Homebirthing and circumcision - Page 5

[sevenkids]

Originally Posted by A&A

Maybe not. But, if I were a midwife/doula, she wouldn't DESERVE my help if she's chosen to do that to her son.

Deserve? that's an unfortunate choice of word......It's an honour and a privilidge to attend a birth. It has nothing to do with whether or not she deserves the birth she wants, but whether she chooses to honour you with the privilidge.

[Guest*]

Originally Posted by sevenkids

Right on.

I have had more than a few couples who planned on circing right up until the last minute, only to tell me at the 4 day or 2 week visit that they changed their minds. Imagine if I had refered them to someone who actually did support and encourage circ'ing or had no strong opinions on the subject? Quite a different outcome, I'd guess.

I'm one of those clients. I was simply not educated about circumcision until much later in pregnancy. I was in the "I don't own a penis, my DH can decide" mentality. I was given information, but just didn't understand the significance until much later in my pregnancy when the idea of having a real, breathing, feeling baby who needed my care became more real to me.

My midwives, who are against circ, gently discussed the topic with me and DH from time to time, then loaned us a video. That sealed the deal. If I had gone to a midwife who didn't care one way or another or didn't bother to educate us in a loving manner, I doubt I would have learned what I know now.

I had a girl anway, but any future sons will be left intact.

Another thing...if my midwives had asked at the beginning of my pregnancy if I decided to circ, even if they gave me a couple pamphlets to read first, then dropped me because of my decision, I may have felt insulted or attacked and probably have been more inclined to circ just to spite them for making me feel badly. But my midwives didn't do that. They never attacked my original decision or made me feel it was wrong. They discussed the issue with me calmly and with a lot of understanding. That's what me and DH needed.

Hope that makes sense...I'm rambling and my dd is trying to get me off the comp!

ETA: So my point was, I am thankful that my midwives educated me instead of turning me loose. Who knows if/when I would have learned what I know now about circ if they hadn't bothered with it? Maybe I would have learned too late.

[cakefight]

many of the responses and thoughts here have me questioning my choice to hire a midwife. not because i support circumcision or bottle feeding or whatever but because i would rather be treated like a uterus than a potential demon.

[dove]

Originally Posted by Heather_in_LasVega

This is why I have never participated in a circ discussion before! While I would do a ritual circumsicion if I gave birth to a boy, I am hadly running around promoting that *everyone* should circ! And I appreciated that a midwife realized that she was not going to change my mind, respected my informed decision, and provided the name of a practicioner she had personally witnessed and felt postively about.

I would not circ "just because" and to imply that I am kidding myself is disrespectful and insulting. This is something DH and I discussed at length and did much soul searching over.

Unless you have grown up an observant Jew and actively practice Judiasm I really don't think you are qualified to pass judgement on my decision making process.

This is a delicate subject for me and I know for other Jewish woman. For most of us we are a minority in our community, even more so in the AP community. It is very disheartening to be called a "child abuser", a "mutilator" etc. by those you consider to be a part of your "community", even if it is online.

I hate to break it to you, but if I thought I was going to loose my only shot at a midwife attended birth because of it, I would lie! Not proud of it, but there you go. And if there wasn't a good Mohel in Vegas I would have gladly made the trip to the grandparents in LA for the Bris.

I hate to break it to you, too - but the decision to mutilate your baby based on religious beliefs is no better than doing it "just because" - you baby doesn't know the difference, after all. You can't explain that to a newborn as he has this horrific procedure performed on him. I'm sure it is a delicate subject - after all, I would know - my son is Jewish. My dh would lay his Jewish body down over his son's to prevent this from atrocity from happening to him. Since you infer that I have no idea about Judaism and Jewish law, I thought I would let you in on our personal decision.

eta: actually what got me about your post was that you were making the distinction between doing it "just because" and because of religious reasons, as if your decision was somehow better because it has some valid "reasoning" behind it.

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org

[dove]

Originally Posted by cakefight

many of the responses and thoughts here have me questioning my choice to hire a midwife. not because i support circumcision or bottle feeding or whatever but because i would rather be treated like a uterus than a potential demon.

??? well, that would be your choice...???

[cakefight]

Originally Posted by dove

??? well, that would be your choice...???

my choice would be to deny myself the privilege of being judged or demeaned by my hired help - regardless of issue. i find it unfortunate that some don't see the harm in alienation and stepping out of bounds and role.

[veganf]

Originally Posted by cakefight

i find it unfortunate that some don't see the harm in alienation and stepping out of bounds and role.

Then whose role is it to inform people about circumcision, if not one's health care provider?

- Krista

[cakefight]

Originally Posted by veganf

Then whose role is it to inform people about circumcision, if not one's health care provider?

- Krista

i'm not put out by INFORMATION. i expect that. i want that. at least half the point is the information i would get from such a person. judgement, refusal to treat as a person rather than a cause, that's my problem.

[Kathryn]

Then you would find a midwife that is ok with you circumcising your child. There are doctors that would refuse as well, it's not just a midwife thing.

[cakefight]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

Then you would find a midwife that is ok with you circumcising your child. There are doctors that would refuse as well, it's not just a midwife thing.

for me circumcision isn't the issue. i think i wrote that already.

[Kathryn]

Then you would need to interview midwives until you found one that was good for you. OB's aren't going to treat you like much more than a uterus.

[njeb]

I've read this thread with interest because I've had two home births, both boys, and chose to leave them intact. They are now grown men, and I have no regrets whatsoever about letting them keep their foreskins. I am proud that I left them intact at a time when 90% of boys were getting cut.

After reading this thread through, however, I am torn about what I would do if I were a homebirth midwife. All midwives have to decide which clients to take and which to refuse--where do you draw the line? I think that each midwife has to decide that for herself. I know that I would never take a client that refused to breastfeed; it would be a kindness for me to refuse her because I would be too judgmental of her to think clearly in her situation. For some midwives, the same may be true about circumcision.

[sevenkids]

When I was an aspiring midwife, I always thought I wouldn't accept clients who would circ or refused to breastfeed. The more I practice, the more I come to the realization that the entire pregnancy and birth and parenting experience is NOT about ME and my values.
To "midwife" means to be with woman. It means you have chosen or have been called to a life of service to women. It is not an arena to use to further your own agenda, and you can't use women or make examples out of them to do so. You have to learn to put a LOT of your own prejudices away, because you will come across a wide variety of people from all walks of life. Not every woman who chooses homebirth or a midwife is going to be like you, or share your beliefs.
My job is to provide information and to educate so she can make her own decisions, not to be judge, jury and executioner. Not to coerce or control. When you provide holistic care, you must respect her physical, emotional, spiritual, and social needs, even if they're not your own.

[Kathryn]

I agree, but I would not be able to provide good care for someone that I knew was going to do that. I would be a crappy midwife even if I wanted to be good.

[Mrs_Hos]

Originally Posted by sevenkids

To "midwife" means to be with woman. It means you have chosen or have been called to a life of service to women. It is not an arena to use to further your own agenda, and you can't use women or make examples out of them to do so. You have to learn to put a LOT of your own prejudices away, because you will come across a wide variety of people from all walks of life. Not every woman who chooses homebirth or a midwife is going to be like you, or share your beliefs.

Oh mama! I wish I was as strong as you! I am not a mw or doula...but if I were I don't think I would be a very good one...if a new baby was born and instead of putting the baby to the breast, the mom decides to give a bottle, I think I would cry. Just knowing what both mom and baby are missing would make me so sad. I have a dd but I think the circ issue would be similar...but at least I wouldn't have to watch it (or DO it!!).
I love the mw/hb ideals of a woman helping another woman...and in my mind I would be 'helping' by informing about the necessity of nursing a baby. If they chose not to, I wouldn't argue of course...but I may cry.
So...best for me to not be a doula or mw!

[Arwyn]

If you wouldn't be a good attendant for a woman, if you wouldn't be able to leave your baggage outside and attend on her fully, then you shouldn't be her midwife. I think there are people I couldn't support in birth and I would turn away - and I would consider it a failing in myself.

And again, I'd like to express how insulted I'm feeling that those of us who wouldn't automatically turn away a woman who planned to circ are being portrayed as in favor of circumcision. "Then you would find a midwife that is ok with you circumcising your child." OR she could find a midwife who would meet her where she was, as a flawed human being walking her own path, and would treat her with the dignity and respect she deserved, just for being. A midwife who is fully against circumcision, who is not "ok" with genital mutilation, but who also knows that it's not the midwife's choice.

Again, I don't have a problem with anyone else choosing (hypothetically, I might add) to serve/not serve a client for whatever reason, I just don't want to be portrayed (hypothetically, as I'm an off again/on again doula, and student midwife, and don't currently have any clients to "screen") as "in favor of" genital mutilation just because I choose to work against it in a different way than some other women would.

[mama_at_home]

I can understand what you are saying, Arwyn. I know for a fact that my midwife does not support RIC and she was absolutely thrilled when we chose not to circ. But she does not choose clients based on that. In fact she never even asked if we planned to circ until after the birth. But maybe that was because she saw us check out an anti-circ book from her lending library. I am 100% against RIC but if I were a midwife I don't think I would choose my clients based on it. I would probably talk with them, give them a video, etc. and just pray that if they planned on circing that they would change their minds. I think many couples start out planning to circ but they eventually change their minds if they are surrounded by the right influence.

[mamaverdi]

I think sevenkids addresses the topic exactly how I feel about it. It's not about the midwife. I wonder if that is a big reason more people choose doctors because for the most part doctors don't see into other parts of your life. You are free to be who you are as long as it doesn't become an issue with the immediate birth or pregnancy. Sometimes, not as personal is a good thing.

And I think that is very sad.

I'm shocked to hear people who are potentially caring for the mamababy saying "better the baby be born by c-section." Who is that better for exactly? Birth outcomes do affect people their whole lives. Iatrogenic cerebral palsy, serious, fatal, and brain damaging seizure disorders, exposure to super bugs or even just group B strep that hangs around the hospital can kill---the baby or the mother. And what about the affects of major abdominal surgery on the rest of the mother's life? There is evidence that babies born by c-section have a much higher risk of having AD/HD. Is that better? To have a life long debilitating diseases, disorders, death?

And the chances of the baby being accidently circ'ed in the hospital are much much higher. I know many homebirthing moms who changed their minds literally when they saw their baby in the flesh.

And it worries me even more than ever that religious discrimination is such a big part of so many US midwives' work. Wow, I mean, do you advertise: No Jews. No Muslims.? Do you ask them when they call to set up an interview: Are you a religious Jew/Muslim because they aren't gonna be swayed, and I can't work with religious Jews/Muslims?

At this point, I'm not very far into my training, but the only type of person (be it my midwife or my client) that I could not work with is a bigot.

mv

[homebirthing]

I am a doula who does not work with families who circ. It is not as easy as it sounds. It makes you feel sad and angry and frustrated and sometimes very overwhelmed. But I can sleep at night, knowing that MY morals are upheld. While I have only had two families not hire me because of circumcision, the rest either changed their mind when given good information, or were not planning on doing it anyway. As an aspiring midwife, I can't imagine that it will change much. I will leave it in God's hands.

[mama_at_home]

Sarah, I just wanted to say I love all the pictures in your siggy.