I haven't read others replies as I have book brain right now, and that's painful.
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Originally Posted by Kelleybug
Hi All,
I am a bit confused about herd immunity, so here goes.
I was brainwashed in nursing school, as well as NOT taught some information (Gee, like vaccines are FULL if chemicals that is a hazardous waste if spilled, but are safe to inject into our kids?  ) so I am struggling against little bit of the medicalized programming. Since coming to the forums and doing even more reading, I have since decided not to vax my kids- er at least anymore. Both my 4 yo DD and 3yo DS is fully vaxed to 18 months. My 8 month old had 1 set of vaxes against my better judgement. Anyway, I am still learning and growing and can't take back the past no matter how much I wish to.
So about the herd immunity thing, I think my mommy mush brain is missing some piece of logic here. Say vaxes work 80% of the time (yes, I know this is generous) then 80% of the population who received the vaccine is considered "immune" (also up for debate). It creates less "fertile soil" for the disease to survive, how does that not benefit others. |
This is where the theory comes in. The theory was that "herd immunity" would provide a barrier, and stop infection coming to unvaccinated children.
But it's never worked that way, and that is something they have consistently been quiet about.
I'm not going to put up references, because I'm knackered, but here are some accurate comments.
1) In the early trials in diphtheria vaccine they found that people could have no immunity aka the schick test, carry diphtheria, and yet NOT GET clinical diphtheria.
2) They also found that people could supposedly have immunity to diptheria, carry diphtheria and still GET diphtheria (don't ask me why. If they couldn't figure it out, I sure can't)
Now, logic would say, that no matter whether a person GETS clinical diphtheria, if they carry it, they can pass it.
Okay? With me so far?
3) We know no, from medical literature, that people carry what are called "commensal bacteria" in their noses and throats. If they did a swab in your hospital all you staff would be carry a variety of supposed pathogens including some, or all of the following bacteria: MRSA, haemophilus, pneumococcus, strep, diphtheroids... and whatever they specifically culture for, and get.
You may not get disease yourself, BUT you can pass it on.
As a nurse, you will have been taught (Well actually you might, and if not, you have to wonder why) that all of us carry strains of Neisseria meningitides AT LEAST 6 times a year, of many different types. That is why you and I are still alive today, yet have immunity.
HOWEVER, and here is where they hoodwink you. Should there be a CLINICAL CASE of, say, Meningitis C in your hospital, you will all be offered antibiotics and the Men C vaccine ON THE BASIS that you haven't had the disease therefore IPSO FACTO
you aren't immune. But are you not immune? Might it not be that, just as you got immunity to at least 24 other types of meningitis by carrying, processing, having no symptoms etc, that YOU MIGHT be immune, but that they don't know that? So why don't they test for it, instead of slamming needles into you nurses, and the patients contacts, as if you are all virgin ripe-for-the-killing grounds.
Does this ONLY apply to chickenpox?
http://id.medscape.com/reuters/prof/...14clin008.html
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Most Children With a Negative or Unknown Varicella History Are Immune.
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Dec 14 - Contrary to widely held beliefs, most 10-year-old children with negative or unknown chickenpox histories are actually immune to varicella, according to a report by Canadian investigators.
Dr. Bernard Duval, from Laval University in Quebec, and colleagues assessed the age-specific incidence of varicella among 2227 fourth grade students. A subset of children with negative or unknown chickenpox histories were tested for anti-varicella antibodies.
The study was performed to determine the proportion of children that would need to be vaccinated in a catch-up program, the researchers state in the NOVEMBER issue of the Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal
The reported cumulative incidence of chickenpox at 10 years of age was 92% the authors note. Furthermore, about half of the children developed chickenpox before entering kindergarten.
Of the childen with negative or unknown varicella histories 63% had antibodies against the virus. Children with an unknown history were significantly more likely than those with a negative history to harbor anti-varicella antibodies (p = 0.002). In addition, children whose history was obtained by self-administered questionnaire rather than by a study nurse were more likely to demonstrate such antibodies (p = 0.023).
If vaccination was based on the absence of a positive history of varicella, 8.4% of 10-year old children would require vaccination, the researchers note. However, the current findings indicate that nearly two thirds of children without a positive history are actually immune.
Prevaccination testing could identify children who are immune, but such testing could be difficult to implement and might reduce vaccine coverage. Follow-up telephone interview with parents who report negative or unknown histories for their children may help identify children who are actually immune.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
So, you may not have had chickenpox clinically, but does that mean you are NOT immune? Doesn't that apply to other diseases?
Yes:
http://www2.unescobkk.org/eubios/HGR/HGRCG.htm
pp. 205-210 in Human Genome Research and Society
Proceedings of the Second International Bioethics Seminar in Fukui, 20-21 March, 1992.
Editors: Norio Fujiki, M.D. & Darryl R.J. Macer, Ph.D.
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In most infections only a rare individual becomes ill or suffers rare complications, and that individual may be genetically predetermined, it usually is. For example, HTLV-1 infects 1-2 million Japanese, but only one in over a thousand gets adult advanced T cell leukemia after 40 years, and fortunately only about one in a thousand gets HAM, HTLV-1 associated myolopophy. Those unfortunate rare individuals are the problem, not the problem of the innocuous, or carriers, the other one thousand who die without ever knowing that they had it, and having no ill effect. The same can be said for poliomyelitis, where it takes 1,000 infected cases in order to induce a paralysis, the others don't know they were infected.
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With polio before the vaccine came along, they did serological surveys, and found that 98.2% of people carried antibodies. Well, why didn't that create herd immunity all the time? Why wasn't that immunity a barrier?
They didn't think that through at all. THIS is why we have polio cases in Africa right now. A lot of the people in Africa have been vaccinated over 30 (THIRTY - that was not a spelling mistake) times. BUT even though they have been vaccinated, they can still pick up, and pass on, polio virus. The only reason they keep doing OPV campaigns is to
try to interrupt transmission, to fill up the ecological space right then, and stop people passing it on.
If the POLIO vaccine created a barrier called
herd immunity then they wouldn't have to do serial vaccination campaigns in Africa, because once immune, you were part of the barrier, right? WRONG, it doesn't work that way.
But either they were faced with a dilemma, or they hadn't worked it out. The dilemma could have been that they weren't sure what the story was, but I don't believe that, because they KNEW that in the USA before the vaccine, that 98.2% of the population were immune. So why did they vaccinate everyone? To make you scared, and make you think that if you'd not had the clinical disease you must be susceptible?
I think, like Gadjusek said, they KNEW all right, but they couldn't afford to tell you, because if they told you, you wouldn't JUST go and have the vaccine, or automatically take up the vaccine.
You would ask the logical question which was
Am I immune? If I am, why should I have this vaccine?
I know that intellectually you KNOW that we are all a walking bacteriological and viral cesspool. The medical profession relies on the FACT that most people don't understand that what they see as clean skin, or a healthy throat, is a walking laboratory carrying and passing on, all manner of pathogens.
I mean... do you "see" yourself carry all these bacteria? Do you think about that, every day... "Oh, I wonder what species of meningitis I've just passed to my daughter today?" Because you have. We all do.
It's the wonder of the immune system that, as Gadjusek says, most of us process these things and
NEVER EVEN KNOW they were there, let alone that we processed them....
BUT.... Even though you have antibodies to all these bacteria and viruses, you can still carry them. That is how your body boosts your natural immunity. And you can still pass them on, just as you had them passed on to you in the first place.
Okay? With me so far?
4) Now, lets look at chickenpox. You catch it, and you get it right? Just because you have got it, does that mean you won't CARRY it again? No. And they know that, because they say that the increase in SHINGLES is because chickenpox isn't going around so much, therefore people aren't getting carriage, which would remind the immune system to keep on its toes. I'm not sure that that's the case actually. Perhaps its because the virus that is being shed is mainly vaccine virus, which the body doesn't quite recognise the same way as the original one? I'm just speculating, because no-one has done the research to see if this is the case...
However, this theory that there isn't as much chickenpox circulating (which I've not see an epidemiological article on to state that as proven fact by the way)... is why they are bringing out a SHINGLES vaccine, which, by the way is 14 times more potent than a chickenpox vaccine.
So, the primary reason that people don't get shingles normally, is that they regularly come in contact with, carry, and possible pass on to others, just as they got it in the first place, the varicella virus which in the past was the same as the wild one they got in the first place. What it is now, goodness only knows.
5) The SAME principle applies to ALL bacteria and ALL viruses. No matter whether you have HAD, or HAVE NOT HAD clinical disease, you will pick up, process and pass on to others whatever viruses you come in contact with.
6) You have whooping cough in USA at the moment. Who are the primary spreaders of whooping cough? The "unseen" people who are either vaccinated, naturally immune, or not immune but just passing it along.
Where the Herd Immunity theory falls down, is that the medical people have reductionist thinking just like flat earthers did. They assumed that if they didn't think it was there, or it didn't leap up and smack them around the face, it wasn't there.
BUT THEN.... they might have gone... "ooops... we got that wrong..." Next question.
SHOULD WE TELL ANYONE?
Tell me, what would then happen if they told everyone that ooops... the herd immunity (antibodies creates a barrier against spread) is... um... not working out in practice?
You know, logically that it doesn't provide a barrier. HOW CAN IT?
They THOUGHT in the beginning that immunity would mean barrier,[b]on the basis that they thought one attack meant life long immunity, therefore immunity would mean
being incapable of passing anything on . Trouble is, further down the line they discovered that just wasn't true. What were they supposed to do then? Admit they'd been fooled by their own assumptions? That immunity long term was dependant upon regular exposure, and like Bill Gates likes doing so much, regularly updating the software NATURALLY? They were just plain wrong about that, WITH THE EXCEPTION of tetanus, because the principle doesn't even apply since its not infectious, and therefore herd immunity isn't even relevant, but they've never bothered to honestly come out and say it, because it would remove the emotional blackmail message that everyone who
hasn't had the disease should have the vaccine.
When you know that's rubbish. You might not have had the disease, you might have antibodies, but by the same token, you can and will pass all bacteria that are circulating around to others without getting sick yourself.
Okay?
Now, if you know your diseases well enough, and have, for instance, followed the polio in Minnesota, you will see that the CDC said that the oral polio viruses had circulated at least 2 years before the isolates were picked up in unimmunised kids who never had clinical illness..
Amongst who had the polio viruses circulated?
Yes, amongst the vaccinated.
So tell me. How did herd immunity "help" the unvaccinated Amish children?
It didn't.
Mind you, they didn't get the disease, so remember this. It's only an accident we know about the polio virus isolates in Minnesota, so right there you have proof that the theory of "herd immunity" is an edwardian monkey. Or is that an insult to an Edwardian Monkey?
So they will then SAY that vaccines reduce the spread of viruses, as in the example above of chickenpox. But I'm not sure that that is the case.That is a hypothesis. Vaccination certainly hasn't stopped the spread of meningitis, pertussis or diphtheria. Vaccination against HIB has stopped the spread of CAPSULAR Hib, not not non-capsular, or other strains of Hib... and the hole that was made by the removal of HIB was immediately filled when Pneumococcus stepped in and took its place.
So the other thing that herd immunity can do, is cause holes, which are simply filled by yet another pathogen, which preys on the same immunological "breaches in defences" that the previous pathogen preyed on.
What you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts. That's why the death rate to infections never drops. Something else, just takes its place.
Oh and by the way, diphtheria is not a disease caused by a bacteria. We all carry the bacteria; it is ubiquitous, they just don't tell you that. But if they swabbed a hospital and cultured everyone with a specific culture to diphtheroid, we would all come up positive. That's why they stopped doing it. You only get diphtheria when a cyclical virus called a bacteriophage, hops into the drivers seat of the diphtheria bacteria and uses the lounge settee and internal computer of the diphtheria to make its own products (toxin) and cause what is then seen as toxigenic disease in whatever form that arises.
Got that?
Are you starting to see that a myth was perpetrated, by simply not telling you enough? And I suppose if you didn't think to think that they had not told you something, you might not put the illogic together of what they have said to you.
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On the other hand, keeping your immune system up and running the best you can also makes it difficult for any disease to blossom and grow, thereby just being exposed to an illness does not mean you are going to "get it".
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No, but as a nurse, you can still carry it and pass it on to someone else.
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I feel like the information is staring at me right in the face, however I am somehow missing the big picture.
Sorry for rambling. Thanks for any info!
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This is part of the big picture, and it makes sense to me, but I'm very tired, so might not have explained it properly. If you don't understand something I've said, just ask, but if you start researching diseases, how natural immunity is gained, you will see that I am right.
And you've been cleverly hoodwinked.
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