or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › not so dear husband and circ-update
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

not so dear husband and circ-update

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
My dh and I do not have a son yet. We'd like to one day. We have just started the ttc talk. With my last pregnancy we dodged the circ debate after our 18 week u/s revealed our baby was a girl. Whew!
Now the ttc talk has begun. We've had 3 arguments so far about circumcision, and I am not even pg yet. I am against circ, he is very much for it. I cannot convince him. He says I don't know what it's like to have a penis, I am not a man, ect. Tonight we had the worst argument yet about it. He went so far to say that he'd go behind my back after delivery to ask them to circ a son. He said that I might as well divorce him because he will not back down. We're at a point now where we are just stuck.
I don't know what to do. He's a good provider, a good husband, and a good father to our dd. He just really feels strongly about circ, and he's so misinformed but he doesn't care. I don't know what to do. Anyone out there face a similar situation?



Update: He was willing last night to read the information I have ready for him. Small victory here.
post #2 of 47
What are his reasons?

I would personally make an good effort to prevent pregnancy until you can work this issue out, better to figure it out now then later when a baby's on the way, the pressure is on, and things are likely to be more stressful.

If you share more with us about what reasons he's throwing out, we can help you address them.

I would not TTC with someone who is saying, up front, they would go behind my back and do something I believe whole-heartedly is abusive. I would not want to TTC with someone I couldn't trust, or who I couldn't trust to put the safety and wellbeing of our child above all else, which I consider the most sacred duty of parenting.

Good luck, keep us updated...

Jen
post #3 of 47
I honestly would not have another child unless I was certain that DH shared my views.
post #4 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharlla
I honestly would not have another child unless I was certain that DH shared my views.
Ditto.

What a tough place to be in. I'm so sorry.
post #5 of 47
I went through very similar talks with my DH and it made me get as much information together to present him with as possible.

While it is true that I do not have a penis and don't know what it's like to be a man, he does not have an intact penis and does not know what that is like so as far as I'm concerned we have the same authority there.

I read like six different books and everything in these forums and had a comeback for every possible argument (which surprisingly were few, he hadn't really thought about it and had no reasons other than the typical "they say there's more infections" and stuff, so it was pretty easy to rebut him) I encouraged him to read the books I had, but he doesn't really do that.

The real clincher came when after months of me bringing it up whenever the timing was right (like NOT when we were already fighting about something else and definitely NOT when any of his buddies were over) I read a story about the babies who had gotten herpes from the jewish circumciser in New York that still practised the mouth-to-penis sucking the blood from the wound thing that they used to do.
story

I printed off the news story and my dh was so disgusted by that that it got the gears turning and he started to think more about what circumcision really is and where it came from and by the time my son was born he was "converted" and now even realizes that something was taken from him, and wishes he himself hadn't been circ'd. He doesn't really hold it against his mother though, cause he knows times were different, but I am just glad that I was able to get him to see the light.

It wasn't easy and I had to really do a lot of work and prepare myself. The good part is that I learned so much more than I ever could imagine about circumcision and I am thankful for that knowledge, even if it makes me sad for all the boys out there (my nephew for example) that are still being circ'd.

The good news is, you have time. Start accumulating facts and information to present in response to whatever reasons he comes up with. And make sure he knows that "going behind your back and doing ANYTHING" is completely unacceptable under any circumstances. That is the worst thing your partner could ever say to you, I am so sorry you had to hear that.

I must admit I was afraid to tell my family at first that I would not be circumcising my son, because I didn't know how they would react, and one of my biggest fears was that someone would try to circumcise him behind my back, but by the time I was done with my research I was armed to the teeth and more than willing to loudly tell anyone within earshot exactly why I would not be circing my son and no one questioned me.

good luck mama, get ready to fight for your boy-to-be!

-Prensa
post #6 of 47
He doesn't know what it's like to have an intact penis either so you're on equal ground there. And I'd make him prove to you why it's medically necessary.

And no way would I advise TTC until this is resolved.
post #7 of 47
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all your replies.
Here is the one link he did present to me.

http://www.circinfo.net/#benefits
post #8 of 47
That is a bunch of lies. I don't have time to rebut each "benefit" right now but we all could do it easily. But, most basically, 80% of the world's men have their foreskins and are happy and fine.
post #9 of 47
the sticky threads at the top of this forum will help you in discrediting the opinions on that link
post #10 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by msumomma
Thanks for all your replies.
Here is the one link he did present to me.

http://www.circinfo.net/#benefits
That's the personal webpage of Brian Morris, who is not a pediatrician or a urologist and has an unnatural interest in circumcision, traveling abroad to watch ritual circumcision ceremonies and such. And, both is website and his arguments are out of touch with every medical organization in the world NONE of which recommend routine infant circumcision.

There's also a complete rebuttal available online...

Rebuttal Part 1

Rebuttal Part 2

I would tell him, "Since I checked out your page, I want you to watch these..."

---

“The Prepuce”

(WMP, Streaming):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...C/prepuce.html

(WMP, Download-use “save link as”):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...TSC_256k_D.wmv

---

http://asp.noterik.com/video/michael/CIRCUMCISION.mov

---

http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.mov

Jen
post #11 of 47
In male babies the foreskin is lightly attached to the penis underneath it, much like the skin on an orange, and comes free over the course of the first few years of life.

This is as far as I got on that site... uh... sorry, but my ds's foreskin is not LIGHTLY attached!!! I certainly do not know HOW strongly it is attached because I have not tried to find out. But it is not lightly. How irritating.

I would agree with the previous posters that you should settle this before actually ttc- let him know for sure how serious you are about it.
post #12 of 47
Read up on those sites shown above.

If your dh believes in and understands evolution...
All mammals, male and female have foreskins. All human males are born with a foreskin. If having a foreskin reduced a person's long-term survivability or in any way reduced fitness and/or reproductive ability, then there wouldn't be foreskins. In fact, the highly developed, refined foreskin shows that the foreskin on the male is very necessary and contributes to fitness and reproductive success. It keeps the glans and urethra clean. Do you think a female would permit painful, dry copulation in a time without artificial lubricants? The foreskin keeps the glans moist and lubricated and the foreskin itself acts as a gliding bearing, greatly reducing the need for female lubrication.

Any logic and statistics that pro-circers throw at you are hogwash. Evolution speaks for itself.

And in the end, it's not your husband's penis. It's your son's penis.
post #13 of 47
You may not have a penis (which you kind of actually do, it's just small), but you have a foreskin. He doesn't. You know what it's like to have a foreskin, he doesn't. So that argument doesn't work.

I would not TTC with him until I was positive that he would not mutilate my child.
post #14 of 47
He gave you a link to a circumfetishist, I'd ask him to find a source that was a bit more medical.

Here's a few refutes for you.

Quote:
(There are no deaths today from medical circumcisions in developed countries.)
Dustin Evans Jr was born in Cleveland, Ohio in October 1998. He was circumcised by a Dr Russell soon after, who took so much shaft skin that the scar healed as a wideband stricture (a tight "collar") around his penis, preventing him from urinating. When he was given sevoflourane, an anaesthetic, in order to "revise" his circumcision, he immediately died of cardiopulmonary arrest.

His father said, "You think, 'What could go wrong with a circumcision?' The next thing I know, he's dead."

Ryleigh McWillis - death from blood loss
(1) Immediate cause of death: a) Multi-organ ischemia, due to or as a consequence of b) exsangination [loss of blood], due to or as a consequence of c) circumcision
(2) Other significant conditions contributing to death: Post-surgical exsanguination

Classification of the event: Accidental
Date signed: 19 January 2004
T.E. Chico Newell, Coroner

Those were in the US and Canada respectively.

Quote:
Studies of middle class British [172] and Scandanavian [259] schoolboys concluded that penile hygiene, as such, is at best poor and at worst non-existent.
And that's why over 90+% of them never end up circumcised right? Not to mention, elementary school kids don't REQUIRE any "special" penile cleaning.

Quote:
"What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)" [301].
Replace man with woman and penile with vaginal. Women are fine washing in the morning, so are men.

Quote:
Smegma is produced by the foreskin’s inner surface and contains neutral lipids, fatty acids, sterol and exfoliated cells. Excretion of smegma increases in adolescence and peaks at age 20–40 years. Whereas initially it is a lubricant having a white or pale yellow color, with time, chemical transformations take place and it becomes mixed with epithelial cells, dirt and micro-organisms; these form aggregates and produce foul odors. The bacteria alone give off an offensive smell and most people consider smegma to be unclean [405].
Women have more smegma than men.

Quote:
Between 1988 and 2000 the rate of circumcision of NEWBORNS BEFORE HOSPITAL DISCHARGE POST-BIRTH has increased 6.8% per year in the USA [242
Absolute BS. http://www.icgi.org/Downloads/normal...ircumcised.htm

And if you read most of his rates they're from the 70s. The NZ one is a joke really. Yeah in the 70s it was 40%. Now it's under 1% (non-religious). Same with the numbers for England and Canada. Here are the numbers from Wikipedia

United States 2002 60.1% [81]
Canada 2003 11.5% [82]
Australia 2004 12.7% [83]
New Zealand 1995 0.35%* [84]
United Kingdom 1972 0.41% [85]

And an article on the declining rates
http://www.cirp.org/news/iowacitypresscitizen07-28-03/

His physical "problems" list.

Phimosis: Completely normal until puberty and a bit after. The foreskin usually "loses its hold" on the penis completely upon the onset of masturbation.

Paraphimosis: Ridiculously rare but treatable without surgery

Zipper Injury: My cut partner has caught his glans in his zipper several times, should we cut it off?

Elderly men: I don't know about you but I'd like to have and enjoy my parts and if they have to be cut off when I'm old, that's well and good.

Bathroom splatter: A load of bollocks and easily preventable. And honestly, any guy can be messy, foreskin or not.

Balanitis: Since when was redness/itching a cause to cut off a body part? And honestly, frequent balanitis is a warning sign of diabetes that cut men don't have. A friend of mines dad got cut over frequent balanitis and turns out, he was diabetic - had he have known that was the cause, he would have been able to detect his diabetes sooner.

UTIs: Why cut a body part off to prevent this? Girls are more likely to get them than intact boys, should we cut them up too?

Bacteria: Should we cut off the hoods of women and sew them shut, because they've got way more than men.

STDs: Condoms, not surgery, prevents STDs.

Cancer: An intact man has a higher risk of breast cancer than penile cancer. Enough said.

Prostate cancer: I fail to even see how this one is related seeing as ALL MEN HAVE PROSTATES.

Cervical cancer: Cervical cancer is caused by HPV which is an STD. See my response on STDs.

http://www.circinfo.net/scaleat_end.jpg
That chart is just a joke

http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm
That one is much better.

Also, I'd go with the "you may have a penis, but I have a foreskin" on this one. Tell him you quite like your foreskin and he seems to enjoy it as well (if thats true hehe).
post #15 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by gridley13
In male babies the foreskin is lightly attached to the penis underneath it, much like the skin on an orange, and comes free over the course of the first few years of life.

This is as far as I got on that site... uh... sorry, but my ds's foreskin is not LIGHTLY attached!!! I certainly do not know HOW strongly it is attached because I have not tried to find out. But it is not lightly. How irritating.

I would agree with the previous posters that you should settle this before actually ttc- let him know for sure how serious you are about it.
That quote jogged my memory to a quote from the Men's Health article, Separated at Birth:

"The foreskin is peeled away like the rind of an orange. The baby is still crying. After several minutes, the doctor removes the clamp, pops off his gloves, and leaves. The nurse quickly applies an antiseptic ointment and returns the trembling child to his parents."

http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm



Jen
post #16 of 47
That's a really tough situation. I agree with the others though that I would not TTC any further with a man who was openly declaring that he would go behind my back to do something that I felt was offensive and abusive.


I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Hopefully he'll come around. After all, if this is a topic that is not up for discussion then he'll have to agree if he wants any more children.
post #17 of 47
How horrible! I am shocked he even wants to go through with circumcising, but especially shocked he'd go ahead and do it without your agreeance. I would not have another child with him unless he does the research and sees how barbaric, inhumane and cruel circing is. I wouldn't go ahead and get pregnant, in hope that he'll change his mind before baby is born, because he might NOT change his mind. And one day he might come home with a little boy with no foreskin Perhaps you can ask him to go along with you to a GP or Paediatrician (whom is anti-circ) for a chat about how unnecessary it is. He might be more convinced when hearing it from a medical professional. Otherwise, both of you compile a list, him of the benefits of circing (there aren't any but I'm sure he thinks there are) and you of the risks and downsides. Then compare them. Show him video footageof the procedure, links, get him to speak to other Dads of uncirced boys, and circed men who wish they'd been left intact. If he still maintains he's getting your son circed, I would actually consider whether you want the relationship to continue more than you want your child to be safe. I would NEVER have a child with someone so incredibly set on circing our son. To me, it's abuse. Sorry.
post #18 of 47
I agree that this is something that should be settled before trying to conceive. This would be a deal breaker for me.

He has presented you with the website of a well known circumcision fetishist. While the internet is an amazing resource, anybody can publish anything on it and you have to have the ability to separate those people who want to appear to be experts from those who really are and those who have ill intent from those who have your best interest at heart. You've got to hold his feet to the fire and make him present only sites of known medical associations from anywhere in the world. Absolutely none of them recommend circumcision! And some of them speak quite clearly against it.

As a man, the one that got me was that circumcised men suffer impotence 7 - 10 years earlier that intact men. Is that something he would want to visit on a son? I'm betting he wouldn't. If he would just to have him circumcised, he has no business having children. (Sorry, that's just the way I believe)



Frank
post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy
That's the personal webpage of Brian Morris, who is not a pediatrician or a urologist and has an unnatural interest in circumcision, traveling abroad to watch ritual circumcision ceremonies and such. And, both is website and his arguments are out of touch with every medical organization in the world NONE of which recommend routine infant circumcision.

There's also a complete rebuttal available online...

Rebuttal Part 1

Rebuttal Part 2

I would tell him, "Since I checked out your page, I want you to watch these..."

---

“The Prepuce”

(WMP, Streaming):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...C/prepuce.html

(WMP, Download-use “save link as”):

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...TSC_256k_D.wmv

---

http://asp.noterik.com/video/michael/CIRCUMCISION.mov

---

http://ftp.intact.ca/images/new025.mpeg

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.mov

Jen
: : : :
what great info
post #20 of 47
Eeeeeeeeewww. He gave to link to one of the biggest circ fetishers out there. He is laughed at here in Europe. Sad case.

I think you allready got the link to the circ video so as return, make him look at site you choose and show him the video.

There is also excellent information on Fathering Magazine;
http://www.fathermag.com/health/boy-care/

Want to know what foreskin is;
http://www.foreskin.org/page2.htm

Also you might want to read this to understand your husband better;

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Ask your husband does he know why circumcision is practised in USA(while almost 85% of world's men are intact). If not, show him this, "A Short History of Circumcision in the U.S. In Physicians' Own Words";

http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

Here in Scandinavia circumcision is viewed with same horror than FGM. Doctors refuse to do it. Ask your husband why he think that is? Why world's men are totally happy & healthy with their foreskins .

Make him think. Make him say aloud the reasons why he wants his son circumcised. And I agree with others - I would wait with everything until you have resolved this issue. Otherwise it will stay and haunt between you two forever. Sending you good thoughts.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Understanding Circumcision
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Understanding Circumcision › not so dear husband and circ-update