Chelating mamas? - Page 37

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Toolip

Hi mamas!
I have an appointment to get my one and only amalgam out in 3 weeks, as per protocol. I've been eating a fairly WAP diet for the last year with guiltless indulgence in wonderful fats

I'm really overwhelmed with chelating. I start to read about it and my head starts to spin! Can anyone break down the very basic time-line for me of the things I should be doing now and after the filling is removed?

Thank you so much!

Missed this earlier, I can write out some basics in a couple days. Very basics--good multivit, Thorne Basic Nutrients and the mineral supp, biomins or citramins, seem like good choices. They have copper/iron-free versions which is what you'd want.

Sublingual B12, I like Perque's, it's hydroxycobalamin, maybe not on the day of the removal.

Vit C to bowel tolerance, again not on the day of the removal. I use Now brand sodium ascorbate--I'm fine with synthetic supps, I don't know food-based brands well, and I think the cost would be prohibitive for us.

More later.

Originally Posted by JaneS

Is it possible selenium can mobilize Hg and cause insomnia, anxiety and gut pain?

My Cutler book is still packed away in attic, so thanks for the quick advice!

I don't ever remember selenium as being listed as potentially causing issues, i thought it was one of the fairly benign supps. I will try to look it up later tonight though. I should be cooking for tomorrow's outing.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by JaneS

Is it possible selenium can mobilize Hg and cause insomnia, anxiety and gut pain?

My Cutler book is still packed away in attic, so thanks for the quick advice!

I'd guess this might have to do with mercury blocking thyroid receptors (shifting T3/T4??)? Not certain.

Selenium should bind the mercury, from my understanding. Could you increase vit C and maybe some clay?

Also, Epsom salts.

What are you doing with iodine also?


Pat

[Toolip]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

Sublingual B12, I like Perque's, it's hydroxycobalamin, maybe not on the day of the removal.

Is just B12 enough or should it be a multi B? I eat liver 3-4 x per week, would that be enough B vitamins?

Originally Posted by WuWei

Selenium should bind the mercury, from my understanding. Could you increase vit C and maybe some clay?


Pat

where do you get your clay?

[Toolip]

what is the name of the hair test to order from direct labs... it seems that there are 2...

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Toolip

where do you get your clay?

B12 from liver is great, if you have adequate stomach acid. Sublingual methyl-B12 is most easily absorbed. It is not in a multivitamin.

I haven't tried clay. But, the ladies here have mentioned it for sopping up metals before. Here is a thread with more information: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=clay


Pat

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Toolip

Is just B12 enough or should it be a multi B? I eat liver 3-4 x per week, would that be enough B vitamins?




where do you get your clay?

B12 can be depleted crazy fast in people with heavy metal issues. Normally, for most people, liver would be great and sufficient, but weird stresses IME make for unnatural nutrient depletion.

Sublingual to increase what you really absorb, stomach acid can be an issue, intrinsic factor can be an issue, I think.

A multivit heavy on Bs, in general, is a good idea, but B12 should still be taken separately.

Originally Posted by Toolip

what is the name of the hair test to order from direct labs... it seems that there are 2...

Let me find the page that describes exactly what to do....
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...lating&page=30

2nd post down on this page (for everyone else it's NOT the hair test with Toxic in the name, strangely enough).

[Toolip]

Originally Posted by JaneS

I'm pretty sure Moneca had a new and improved step by step on this thread, I think she rec starting with LiverLife.

I couldn't find this in my quick scan but it is a pretty huge thread


So, this is cutlers list of supplements that I'm slowly collecting but I need some clarification....

Antioxidant and supportive supplements should be taken at all times (before, during and after amalgam removal):

Buffered vitamin C 1/2 to 2 grams 4 times a day (3 pounds of sodium ascorbate powder is in the mail)

B complex equivalent to "b25" or "b50" 4 times a day (what does b25 and b50 mean? What's a good brand?)

Zinc 50-100 mg (what form of zinc? There are SO many! brand?)

Magnesium 500-1000 mg in divided doses (I think I can figure this one out)

Milk thistle extract 4 times a day (I have milk thistle seed powder... can I keep using that? how much?)

Vitamin E 1000-3000 IU daily (anything in particular? I know nothing about it...)

Mixed carotenes, lycopene, etc. (Is this in one supplement?)

flax and borage oil. (a good source? how much?)

Selenium 200 mcg as selenomethionine. (are my brazil nuts enough?)

Chromium picolinate 200 mcg with every meal. (I also know nothing about this...)

Molybdenum about 1000 mcg a day. (and nothing about this....)




Sorry, I know that's a lot... any info is greatly appreciated!!!


oh, and I also need sublingual B12, what are the important features to look for?

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Toolip

I couldn't find this in my quick scan but it is a pretty huge thread


So, this is cutlers list of supplements that I'm slowly collecting but I need some clarification....

Antioxidant and supportive supplements should be taken at all times (before, during and after amalgam removal):

Buffered vitamin C 1/2 to 2 grams 4 times a day (3 pounds of sodium ascorbate powder is in the mail)

I take to bowel tolerance, at the beginning it was, I think 44 grams per day, over time it went down. For me and the kids, it's a measure of circulating toxins--goes up when you take DMSA or ALA, should go down afterward. I take 3x/day.

B complex equivalent to "b25" or "b50" 4 times a day (what does b25 and b50 mean? What's a good brand?)

A B25 is a B-complex with 25mg of most of the things, usually 400mcg of folic acid. B50 is 50mg.

Zinc 50-100 mg (what form of zinc? There are SO many! brand?)

Citrate and picolinate are good. Take a look at Thorne's products, their Basic Nutrients and the mineral supps, Biomins and Citramins, they may be able to take care of several of these requirements at once, or at least minimize extra pills. DON'T take anything Thorne makes that says Detox, they throw ALA in everywhere like it's candy.

But in general, Thorne (sold lots of places online, I buy from nationaldiscountvitamins.com ) is good with no allergens, good with forms of vitamins and minerals, and they have REAL folate instead of folic acid.

Magnesium 500-1000 mg in divided doses (I think I can figure this one out)

Milk thistle extract 4 times a day (I have milk thistle seed powder... can I keep using that? how much?)

I'm grinding seed in the coffeebean grinder 3x/day, I'm taking 1 tablespoon each time and that seems to be on the high end that I've seen for recs for ground seed.

Vitamin E 1000-3000 IU daily (anything in particular? I know nothing about it...)

I've just used whatever's in my multi.... is that really 1,000 - 3,000? Not 100-300? Maybe I'm wrong, that just seems high, but maybe it's right.

Mixed carotenes, lycopene, etc. (Is this in one supplement?)

flax and borage oil. (a good source? how much?)
May want to consider fish oil instead, fewer conversions are required... flax is a precursor to the epa/dha in fish oil.

Selenium 200 mcg as selenomethionine. (are my brazil nuts enough?)
Probably, if you choose a multi, check how much is in there, you don't want to go crazy with selenium. Also, if your copper is really high, you may not want to do a lot of nuts, it's fine for me, copper's not an issue, but a minority of people have really high copper. A hair test should show that.

Chromium picolinate 200 mcg with every meal. (I also know nothing about this...)

Hopefully in a multi.

Molybdenum about 1000 mcg a day. (and nothing about this....)
You won't get this much in a multi, I haven't taken it but I think I understand now why it's recommended and it makes sense.



Sorry, I know that's a lot... any info is greatly appreciated!!!


oh, and I also need sublingual B12, what are the important features to look for?

For B12, I'd say a hydroxycobalamin is best tolerated, methylcobalamin is fine for a lot of people but not all, and cyanocobalamin isn't worth your time. I use Perque B12 guard, it's hydroxycobalamin, Jarrow methyl B12 is in a lot of HFS and when I needed something quick, it worked well. Most B12s in my HFS were cyanocobalamin.

Sorry for slow replies before, sad to say, a lot of us in this world are somewhat impaired. I am trying to work my way out of some mood issues and I have not been following up on things all that well. Here or IRL.

[tanyalynn]

A few other things to consider, as you are able. Read as you can, or bookmark and come back to it later. My brain fog a few years ago was significant, it was hard to think.

1. Gluten and dairy free.
Fun? Not so much, but for me, I think they were doing a couple things to mess me up. I think the opioid theory of gluten and casein (gluteomorphins and caseomorphins) applied to me, I had a weird jitteriness the first day GFCF. Also, I think they leak out of my gut and add to the work of my liver--I think they act like toxins, in that my liver needs to excrete them, and uses up detox bandwidth doing that instead of metals and crap. Looks like it works that way for my son too. This made me actually feel better.

2. I've talked about vitamin C flushes a few times in this thread, they've been really helpful for me (and I haven't done one in a while... should probably get back into the habit). It helped, I think, after I got my amalgams out (maybe the same day I got the dental work done, maybe the next day? soon afterward), and I did them after each round of ALA and DMSA, and they really helped. Skipped one after a round of ALA, got nasty mood issues.

http://www.perque.com/pdfs/Pt_Ascorbate_Slush_FIN.pdf

It was recommended to me to do them 24-36 hrs after I stopped a round of DMSA or ALA.

3. Have you read about high sulfur and low sulfur diets?

http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelation...hur-food-list/

This page discusses it well, I'm high sulfur and that's easier, but for low sulfur people, it's a nice improvement since common foods like onions and eggs are pretty high sulfur.

4. Folate / folic acid

You may want to read a page or two on MTHFR gene variants, some people need more folate, and real folate instead of folic acid, and more of it than most people. It's not shockingly rare. This is one reason I like Thorne, their supps have real folate.
http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/folate.php
http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/mthfr.php

This last one can help make sense of family history/family susceptibility types of issues. Everyone dealing with metals issues needs more folate, this is simply a matter of degree, and figuring out whether folic acid is a workable, good supp for you, or whether you should just stick with folate.

[Toolip]

wow, thank you so much!

So fermented CLO would be acceptable instead of the flax oil?

[Tkgrl88]

Hi all..!!! New here although I have been reading this off & on for a while now..!

I am 23, and have 4 fillings, and have only had them for about 3 years. I have baby fever really badly and I honestly don't see myself being able to wait the year or 2 it would take to get my amalgams removed and then chelate. Every other aspect of my life is stable. Husband and I have been together 9 years, have a great marriage, own our own home (in Los Angeles..!) and I have a great career. Hubby and I have wanted kids since I was 18 and we have waited and waited and pushed the desire down until we got things in order. Now especially after just moving into our new house and of course it seems that everyone around me is either getting pregnant or pregnant or just had a baby. Now it's gotten to the point where EVERYONE asks me all the time when the little ones are coming - coworkers, family, friends, even my mom which was a shock to me because she wasn't the happiest person in the world about me getting married so young (she didn't want the same path for me that she took). Her blessing was just the icing on top of the cake. Everything is ready emotionally, financially, etc. just these darn amalgams..!! I NEVER have had any regrets in my life until this one - until now. If I could just go back and never have gotten those stupid fillings I could be pregnant right now, eating WAP, and refusing any vaccinations.

Since I am not mercury toxic as far as I know (or at least don't have any major health issues) you might be asking yourself well how did I come to find out about this and why does it bother me so badly..? The answer to this is that my brother is autistic and I also have a few cousins we think have Aspergers and another cousin that is bipolar as well as his mom (my aunt). All on my mom's side. Then my dad has some mysterious ALS-type disease that runs in his family and is more slow-moving than actual ALS. I believe it could be related to mercury or at least some kind of heavy metals.

I know some of you might be thinking why not just get them out and wait the 18 months/chelate etc. Well the thing is that I don't even know if I am mercury toxic, I don't even have any symptoms other than some mild general tiredness, mental fogginess and things that run in my family such as being a perfectionist, mild anxiety & stress, possibly having ADHD, distracted easily, etc. Most of these things were around long before the amalgams although they have gotten worse since but of course life circumstances have changed greatly (long immigration process for my husband, buying a home, dealing with everyday stresses of finances & work and my husband working weird hours). I do have a tendency to be paranoid and sorta hyper-focus on things and be a little bit OCD. I am only 23 but have accomplished ALOT and most of my life has been projects. First my wedding, then my husband's immigration process, then buying a house. I was so looking forward to having a baby because it was going to be a FUN time of my life - maybe a project but a fun and relaxing and EASY one. Then I started to learn about the amalgams and since then have been extremely discouraged and feel like it's some sort of death sentence almost. But I don't want to make the next year or so of my life about chelation, detox, etc. if they don't HAVE to be, dykwim..? I don't want to suck all of the joy out of starting a family when so many people just spontaneously get pregnant even with fillings and their children are fine and fully healthy. What if I worry and worry and detox and chelate and stress myself out and in the end it was all unnecessary + the stress harms my baby..? When I focus on something I have to put all of my energy into it and then it takes over and consumes my life. But then again what if I don't do anything and it was necessary..? What if I chose to listen to the other experts besides Cutler who say that conceiving a few months after amalgam removal is OK and my child is harmed..? What if I chose to listen to Cutler and waste 2 or so years of my life when I didn't have to..? What if I leave them in altogether and my child is ASD and it affects me as well later on down the road..?

Previously I was leaning towards getting them out and then TTC a month or so later but after finally getting my finances sorted out so that I have the funds for the removal, I have been online for 5-6 hours straight reading up again after a month or so hiatus from thinking about this crap.. and I have come to realize that the general consensus out there on this idea is that it is way too risky and dangerous.

So now I am leaning towards just leaving them in - eating WAP, refusing vaccinations, having a natural birth (which I wanted anyway), eliminating other toxins such as household cleaners, taking vitamins & supplements and then possibly having them removed and chelating after our first baby when we have more time. I am hoping that since I am so young, have so few fillings, and have had them in for such a short time + my husband's genes (and he is hispanic which I have read have a lower rate of autism) + the fact that maybe I am worrying about nothing in the first place since I don't have any obvious or extreme affects from my fillings = a healthy baby..??

[linguistmama]

It's a tough and very personal decision!

I have mercury and just started chelating. I've never had fillings, but I believe my exposure is from my mother's fillings and childhood vaxes. In our case we are chelating before ttc'ing because of our daughter's issues. Both have multiple allergies and the oldest was diagnosed with Asperger's (which is now only social anxiety by removing her allergens). A big part of the decision for us was intuition. I had a very strong feeling to get the hair test mentioned upthread even though I kept telling myself that I didn't need it because I've never had fillings. at myself.

The genes a child has play a big part too and I can't choose them My dh is Hispanic too. My oldest is more like him in appearance and personality/Asperger's. The youngest is more like me and does not have any spectrum issues. Both DH and I have issues in our families that are most likely related to MTHFR; bi-polar, alcoholism, depression and Asperger's. I believe that we don't naturally detox as well as others without this gene issue. Anyway, that's how we made our decision. It was easier since I don't have amalgams that I need time and money to remove. I'm feeling better about it now, but it was devastating to realize we would have to put off ttc

[linguistmama]

I'm on my second round of 25mg DMSA and 25 mg ALA and I'm feeling good. Is that normal? I've been really hungry and thirsty, but no headaches or feeling awful. I suppose maybe some feel fine and just don't need to post since they don't need help? Maybe it's better since I didn't have amalgams and we've been making big diet and supplement changes for over a year?

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Tkgrl88

So now I am leaning towards just leaving them in - eating WAP, refusing vaccinations, having a natural birth (which I wanted anyway), eliminating other toxins such as household cleaners, taking vitamins & supplements and then possibly having them removed and chelating after our first baby when we have more time. I am hoping that since I am so young, have so few fillings, and have had them in for such a short time + my husband's genes (and he is hispanic which I have read have a lower rate of autism) + the fact that maybe I am worrying about nothing in the first place since I don't have any obvious or extreme affects from my fillings = a healthy baby..??

How long have you been eating WAP? How much food folate do you consume a day? Magnesium, Vit C, selenium, B6, methyl-B12, zinc, molybdentum, sulfate, fermented vegetables, whole food probiotics, pastured poultry, 100% grass-fed beef, HVBO, fCLO, soaked grains, etc.?

If you've been doing all of that for at least a couple of years. I'd say you've probably chelated a lot of the mercury already. With your family history, I'd worry, however about impaired detoxification genes, specifically the MTHFR gene. It is easy enough to have that tested to see where you stand. Also, there are hair tests for heavy metals. Let me find the thread about testing for mineral status preconception. Preconception care: Mineral Deficiency Test

This is another informative thread about avoiding the foods prenatally which are the most common allergens and inflammatory. Preventing or reducing allergies/intolerances prenatally with mom's health and diet?

This Traditional Foods thread: eating for fertility - suggestions or resources

This one in the dental forum: To Remove or Not to Remove Amalgams
A bunch more threads about amalgam removal decision making:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...24&postcount=6

I'll just say, I had a pristine diet and an ideal pregnancy. Took plenty of vitamins, but had all my childhood antibiotics, steroids, antihistamines, vaccinations--- in addition to my mom's full toxin dump in utero. And dumped a $hit load of toxins to our son who is on the spectrum. We have all the family history you have, and then some.

I have 10 amalgams, all placed in childhood. The MTFHR gene is an MTHFR.

I'd get that tested and go from there.


Pat

[Toolip]

I know this is a really, really basic chelation question but I am still not totally clear.

So "chelation agents" are pulling mercury out of tissues? Correct? Do they have anything to do with helping them get excreted?
What do you do to make sure they get excreted and not redistributed in the body? Is that what the extra supplements are for? I imagine that "detox pathyways" are important but, honestly, I am still confused about exactly what they are.



Can i wait until after I have my amalgam out to test for mercury then test and decide weather or not to chelate? Is it best to test first?
I don't necessarily feel mercury toxic but I do have a few things that concern me. However, I want to be able to go back to eating cilantro and drinking kombucha without worrying that I'm dumping a bunch of mercury. This is so overwhelming!

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by linguistmama

I'm on my second round of 25mg DMSA and 25 mg ALA and I'm feeling good. Is that normal? I've been really hungry and thirsty, but no headaches or feeling awful. I suppose maybe some feel fine and just don't need to post since they don't need help? Maybe it's better since I didn't have amalgams and we've been making big diet and supplement changes for over a year?

I only felt bad a few times. Got headache/body ache after my first dose of DMSA in my very early rounds, I think because it was right after I got my amalgams out--I was diarrhea-y for a month after my last amalgams came out, I think my body was dumping a bunch of metals.

I had a couple bad rounds either when my new dosage of ALA was too high, or I think a couple times I was coming down with an illness--if a round just seems really weird and different than normal, it's prudent to just stop and wait a week.

At this point, I actually feel better taking ALA than not. The general advice is to stick with a dosage for 6 rounds, because if the dosage is a bit too high, you can end up with extra mobilized after each round and that has a cumulative effect--so if you do 6 rounds and things seem manageable, then it's good and you may have room to up your dosage. I think my vitamin C flushes helped avoid that build-up of mobilized metals. Good use of supplements will help avoid it too.

I think taking care of yourself, good food, good supps, helps a lot. And you don't have the ups/downs of post-amalgam-removal to deal with, and that can be a hard time.

And yeah, lists everywhere are full of people asking for help dealing with problems, so the population isn't a representative sampling of everyone.

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by Toolip

I know this is a really, really basic chelation question but I am still not totally clear.

So "chelation agents" are pulling mercury out of tissues? Correct? Do they have anything to do with helping them get excreted?
What do you do to make sure they get excreted and not redistributed in the body? Is that what the extra supplements are for? I imagine that "detox pathyways" are important but, honestly, I am still confused about exactly what they are.



Can i wait until after I have my amalgam out to test for mercury then test and decide weather or not to chelate? Is it best to test first?
I don't necessarily feel mercury toxic but I do have a few things that concern me. However, I want to be able to go back to eating cilantro and drinking kombucha without worrying that I'm dumping a bunch of mercury. This is so overwhelming!

That's not as basic as you think. It's fundamental, but IMO it's under-appreciated in many circles.

ALA and DMSA and the like will chemically grab onto various metals. They can take them all the way out of your body, but it's just a chemical bond. Chemical bonds are formed and broken a lot, it's a normal thing to happen. But, when it's ALA grabbing onto mercury or arsenic, for example, that means you end up with a molecule of Hg or As floating in your bloodstream--a molecule that was sitting somewhere in a tissue, and while it wasn't good there, moving around it can cause a lot more problems.

The reason for Cutler dosing is that you want fairly steady amounts of chelator in your bloodstream, so that some of that dropped Hg or As or whatever will bond with available chelator, and actually get all the way out.

Not all the mobilized metals will get out attached to a chelator, that's where the big list of supplements comes in. Folate, B12, methionine (usually dietary), sometimes TMG/DMG, those help your methylation. Our bodies can attach a methyl group to most metals and then use the methyl group like a handle to get all the way out. Zinc/selenium for glutathione is basically the same. So those nutrients are for helping with the leftovers, and we minimize the leftovers by careful dosing.

Vitamin C helps too--my kids and I need a lot more while chelating than we do on most days, and then it takes a couple days to decrease after we stop.

When to test--not sure it matters a lot. I think you'd get similar results before or after amalgam removal.

Detox pathways--you can think of them like buckets. Chemicals that our bodies want to get rid of--metals, environmental chemicals, even chemicals that our bodies make like estrogen that increase and decrease with our cycles--need to be dumped out. Each has a different shape and fits into at least one bucket, but often they fit into 2 or 3 buckets (detox pathways). Our bodies use nutrients to manufacture buckets, and then scoop up junk and dump them. Most of the time, the buckets go out with the trash--there are some that can recycle, but that's not very important for our purposes.

Does that analogy help a bit? It sounds complicated at first, til you understand it, then you realize it wasn't that hard to begin with.

The nutrients we need a lot of --folate, B12, mag, zinc, molybdenum--those are big players in bucket-making, and it's why people with health problems due to metals have problems that fall into common patterns. If you're low on zinc and mag and some B vitamins, you'll often have anxiety/depression type stuff.

Here's a site that gives a (rather technical) discussion of detox pathways, but if you just search for glutathione conjugation and methylation, you'll start to get the overall idea.

oh wait, i'm on the wrong computer! mine has a bum power cord and no power. it's www.tuberose.com / is it liver detoxification? search the tuberose site and you'll eventually stumble on it.

[lil_miss_understood]

http://www.tuberose.com/Liver_Detoxification.html

[Toolip]

Wow, thank you so much! I'm heading class right now and maybe your link will help me but I'm still confused about detox pathways. I have heard/read several metaphors and analogies but I want to know what they actually are. There are 6 of them, right? They're so illusive

[Tkgrl88]

I haven't been following any specific diet plan yet.. it's all super confusing and overwhelming to me... and it all tends to contradict itself..

I plan on going to the health food store tonight to pick some things up and get started... what should I look for..? Should I get raw milk or organic milk..? What kinds of supplements & vitamins should I be getting if I leave my amalgams in..? Are they different ones than if I am taking them out..? I read all of those links but that just led to me having about 10 different windows open and googling everything and getting super confused... =*(