third world countries try to keep themselves clean? How do you think that aid workers have managed for decades? Not all of them have vaccines.

How much have you read about people's lives in these countries?

I was just curious if others even "believe" the theory behind vaccinations?

Well, first tell me what the theory is, and then show me the medical science that shows how and THAT vaccines actually work. I don't want to see antibody 'correlates'. After all, medical literature is full of people who had plenty of antibodies before they got the disease and went on to get it anyway.

Explain to me how vaccines work please, and what all the components do, and how they are processed in the body? And what all the variations of that might theoretically be in diverse groups?

Also, please explain to me why in vaccine trials http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ so many groups of people are excluded from both efficacy and safety trials?

Then when you have explained that to me, please tell me how then, it would be possible to make them safe?

[lizzie]

Originally Posted by Gitti

How can we ever believe that injecting that which we don't want, is an insurance that we don't get it?

I guess because so many people like the idea of waving a wand, sprinkling some dust, crossing yourself, saying omni omni, doing a little dance and sacrificing your natural health to the disease gods so they'll leave you alone?

Not to trying to slam anyone's belief system, just saying that when you put it like that, it sounds an awful lot like superstitious silliness! "Okay, I want "x" to happen... but if I want it right out loud, I might jinx myself, so I'll say "xx" and inject "xxx" and then the big bad hairy "XXXX" will be fooled into thinking he already has me, and leave me alone!" And what's sad is how many of my friends and family really do seem to think like that, now that I've typed it all out...

lizzie