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Homebirthing and circumcision - Page 3

post #41 of 151
First I find this is surprising too.
I want a home birth because I don't want my son
anywere near those butchers!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rikiamber
I might calm down about it someday but for now its all so new and wonderful to me I want to share it with everyone...I can totally understand why christians stand on the corner and preach I feel like doing the same about AP.
You know, maybe we should start setting up booths
at fairs like the different christain groups do.

Teach about slingin', BF, AP, circ, ect.
That would be incredible.
post #42 of 151
I wanted to add another midwife experience I had regarding circ. I was seeing some CNMs for the first few months of one of my pregnancies (as I was struggling to find a homebirth midwife, CNMs don't do homebirths here) and she asked me if I was planning on circing if it was a boy. When I said no she flipped. She raised her voice at me and told me my son would grow up to resent me if I didn't circ him and told me that she knows so many urologists who would tell me how many problems uncirced boys have blah blah blah. Seriously, she was really angry that I didn't want to circ. I thought it was bizarre and left that appointment in tears (as I did every visit with those CNMs- IHC midwife group up by LDS hospital if anyone wants to know- they were really mean every visit).

My homebirth midwifes both did ask at some point too and I was like heck no! I am sure they were curious me being Jewish, I bet they assumed I would.
post #43 of 151
I find it very sad that many homebirthing parents choose to do that to their child. I am going to go to midwifery school in 5+ years and I've already decided I will not accept clients who are going to circumcise. I will try to talk to them and explain everything about it, but I will not accept them as my client if they will do that. I believe in protecting all babies from genital mutilation, not just girls.
post #44 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I find it very sad that many homebirthing parents choose to do that to their child. I am going to go to midwifery school in 5+ years and I've already decided I will not accept clients who are going to circumcise. I will try to talk to them and explain everything about it, but I will not accept them as my client if they will do that. I believe in protecting all babies from genital mutilation, not just girls.
My midwife asked, and after we said "hell no" told us that she sometimes declines clients based on this... she does her utmost to guarantee a safe, gentle, peaceful birth, and if the parents circumcise afterward she almost feels like she is lying to the baby.
post #45 of 151
The topic came up at the consultation I had with my midwife. We were discussing "routine" tests and procedures and she said that the only procedure she had strong feelings about was circumcision. I told her that there was no way I was chopping up my baby and she was quite relieved.

We found out we are having a girl so the topic didn't come up again, but I think she usually brings it up at a later appointment.
post #46 of 151
My midwife actually broached the subject by saying, "You aren't going to circumcise, are you?" Our answer was a resounding "No." She said it surprised her that she had people in the middle of no where that didn't even want her to report the birth and yet they want to see docs to get their boys circed. Blech!
post #47 of 151
We interviewed three midwives, and only one asked at the initial appointment. However when we told her that if the child was a boy then yes we would need to find a local Mohel (we are Jewish) she was wonderful and had the card of the only one in the area she would recommend.

The midwife we went with didn't really discuss it, since our first full prenatal I had already had an ultrasound and knew it was a girl.

Our doula did bring it up, as she too is Jewish and wanted to know if we needed support or information on local resources.

Ladies while I respect the varied opinions this topic always brings up, I would hate to see a woman with strong religious beliefs and strongly ingrained cultural practices denied the wonderful opportunity for a midwife attended birth because of them.

I'm not talking about the folks that have their boys circed "just because", I agree that is a wonderful opportunity for education. Just thinking out loud here but I just have to wonder how many parents make an informed decision to have their sons circed, and while it is a more invasive procedure, is it really that different from vaxing, or the myriad of other decision we make for our newborns. (they have no say in the decision, and have to live with the potential consequences the rest of their lives).
post #48 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I find it very sad that many homebirthing parents choose to do that to their child. I am going to go to midwifery school in 5+ years and I've already decided I will not accept clients who are going to circumcise. I will try to talk to them and explain everything about it, but I will not accept them as my client if they will do that. I believe in protecting all babies from genital mutilation, not just girls.
Kathryn, I plan to do the same thing once I am a midwife. I probably will also not take mothers who don't plan to breastfeed without a legitimate reason. Of course, if someone initially plans to circ I will do my best to educate them and hope they see the truth, same with BF. But if they want to do it anyway, I cannot be a part of that, even for those whose religions practice circ.
post #49 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I find it very sad that many homebirthing parents choose to do that to their child. I am going to go to midwifery school in 5+ years and I've already decided I will not accept clients who are going to circumcise. I will try to talk to them and explain everything about it, but I will not accept them as my client if they will do that. I believe in protecting all babies from genital mutilation, not just girls.
I used to think the same way, but I would miss out on the opportunity to provide a gentle homebirth with so many wonderful Jewish and Muslim ladies, for whom modesty and privacy is just as, if not more, important a role in their spiritual beliefs as circumcision.
post #50 of 151
So those of you who will not take Jewish or Muslim clients then, you will also not take clients who do other things for religious reasons like refuse a blood transfusion or life-saving-necessary medications or Rhogam or vaccines or oxygen? You will inform them of the ridiculousness of their position? Provide them with videos and handouts about how medications and blood products can save lives and without them their lives or their child's life very well could be lost?

I can't understand why any midwife would think it was any of her business to convince or refuse someone for something they do for religious reasons unless she didn't feel she could actually handle a situation in which those things were necessary. Unless she thought it was somehow her decision instead of the mother-family's decision.

This is what I meant about the child's soul and the child's body are the responsibility of the parents, not the midwife. The mother's soul and body are the responsibility of the mother, not the midwife. The midwife is an assistant, an attendant, not a parent to the mother OR to the baby.

Christian women used to use Jewish midwives because in case of a situation where only the mother or the baby would be saved, Jewish midwives would save the mother. The Catholic church I believe directed Christian midwives to save the baby.

I'm shocked to hear that so many midwives or midwives to be still consider practicing basically the same way, as if the baby were more important than the mother.

mv
post #51 of 151
My midwife asked, and then said "Oh, good," when I said we wouldn't. Interestingly, it is a birth center practice and I was planning a BC birth, but I guess they mark it on the forms.
post #52 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaverdi
So those of you who will not take Jewish or Muslim clients then, you will also not take clients who do other things for religious reasons like refuse a blood transfusion or life-saving-necessary medications or Rhogam or vaccines or oxygen? You will inform them of the ridiculousness of their position? Provide them with videos and handouts about how medications and blood products can save lives and without them their lives or their child's life very well could be lost?

I can't understand why any midwife would think it was any of her business to convince or refuse someone for something they do for religious reasons unless she didn't feel she could actually handle a situation in which those things were necessary. Unless she thought it was somehow her decision instead of the mother-family's decision.

This is what I meant about the child's soul and the child's body are the responsibility of the parents, not the midwife. The mother's soul and body are the responsibility of the mother, not the midwife. The midwife is an assistant, an attendant, not a parent to the mother OR to the baby.

Christian women used to use Jewish midwives because in case of a situation where only the mother or the baby would be saved, Jewish midwives would save the mother. The Catholic church I believe directed Christian midwives to save the baby.

I'm shocked to hear that so many midwives or midwives to be still consider practicing basically the same way, as if the baby were more important than the mother.

mv
I don't think it has anything to do with trying to mother the woman. If I do choose to have a policy that I won't take clients who plan to circ, I am not FORCING her to change her mind. I would never berate her, I would ask if she wanted information about circumcision (and if it is a religious reason, include anti-circ info for that religion) and if she says no, I will just tell her that we have a policy that we do not accept clients who plan to circ. It's not like I'd be holding the baby hostage until she changes her mind.

And FWIW, I'm not a midwife yet and am not totally sure if I'll be instituting that policy, but I definitely think it is about protecting my own right to choose clients I feel comfortable with, not about trying to control the woman. Until MGM is made illegal in this country, she'll be able to find someone to perform the circ if she wants, and she'll be able to find another care provider for her birth.

As far as the other medical issues, that's where circ is different. It is not medically indicated, it is an elective surgery -- even when it's done for a religious reason. If a patient was declining a life-saving medical procedure, yes, I would give them information about it, though I wouldn't call them "ridiculous." If they choose to decline the procedure, then that depends on the situation on how to proceed from there.
post #53 of 151
I believe that we all have to act in accord with our own consciousness.

Circumcision is offensive to my sensibilities. That is my personal stand on it and consequently, I am personally obligated to not seek care from anyone who profits from circ. That is my own conscious.

Any parent who wants to circ their son based on a religious conviction needs to seek the care that is in line with their beliefs.

I believe it is completely valid for a care provider to refuse to offer treatment that is not in line with their convictions - either personal or medical. There are plenty of pediatricians who refuse to care for children who are not vaccinated - just another example.
post #54 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer
I believe that we all have to act in accord with our own consciousness.
That line really says it perfectly. : )
post #55 of 151
I think it's highly unethical for a care provider to refuse care based on religious/spiritual/social/cultural/lifestyle beliefs. It's not in my job description to judge, as much as it is within my job to educate and inform. I can tell a Jewish mama that there are alternatives to a Bris Milah, which honour and respect the covenent and don't cut, but the decision is hers. I have known Jewish couples whose families have actually sat Shivah when they decided not to circumcise. That's a lot of pressure.

I think a consumer is well within her rights to seek a care provider who shares her own beliefs. However, many Pagan, Wiccan, Fundamental Christian, Muslim and Jewish ladies will be hard pressed to find one in certain areas.
I've attended births where the minister was invited and a constant prayer circle was going on in the other room. I've attended the birth of an Orthodox Rabbi and his wife; he stayed outside the door praying while she laboured in the room with only women attending (Ack! Don't put the placenta in my kitchen sink! Or on my counter!). I've attended the births of Muslima ladies and the births of Christian rattlesnake handlers. I've joined hands and sang "Jesus Loves Me" and "Washed in the Blood of The Lamb". Births in which mama was helped along with pendulums and crystals, births that took place inside a closed Wiccan circle, Christian Scientist births with the Practitioner on speaker phone. Births where the mother was being "beaten" with plaintan leaves and births where herbs were tied around her thighs with ribbons.
I'm a midwife because I believe women of all backgrounds and beliefs deserve a birth that honours their spirituality and culture, not mine.
post #56 of 151
I would be fine with all the things you listed. I just draw the line at genital mutilation. I don't consider it a lifestyle choice, I consider it a human right's violation.
post #57 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
I find it very sad that many homebirthing parents choose to do that to their child. I am going to go to midwifery school in 5+ years and I've already decided I will not accept clients who are going to circumcise. I will try to talk to them and explain everything about it, but I will not accept them as my client if they will do that. I believe in protecting all babies from genital mutilation, not just girls.
And what do you do when you find out they've lied to you?
post #58 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin926
I don't consider it a lifestyle choice, I consider it a human right's violation.
Well, I don't consider religious circumcision a lifestyle choice either. I don't think Jews and Muslims consider it a lifestyle choice, come right to it. They don't do it because "it's cleaner, it'll look like Daddy's, everyone else is doing it, it has to be done" They do it because it's a very important part of their religious beliefs.
My son likes to say, "Hate the game, not the player." While I abhor circumcision, I love and honour my clients.
post #59 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenkids
I used to think the same way, but I would miss out on the opportunity to provide a gentle homebirth with so many wonderful Jewish and Muslim ladies, for whom modesty and privacy is just as, if not more, important a role in their spiritual beliefs as circumcision.
I have no problem referring them to another midwife.
post #60 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki
And what do you do when you find out they've lied to you?
Don't know. There's not much I can do, kwim? I will still stand by my convictions though.
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