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EC and AP - Page 3

post #41 of 75
It's always been easy for me to see that you teach your child that it is alright, even good for them to eliminate in their diapers, and that is why it is sometimes challenging to potty train them later. It seems that with most everything else the earlier you start the easier it is - why not using the toilet?

For the past week or so ds has been going without a diaper for the majority of the day, because he has a nasty diaper rash. As of now, we have not been sucseesful, even once, in getting ds to use the toilet of potty chair. The closest he got was yesterday, when he peed in a tea cup, which was half full with tea! That means that almost every time he has eliminated it has been on the floor, etc. We do have hardwood floors, which make a big difference, but even still it is not hard to clean it up. He is learning to controll himself very quickly! I am amazed at his progress.

Ds loves to have his little bum bare! He is happy, and I don't mind cleaning up the accidents. Even weeks ago I would have been shoked at this idea, and I would have said it would never work.

The first time I heard of this method was from soemthign I read by the Pearls. They are much like Ezzo, IMO they are worse. They talk about this kind of thing, so of course, I wrote it off as another way sick people want to controll their children. But that's not what it is at all! Perhaps some people abuse it, just as people will abuse anything. I really think that EC is amazing, and simple. I honestly don't know why more people don't do it.
post #42 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by lunar forest
The first time I heard of this method was from soemthign I read by the Pearls. They are much like Ezzo, IMO they are worse. They talk about this kind of thing, so of course, I wrote it off as another way sick people want to controll their children.
OMG yes! I just found out they do this and it was so upsetting. Almost like if Ezzo promoted slings or something. I can't imagine how many AP moms find out the Pearl's do EC (or whatever they call it) and then immediately write it off
post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by momsgotmilk4two
I have to say that after reading a bit more about EC, I very much disagree with a lot of this.
Wow, you sound angry! THere is so much to respond to here, let me try to do it without making you more upset.

First, my son cries when I try to pee him and he doesn't want to go (or he fusses or arches). Being an attentive mom, I respect that and take him off the potty (EC is not about *forcing* them to pee!). He also cries if he's in a soft, cuddly cloth diaper and pees himself. Doesn't your child ever pee from a diaper change? My dd did constantly which had nothing to do with EC cuz I didn't know of it then. My ds is now getting to the age where he doesn't want to have his diaper changed so I'm thankful for EC. If I can't pee him cuz he sometimes cries and I can't put him in a diaper cuz he sometimes cries, then what option is left?

Second, why can't I leave the house? I don't think you've read any of *my* posts Yes, we use diapers when out. Yes, we EC when out I take him to public restrooms, remove his diaper, pee him (or respect that he doesn't want to at that time) and then put the dry diaper back on. EC is not about being forced to stay home anymore than bf is! Since we've started EC, DS has been to the park, the library, the museum, playgroups, his grandparents, his great-grandparents, Christmas Eve at my aunts, the grocery store, two wakes and one funeral, Target, Olive Garden, a pizza parlor etc. He has not been to the beach yet cuz we're in NJ so it's a tad cold :LOL

Yes, making a cueing sound is part of "training" the baby, just as letting him go in a diaper is "training" him to go in a diaper. Just an aside, I never understand why people object to the term training. What's so bad about it? At dictionary.com "To coach in or accustom to a mode of behavior or performance.". My child is becomming accustomed to going in a potty. My first child was accustomed to going in a diaper. They were both trained

I'm sorry you're so angry about this. It's not just another thing in an AP crunchier than thou contest and I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sure my response hasn't changed your mind, but I did want to address some of it.

Lunar mom said "I am always glad to know that there are people doing more radical things than I"

LOL!! Me too!!! I love knowing moms who have had UC or lotus birth or who ate their placenta or who are nursing kids older than mine or whatever! I love it when I'm chatting with some people and suddenly realize I feel mainstream in their company
post #44 of 75

Congradulations to ds!

YAY!

Ds just woke up from a long nap (without a diaper) and he didn't pee!!! I brought him to the bathroom, sat him on his potty chair, and he started to fuss. My first reaction was to take him off, but my intuition said not to. I started to scratch his back (his favorite thing) and he calmed down - and PEED!!!! This is the first time!!

He was a little shy about it, and when I told dh about it ds son shook his head and said "no, I didn't."

Anyway, I wanted to share our breakthrough with you!
post #45 of 75
Well, I don't think anyone is getting "angry" ... just different opinions engaged in discussion. I for one don't have an opinion, admit to being ignorant, yet skeptical, I admit

MomW2, Thanks for your reply. I did understand that people were using toilets, sinks, etc. But I was talking about someone who admitted to "Only missing 1-3 pees per day" (Don't know who said it and I mean no offense) but to ME, that's a LOT. I personally don't want to clean up 1-3 "accidents" per day, especially if it's on mattresses or furniture, carpet, etc. (Places hard to fully clean).

How do you reconcile the EC thought with (What I always thought) was discouragement against "Too early potty training"? I held off potty training until I knew my son was "Ready", and in doing so, THOUGHT that I was doing an "AP" act by not pushing it. (As I said before, the results were basically over-night sucess and he had only 1 pee accident, which was during the first 12 hours). I guess I'm just confused. I was always against potty training "Too soon" because often, kids have weeks/months/even years of accidents due to this. Having an "accident", especially in public, can be kind of humiliating for a child - child sitting on the floor at story hour in the library makes a huge wet stain on the carpet. From what I've read, it sounds like children who are "EC'd" have many accidents, as well. Couldn't this be harmful to their self-esteem? Or do they not have that many and I'm reading that into this?

Again, admitting my ignorance here And to clarify, I'm not "defensive" or "angry", just curious.
post #46 of 75
Yay, Lunar Forest! Congratulations!


JDs Mommy, there is a big difference between Elimination Communication and potty training (early or otherwise). Potty training happens after a baby has already been trained to use diapers to eliminate into. Diapers teach a baby to ignore her body's signals, so that she eventually cannot tell when she needs to go. That is why potty training is so difficult. EC, on the other hand, helps a baby to keep in touch with the ability to regulate her elimination, which she has from birth. She never learns that the diaper is the place she's supposed to go, so she doesn't have to unlearn it.

Early potty training (after a baby has become dependent upon dipes) is traumatic. In the '50s, moms would force a baby to stay on a potty until they went and would even stick slivers of soap into their bottoms to make them poop. EC only works if the baby is still in touch with her body and is not used to diapers. No EC mother would force her baby to potty; it would be wrong to do that. If a baby has already become used to diapers, though, I totally agree that the best course of action is to wait until the child self-initiates potty training.

I don't know how clear that was, but I hope it helps
post #47 of 75
Quote:
Diapers teach a baby to ignore her body's signals, so that she eventually cannot tell when she needs to go.
: ~ I am sure baby does get used to going potty in his/her dipe...but that does not mean they don't know when they need to go, it just means that when they need to go, they go in their diaper.

I think this debate is moot at this point... I am happy that we have so many pasionate Mamas here... saying that... I will exit stage left.
post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by JDsMommy
MomW2, Thanks for your reply. I did understand that people were using toilets, sinks, etc. But I was talking about someone who admitted to "Only missing 1-3 pees per day" (Don't know who said it and I mean no offense) but to ME, that's a LOT. I personally don't want to clean up 1-3 "accidents" per day, especially if it's on mattresses or furniture, carpet, etc. (Places hard to fully clean). [/B]
Well, I guess it depends on the age of your babe, and how mobile they are. My almost 4mo (OMG I can't believe he's almost 4mo!!!!) ds and I average about 1-3 misses a day (out of say 15-20 pees, not counting nights which I do a sort of half-EC depending on how sleepy I am). And they really are no big deal. Around the house he wears undies and pants and basically his pants get wet, and sometimes I get a little wet, but I have never had a big mess. Often he is naked when we're in the bathroom (pre- and post-bathtime) and sometimes pees then, but is on a towel so no biggie.

I had been afraid of "mess" and had been scared to go diaper-free, but since I have we actually have fewer misses and it all seems much simpler. I do use some common sense, and when he's in the bed w/no diaper (like right now) he has a waterproof wool pad and a prefold under him in case of pee, and when i am sitting with him on the sofa I lay a towel over the sofa. Actually, we have a lot more trouble with his frequent spitups and the smell and mess they cause. (And I dont think anyone would recommend that babies wear a mask to contain their spitup until a convenient time to clean them up.) When we go out I use dipes, and just got some poquito pants and used one when we went to a friends house for a few hours on Sat. It came home dry, and I had some peace of mind that i wasn't going to wet my friends house.

I don't feel like I am potty training him. I feel like I am showing him that I hear him and respect that he is communicating to me that he needs to be taken somewhere where he can pee or poop. Our response to missed pees is a smile, giggle and "Oh, you peed! I wasn't expecting that!" or "Oh, yeah I knew you needed to pee and was just trying to get one more thing done. Let's go change your pants". If anything the EC'd child would be less likely to just pee without realizing it at a later age (like your story hour example) because they have always been encouraged to stay in touch with their bodily sensations. My 3.5yo ds (cd'd, self-trained at 2.75yo) has a number of friends who are still in full time disposible diapers, and I can see these tiny people struggling because they DO feel self-concious if they have an "accident" but are have a very hard time monitoring their need to pee/poop sensations, so they are unwilling to give up the dipes. My perception is that my EC'd son will always have his bodily awareness (never having been encouraged to just tune the signals out) and will also have a great deal of comfort that if he does get wet he will just change and be dry again.

HTH,

Rachel M

mama to Isaiah 7/99 and
Simon 10/02 joyous home VBAC, ec'd from birth
post #49 of 75
Just to clarify, I am not angry. I was typing fast and didn't have much time to say all that I specifically disagreed with, so maybe it came off as kind of abrupt. I don't disagree with EC in and of itself, although I must admit that some of the talk that I've read on ECing threads about how "bad" a baby did that day or how mom was just so disappointed in herself for not being able to read babies pee and poop cues that day, or should she give baby a "break" from EC when he's sick does kind of bother me, in the same way, I might imagine, that talk of absorbancy by cding moms bugs some ECers. It's not something that makes me angry, just something that makes me think that EC is not right for my baby and me.

Just as some EC'ers are saying that they are of the opinion that EC is the most natural, best thing to do with their baby, I honestly feel that diapering is the most natural, best thing I can do for my baby. I don't agree with the statement that letting a baby go in a diaper is training him to ignore his pee signals. I think that letting him just go whenever he wants to go and then changing him promptly is the best thing to do for my baby. It does not bother me that others feel differently about this issue. It does sometimes seem like on the EC threads, ECers hold themselves up as the ideal, saying that EC will one day be just part of AP. It is fine with me that they have that opinion, but I disagree with it and am a tad bit offended when they make statements like "you can't diaper and be AP because you're ignoring your babies cues". I don't see why ECers are allowed to share their beliefs and have thier opinions on the subject, but when a diapering mamma speaks up and says that she thinks diapers are best or that she disagrees with EC being the ideal, she gets called angry or is confronted: It seems like there is a double standard going on.

I am not trying to attack anyone here. Just sharing my perspective.
post #50 of 75
I just wanted to say that I really do think EC will one day be part of AP. AP parents seem to think that the best thing for babies is that which most closely follows the way in which babies were treated as our speices evolved. 'The Continuum Concept' and 'Our Babies, Ourselves', the two big academic treatises on AP, both advocate this, and I think a lot of us accept it. We sling, cosleep, and breastfeed because it really is the natural thing to do. A lot of people point to how folks in less-industrialized cultures parent as being more "in touch" with our babies' needs. Most of those people practice a form of EC. Diapers did not exist as our species was evolving and I think that over time, many AP parents will grow to realize that diapers are not necessary and are not natural.
I think it's just fine for a mother to believe that diapers are the best thing for her baby, but I don't think they're the natural choice at all.
post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by Raven7
Actually, we have a lot more trouble with his frequent spitups and the smell and mess they cause. (And I dont think anyone would recommend that babies wear a mask to contain their spitup until a convenient time to clean them up.)
Don't make me laugh! I have often sarcastically told dh we need to diaper ds's head :-) He used to be a spit monster. Thank goodness it mostly went away. Baby pee? No problem! Spit up? Man, I wash that stuff over and over before the lingering smell *finally* gets out of his clothing!


Momsgotmilk4two, *I* am the one who said you seemed angry. I didn't mean it to be rude, but wow, that was some post! I could feel the heat, lol! I'm sorry if I misinterpreted it but are you sure you weren't at least a little pissy when you wrote it? I tried to answer as nicely as I could, I was not ticked off or anything and not trying to attack you, but it did seem to be a very angry post to me. I didn't think I was being confrontational, but thought your concerns should be answered. Sorry I offended you!
post #52 of 75
Hi JDs Mommy!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JDsMommy

"I was talking about someone who admitted to "Only missing 1-3 pees per day" <> to ME, that's a LOT. I personally don't want to clean up 1-3 "accidents" per day, especially if it's on mattresses or furniture, carpet, etc. (Places hard to fully clean)."

LOL, I fully understand that, and agree! With a newborn baby, yes, there'll be "misses", but the baby will be in your arms, on a piece of cloth, pehaps, not climbing on the sofa. With a mobile child there need be no misses. Some EC only part-time, use diapers or just have poor "success" because we have culturally distanced ourselves from this practice a long long time ago. What you hear about are westerners trying to reclaim a natural practise, with some imperfection, as can be expected.

Personally we had no problems with ongoing "misses" at all, basically dd was independent with pottying right after age one.

"How do you reconcile the EC thought with (What I always thought) was discouragement against "Too early potty training"?"

A diapered child becomes incontinent, and looses control of both the musculature that holds and the musculature that releases urine and stool. Toilet training means that the child has to both intellectually understand that it is no longer desirable to eliminate in a diaper, as well as figure out how to use the relevant musculature and regain control of it. Therefore the process becomes relatively hard, and is easier when the child is a bit older.

An EC'd child is allowed to maintain both the awareness and control over this musculture, and therefore there is no such training involved. The only thing the child learns is that there is a place this process to happen, and that adults will respond to his need when it arises and help him eliminate in the correct place. A completely different process, in other words.

"Having an "accident", especially in public, can be kind of humiliating for a child - child sitting on the floor at story hour in the library makes a huge wet stain on the carpet. "

This is likely to happen to a child that doesn't have complete awareness of her/his needs and a musculature that is weakened, i.e. d diapered child. Dd had an amazing ability to hold e.g. her pee for a long time already as a very small baby. Not because she had to, I'd keep a potty in the car at all times, for example, but because she *preferred* to pee in a bathroom. Actually, she's more continent than I am, LOL.

"From what I've read, it sounds like children who are "EC'd" have many accidents, as well. Couldn't this be harmful to their self-esteem? Or do they not have that many and I'm reading that into this?"

I'm sure some EC'd kids have accidents, but they are probably tiny babies. Accidents in EC'd toddlers aren't indicative of ECing as an approach, but more of a less than perfect result when ECing is practiced by a westerner without cultural support, poor intuition etc. We never had that problem at all, so I know an EC'd baby can be as continent, and as able to contain their elimination until in a proper place, as an adult.

The important key here is that little babies are continent *if allowed to be*, that's what most people (including the docs that keep telling us they aren't) aren't aware of, and that's why ECing is poorly understood, or easily misunderstood.

"Again, admitting my ignorance here And to clarify, I'm not "defensive" or "angry", just curious. "

Hey, happy to "meet" people curious about EC'ing !
post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by momsgotmilk4two
I must admit that some of the talk that I've read on ECing threads about how "bad" a baby did that day or how mom was just so disappointed in herself for not being able to read babies pee and poop cues that day, or should she give baby a "break" from EC when he's sick does kind of bother me, in the same way, I might imagine, that talk of absorbancy by cding moms bugs some ECers. It's not something that makes me angry, just something that makes me think that EC is not right for my baby and me.
I sort of agree with you here. I do think some ECing moms need to relax!!! It doesn't mean that EC is bad, but if a mom trys to do ANYTHING perfectly, it's going to stress her out. I am very laid back about EC so it works great for us But I have also met moms stressed out about bf and disappointed in herself over not doing well and I would never say that she should give up bf. As with bf, if EC is not going well, seek help, do some reading on it, RELAX and keep trying!

And as an aside, *I* never say my boy is doing badly HE does not have accidents. *I* have misses! There is no self esteem problem here, he's clueless, lol!

Also, my 4 y/o conventionally toilet trained (when she initiated it) dd still has accidents. We are very matter of fact about it. We don't shame her or make a big deal out of it, we just change the bed or (for the rare public accident) we take her undies off or stuff some paper towels in them. I think how the people around her react to accidents is key in how the child will think of them. I guess personality also comes into play but for *most* kids accidents are a fact of life for awhile and they should know it's ok
post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally posted by momsgotmilk4two
JI don't disagree with EC in and of itself, although I must admit that some of the talk that I've read on ECing threads about how "bad" a baby did that day or how mom was just so disappointed in herself for not being able to read babies pee and poop cues that day, or should she give baby a "break" from EC when he's sick does kind of bother me, in the same way, I might imagine, that talk of absorbancy by cding moms bugs some ECers. It's not something that makes me angry, just something that makes me think that EC is not right for my baby and me.
I'm most likely one you've read about getting down on myself about misses (which are my problem, not the baby's; DD never has a "bad day" but there are days I miss nearly every pee!) I myself tend to be a perfectionist, and I sometimes hold myself up to difficult-to-achieve standards. But I'm like that with other things, EC notwithstanding. I posted something specifically about my need to loosen up and realize this is a learning process, and that I've noticed when I've been more relaxed about EC, we've had fewer misses. EC doesn't "make" us hard on ourselves any more than BFing or CDing or raising children in general does. But some of us are by nature harder on ourselves about our shortcomings, imperfections, etc.

You and ShannonCC are right that we need to relax, but then that's already something I've been working on, and its something that's specifically stressed by Ingrid Bauer in Natiral Infant Hygiene.

My point, though, is that just because some of us who happen to practice EC happen also to struggle with letting go of our imperfections, doesn't mean EC is to blame, nor is EC "bad" because of it.

Also, no one has said you can't diaper and be AP. Some have said that EC will likely be considered part of AP some day, but that statement alone doesn't mean using diapers will preclude you from "being" AP. Ahleema specifically said she sees EC as another tool in the AP toolbox (not the only one!!).

I think we would all agree that we strive to meet our childrens' needs promptly, regardless of whether that means using cloth, disposable, EC, or some combination thereof. What matters most is what works for *you* and *your* family. I haven't seen anyone here suggest that what works for one family will work for all.
post #55 of 75
If I sounded pissy, I wasn't coming acrross the way I wanted to come accross. Sorry about that. If I sounded a tad bit defensive, that is probably because the opening post on this thread said that she believed that diapering was NOT AP. She very clearly said that, and then later took it back saying EC was just another tool with APing: Maybe she was just playing devils advocate? I don't see how EC would fit into my lifestyle (I can't make it to a public restroom the second one of the kids has to pee and I have more than one in diapers), but I can see that it works wonderfully for some. I'm always happy to learn new things as long as the tone isn't confrontational, which I felt this thread was. I'm okay now. I think I'll just drop it and leave the others to discuss
post #56 of 75
Hey there, been gone a good portion of this day and just had a chance to read through the extent of this thread and the other two related threads.

This thread is deviating on and off topic to the extreme. The origination of this thread being EC and how it relates to AP.

Let me remind you to be respectful of each other as mommas that desire only the best for their babies (and recognizing that what YOU think is best might not be the same as another momma).

Please, feel free to state your stance on EC as it relates to AP and work out any strong disagreements using Private Mail.
post #57 of 75
This is an interesting thread. I do think that AP isn't in the details- like what you diaper/don't diaper with- but how you meet your kid's needs promptly. Who is really to say what is AP or not? I personally use cloth diapers- had never heard of EC before. I am in interested enough in it to read this whole thread, but not sure if I will actually do it. There is always someone doing "more," no matter what it is.
post #58 of 75
Quote:
and would even stick slivers of soap into their bottoms to make them poop
I remember once my mom and grandma holding me down and doing this to me. It was *awful*!! Why did people do this??? It's abusive IMO!

I was talking to another mom at a playgroup thing and she's totally not AP. We talked about potty training and I told her I was waiting until dd was ready. Her son is also two and she said she trained him over Christmas break. I asked how it was going and she said he does well, only a couple accidents a day. I asked how she reacted to them and she said she only spanked him if she thought the accidents are on purpose!! Yikes!

I loved EC when we did it! I remember when dd was 6 mos. old and we were at a craft fair. I put her in a diaper and she started getting squirmy and then shouted "done" her cue word and then started crying. I ran for a bathroom and held her over the toilet and she went! Her diaper was also dry when I took it off! Some people don't believe that story but I know many ECers have similar ones.

Regardless of how we feel on the topic, I'm really enjoying reading this thread and learning so much about everyone's views. So thank you!

Darshani
post #59 of 75
Thread Starter 

Hey, I'll take the rap for mean EC'er....

Way back on another thread, Donna wrote:
" I never heard of this concept before reading on the boards here. I have to admit, if I hadn't read about it here, I would have thought it was some Babywise kind of thing. I don't understand how it is linked to Attachment Parenting in the way that I understand the concept of AP."

So, then, to turn the whole idea on it's head, and to get people to question what their definitions of AP were, and why they felt diapering vs EC were or were not "AP", I then wrote this:

"Taking the *other side* of this first, I believe that diaper-training is NOT AP because you are not responding to the child's inherent need to eliminate and not soil themselves."

Shocking? Yes! I hope it was! My goal has always been to get people to QUESTION the societal norm of diaper training their babies.... this is a *new* practice, that deserves to be questioned and re-evaluated often.

AP, to me, seems to be about getting back to the basics, getting back to the way our ancient ancestors would have related to their children. (Dr. Sears, who coined the term, was heavily influenced by Jean Liedloff, who observed EC in action and spoke of it in The Continuum Concept) And from what we know, these ancestors breastfed, co-slept, carried their babies, and *practiced EC*. THIS is why I truly believe that in 50 years, EC will be much more of the norm.... all it takes is for people to "rediscover" this practice, just like babywearing, bfding, etc all have had their rediscovery and addition into the AP pantheon. I am constantly amazed at "AP" parents who talk about trying to live as naturally and back to these primal roots, yet ignore EC.

I am a challenging person..... and my point was to turn the idea of EC *not* being AP on it's head, and instead turn and challenge the automatic idea of diapering being AP!

And the good news is, last time I checked, I don't get to decide what things constitute official AP behaviour.. LOL... so why listen to me anyway?

Ahleemah - rabble rouser, questioner, and status quo rebel
post #60 of 75

EC Success

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to breifly share my current EC situation.

With my 1st daughter I discovered Elimination Communication, or Natural Infant Hygiene by chance, at 3 months, acting on her signals just like her need to nurse, take a nap, etc. It wasn't until about a year later that I discovered any reference to what I was doing.

On February 4th we had our second daughter and began to EC her at the age of 2 days. At first we manage 1 -2 catches per day. Now we average between 5 - 8 a day. She now uses a distinctive short 'cry' to alert us to her needs. I am amazed at how clearly and consistently she alerts us! At present there is enough time to undress her, remove my handy dandy homemade diaper & take her to the bathroom.

I figure, there is 'work' involved either way, washing diapers or taking her to the bathroom every hour or so. I truly feel connected to her and am thrilled to be able to meet her needs in this way.

Ava
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