Thoughts on flouride??

[lexbeach]

When my pediatrician first recommended giving my boys a flouride supplement (I think when they were still infants), I did a bunch of research about it, and got totally freaked out and vowed to steer clear of the stuff. Where we live there is no flouride in the water, and we have used flouride-free toothpaste since I did my research, so my boys are totally flouride-free.

Fast forward a few years, and my ds has a bunch of cavities. My other ds (his twin) doesn't have any. I am feeling really conflicted about the flouride thing now. Does flouride actually help prevent cavities? Is it worth all the other yucky stuff about it? I sort of feel like flouride couldn't be the only issue here since my one ds doesn't have any cavities, and he didn't get any flouride either. I'm thinking it's more a genetic week enamel issue. But I don't want ds to just keep getting more and more cavities either. . .

What do you do/think?

TIA!

Lex

[LilithParker]

As far as I know, topical fluoride treatment only strengthens tooth enamel. This makes it harder for acids that cause cavities to stick to the teeth.

How is ds-with-cavities at brushing/flossing? Does he have the patience to brush twice a day for at least two minutes each time? That might be the reason for the difference... different brushing habits between the boys.

(As a kid I *hated* brushing my teeth, so while Mom was getting my sister ready for school or bed, I would run my toothbrush under the water and then say I had brushed my teeth. LOTS of cavities! I came to my senses late in high school, and I've had two small cavities in the seven or eight years since. Oh, and I had regular fluoride treatments as a kid. Brushing makes a MUCH bigger difference than fluoride does.)

[lexbeach]

We brush their teeth for them, so there haven't been any differences in brushing habits between the two. But their teeth look very different, so they obviously have genetically different teeth, whether the enamel is genetically different or not, I don't know for sure.

My issue with the topical flouride (like in toothpaste) is that they aren't very good at spitting out the toothpaste yet. Sometimes they will try to spit, but not much at all comes out. So whatever I put on their teeth will most likely be swallowed. If I were going to use some kind of flouride, would it make more sense to give them the kind that is meant to be swallowed, or to use the topical kind knowing that they would be swallowing it?

TIA!

Lex

[srain]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

If I were going to use some kind of flouride, would it make more sense to give them the kind that is meant to be swallowed, or to use the topical kind knowing that they would be swallowing it?

Good question- I don't know the answer to that, but if you go with toothpaste, can you minimize the amount they'll swallow by wiping their teeth with a damp cloth after brushing? Or turning spitting into a game- hey, with two of them, they can compete to see who can spit the farthest out the window.

I've been thinking about fluoride lately too- if someone has links to arguments against using TOPICAL fluoride, I'd love to see them.

[Bartock]

According to my Dad who did ALOT of research on non-organic stuff when my step mom (RIP) had brain Cancer as anything she used was all organic. He said we may as well put toxic waste in our mouths, as fluoride is not good. Not sure what he meant by that but my dad is a non BS man.

[Stephanie L.]

I have understood it to be hazardous and not worth it. Do a great brush job and the teeth are CLEAN! Brush the tongue, too, to be sure. Using fluoride is not worth the risks later in life.

[lauriem33]

I would highly recommend everyone to read "The Fluoride Deception" by Christopher Bryson. It will really open your eyes to the whole issue of fluoride and you will not use it again. Lex, be glad your water doesn't have fluoride in it. ilovemy2ds' dad was right that it is a toxin. It comes from the "sludge" of industrial smokestacks. :Puke

[lexbeach]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't gotten a chance to re-research it yet, but I thought you all would be able to remind me of how horrible flouride is.

So, for those of you who also have flouride-free kids, have your kids had lots of cavities?

Thanks,

Lex

[JaneS]

Fluoridation: The Fraud of the Century
http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxin...tionfraud.html

Fluoride: Worse Than We Thought
http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/fluoride.html

tons of links at Mercola.com
http://www.mercola.com/article/links/fluoride_links.htm

[Bartock]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

Thanks for the responses. I haven't gotten a chance to re-research it yet, but I thought you all would be able to remind me of how horrible flouride is.

So, for those of you who also have flouride-free kids, have your kids had lots of cavities?

Thanks,

Lex

Our water does not have Toxic waste AKA flouride in it so we just have toxic toothpaste, he is 5 and NOT good at brushing his teeth at all, will hardly ever let me do it for him, and had never been to the dentist(he's way to scared to go) His teeth look great I always look for cavities and have never seen any. My DH belives that dentists are evil and create work for themselves, for example the stick that pick thing into our teeth, DH thinks they do this to open up our teeth abit so a cavity can form. Sounds crazy but I belive him, I use to go to the dentist all the time and brush my teeth all the time(still do). And he hardly ever went to the dentist when he was younger, and I know he don't brush as much as I do. I have way more filling than he does he has 1 I have 1 on the bottom and all my mollars on the top. So go figure maybe he has a point, he also thinks that toothpaste(maybe the toxic waste part of it)does damage to our teeth. That could be true to.

[Gitti]

As far as I know, topical fluoride treatment only strengthens tooth enamel. This makes it harder for acids that cause cavities to stick to the teeth.

But kids who use fluoride have more cavities at the base of the teeth.

And will see a weakening of their bones by the time they are 40.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

Fluoride is very nasty stuff and should never be allowed to be in our water. It is outlawed in Europe.

I raised three kids on well water - no fluoride in toothpaste, nor at the dentist, and none had cavities until they went to college.

I believe it depends more on whether the child drinks a lot of juice and eats sweets or not. Juice is the main culprit for young children.

Our kids drank only water as do our grandchildren and there are no cavities in their teeth either. Now you can't say that it is in their genes, because I had lots of cavities, but I had lots of sugar in my childhood. Dh had some cavities.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by ilovemy2ds

Our water does not have Toxic waste AKA flouride in it so we just have toxic toothpaste, he is 5 and NOT good at brushing his teeth at all, will hardly ever let me do it for him, and had never been to the dentist(he's way to scared to go) His teeth look great I always look for cavities and have never seen any. My DH belives that dentists are evil and create work for themselves, for example the stick that pick thing into our teeth, DH thinks they do this to open up our teeth abit so a cavity can form. Sounds crazy but I belive him, I use to go to the dentist all the time and brush my teeth all the time(still do). And he hardly ever went to the dentist when he was younger, and I know he don't brush as much as I do. I have way more filling than he does he has 1 I have 1 on the bottom and all my mollars on the top. So go figure maybe he has a point, he also thinks that toothpaste(maybe the toxic waste part of it)does damage to our teeth. That could be true to.

I'm sure there are some unscrupulous dentists out there, but there are good ones too. I've gone to the dentist every six months for the last 26 years, and I've never had a cavity, or any other dental issues that required any extra dental work. Dh also goes to the dentist every 6 months, but he gets cavities all the time. That mostly has to do with the acidity of a person's saliva, and "soft" enamal on the teeth. I believe both of those things are genetic.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Doodlebugsmom

That mostly has to do with the acidity of a person's saliva, and "soft" enamal on the teeth. I believe both of those things are genetic.

My reseach has shown that its the minerals in the saliva and the nutrition of the person. As well as the nutrition of your mother when you are in the womb. Genetics have nothing to do with teeth other than the nutrition of your family line.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by JaneS

My reseach has shown that its the minerals in the saliva and the nutrition of the person. As well as the nutrition of your mother when you are in the womb. Genetics have nothing to do with teeth other than the nutrition of your family line.

Interesting. I've not had great nutrition throughout my life. I've been a sugar addict for most of my life. I've drank more soda than most people have. There is no explanation for the condition of my teeth other than luck, or genetics. Since neither my mom, her brother, her sister, or my sister have ever had a cavity, it's hard for me to believe that genetics has absolutely nothing to do with it. Plus, none of my first cousins on my mom's side have ever had a cavity. My dad has had lots and lots of cavities. All of our diets are very similar, except that my sister, dad and I have major sweet tooths! We have consumed lots of sugar over our lifetimes. That said, my mom probably had much better nutrition during pregnancy than dh's mom did. Who knows? I'm sure you've done much more research than I have. I'm just going by my personal experience here.

[lexbeach]

It's hard for me to believe that genetics don't play a role, at least in some cases. My kids are twins, so they had the same womb environment, and they eat all the same foods, drink only water, have very little sugar intake (they actually don't seem to like it much--didn't touch their birthday cakes), get their teeth brushed by us twice a day, and one of them has a ton of cavities while the other has none. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that they just have genetically different teeth and that cavity-twin's teeth are weaker in some way. It is a frustrating explanation in that it doesn't leave room for me to do much in the way of preventing more cavities. For now, I am just removing dried fruit from their diet (they didn't really eat much of it anyway, just occassional raisins at friends' houses), and trying to brush their teeth three times a day. We will stay flouride-free.

Lex

[JaneS]

Lex,

Your boys' situation is very interesting to me. I wonder what other WAPF mamas like Toraji would say. My only other thought would be how well the twin with cavities is absorbing his nutrients (any digestive issues? eats more soy?)

Congratulations on the new baby!!

Susan,

My understanding is that it's not only dietary habits while you're an adult but the amount of nutrients that your mother consumed (minerals in addition to vitamin A and D) while you were in the womb and forming your teeth.

If anyone is interested in reading more about nutrition and teeth formation and health, Weston Price's book, "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" is the one to read.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ry_wisdom.html

[toraji]

re: fluoride
I am totally opposed to internal fluoride consumption. I don't think it should exist in our water supply, and that it just does bad things to the body.

However, I am convinced of topical fluoride's effects as it was the tipping point that completely killed my DD's decay. You can read my story and fluoride suggestions on this thread here: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=419877

Lex-
Is it Lukas that has the decay? Or Jasper? Do they have different eating patterns, like does one eat more veggies than the other, or do they both prefer the same things? Does one have any health issues that the other does not (allergies, eczema, etc)? While they both did have the same womb environment, certain genetic components can indeed play a part, like celiac or allergies which can cause one twin to have problems absorbing nutrients over the other. Also, I've heard anectdotal reports of one twin taking more than their fair share of nutrients over the other in the womb, making one "stronger" in their life force (chi) than the other after they are born. Since they are fraternal then they'd be working with a different egg/sperm combo which could also play a part.

Also, I've heard that fevers during pregnancy and in the infant anywhere between 4-9 months are correlated with tooth decay, as well as antibiotic use during pregnancy and premature birth. But you'd think anything during pregnancy or birth would affect both twins, not just one.

This is all just guesswork on my part, but could possibly give you some ideas...

[lexbeach]

Originally Posted by toraji

Lex-
Is it Lukas that has the decay? Or Jasper? Do they have different eating patterns, like does one eat more veggies than the other, or do they both prefer the same things? Does one have any health issues that the other does not (allergies, eczema, etc)? While they both did have the same womb environment, certain genetic components can indeed play a part, like celiac or allergies which can cause one twin to have problems absorbing nutrients over the other. Also, I've heard anectdotal reports of one twin taking more than their fair share of nutrients over the other in the womb, making one "stronger" in their life force (chi) than the other after they are born. Since they are fraternal then they'd be working with a different egg/sperm combo which could also play a part.

It's Jasper who has the decay. In thinking about this more, I did point out to myself (and dw) that even though the boys shared my womb, Lukas was born a whole lot bigger than Jasper. They were born two weeks early, and Lukas weighed 8 lbs, 7 oz, and Jasper weighed 6 lbs. 4 oz. Everyone said that Jaz was still a great sized baby for being a twin, and two weeks early, but I always wondered if his placenta wasn't quite as fabulous as the one Lukas got. They are about the same size now, so I don't think the size difference at birth was a genetic difference (that's what everyone said for awhile). Jasper is also more prone to diarrhea now, whereas Lukas always has perfect poops. But it's Lukas who has all the allergies and sensitive skin. I think they really eat the same foods (although Lukas is cow dairy free, he eats goat products instead. . . Jasper eats very little cow dairy, but does have some), if anything Jasper eats more green foods (he takes a chlorella supplement that Lukas refuses). So, I'm thinking that maybe it was something in the womb, some discrepency between their placentas that caused his teeth to not be as strong.

I think we'll wait until the boys are really able to not swallow their toothpaste at all, and then we may try some topical flouride to see if that helps.

Thanks for all the great insight!!

Lex

[carnelian]

What about using high-vitamin cod liver oil? Something like Blue Ice for example. There is a lot of evidence that not only vitamin D but also vitamin A plays a role in bone health. The tricky thing is to get the right ratio, both are necessary in the proper amounts and with the high vitamin CLOs the proper ratio occurs naturally.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by lexbeach

Jasper is also more prone to diarrhea now, whereas Lukas always has perfect poops. But it's Lukas who has all the allergies and sensitive skin. I think they really eat the same foods (although Lukas is cow dairy free, he eats goat products instead. . . Jasper eats very little cow dairy, but does have some)

My DS doesn't have decay but he does have digestive issues and tends to collect tartar/calculus right now. He is prone to diarrhea and he has been dropping in the height charts rapidly since being weaned...as his gut went downhill too. All this means his mineral transport/absorption is impaired. So I would suggest that Jasper's gut could be an issue. Chronic diarrhea is indicative of digestive problems... the peds all say it's normal, they've said that to me too, but my son has the stool bacterial tests to show that it's not.

I'd up Jasper's minerals in addition to the A&D, especially if he doesn't eat much cow dairy. The only other source of calcium rather than milk products that I would trust to be absorbed and utilized by a young child, especially with digestive issues, would be homemade bone broths. The calcium in their diets definately effects the teeth and greens and other sources of calcium just isn't enough or well digested to really make a difference.

My guy can only do goat yogurt right now, and I've finally got him consistently on a raw grassfed source.