any anti-circ OB nurses here?

[HippieMamaBE]

I'm struggling...I graduate with my RN in June, and the only reason I ever went to nursing school was to become an OB nurse. Our hospital has probably a 90% circ rate, if not higher. I desperately want to do OB, but I don't think I can anymore. There is just no way that I can justifiy circing all those poor innocent little boys, esp when my own is intact. The bad part is that I'll be the one to have to strap them down and care for them after the circ. I just dont think I can do it. I've already talked with staff and know for a fact they won't make any special accommadations for me, so its not an option.
So, if you're an OB nurse, how do you deal with circs? I hate to throw away my dream, but if it means not having to watch those poor little ones go through it, I will. I wonder if you ever get hardened to it and it just doesn't bother you anymore? I managed to not have to watch any in nursing school, my instructors all knew my stand on circ, but I just dont think I can do it everyday...does anyone have any suggestions? THanks!

[mamanurse]

During my rotation in nursing school, I witnessed a number of procedures and interventions that I didn't necessarily agree with. Before each procedure/intervention, I made sure that each pt. was making an informed decision. I tried to present both the benefits and drawbacks in an informative unbiased manner. As nurses, it is part of our job to educate patients so that they can make informed decisions. It is also our job to support them in their decisions even if we don't necessarily agree with them. When my pts. came in saying they decided on an elective induction/C-section, I had a difficult time understanding where they were coming from. It was difficult for me to accept that not everybody makes the same decisions as I do regarding childbirth and parenting and it's something I still struggle with from time to time. I don't know if this reply helps you at all, but I was hoping it might.

[Microsoap]

Just say "NO!"!!!

I think you have every right to refuse having to assist in circumcisions. Strapping down the baby? It just doesn't feel right to me if you're an intactivist to aide and abed such a (human rights violation) 'crime'. I mean, I'm a non-smoker and ethically, I couldn't do a job where it was my job to sell tobacco products since it goes against what I believe in. Do you know what I mean? Ah, I don't know.... *sigh* Isn't there some kind of nurses union to support you if you were god forbid fired for refusing to do such a harmful act even if it's prep work? I'm sincerely NOT attacking you if you or others ulitmately do such a thing, I just know (((I))) couldn't do it myself. Now caring for a circumcision after would be a KIND OF different story if I gave or made sure the doctor gave the parents the _right_ kind of information and they ultimately decided to cut the poor boy.

[Fi.]

Talk to Nurses for the Rights of a Child, they may be able to help you out.

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by Fi.

Talk to Nurses for the Rights of a Child, they may be able to help you out.

http://nurses.cirp.org/

[Quirky]

I think you should go with your heart. Circumcision is harmful. There is no medically indicated reason for routine infant circ - the AAP calls the procedure "non-therapeutic." I believe doctors and nurses who participate in circ on the grounds that "well, it's a parent's choice" are violating their oaths and their ethical obligations in the most fundamental way possible by inflicting harm on another human being for no medical reason - because SOMEONE ELSE has an opinion on how that baby's penis should look cosmetically.

I am watching a PBS special on Auschwitz right now. Circumcision is not in the same league as genocide, but it is an absolute harm and an absolute human rights violation. Babies of both genders have an absolute human right to have their genitals left intact in the absence of a compelling medical reason. Participating in circumcision "because we're just doing what the parents want" is not any better than participating in genocide "because my superior officer ordered me to do it." If the Nuremberg Trials established anything, it was that participating in an evil act at the order of others is not acceptable.

I am sorry that the doctors, nurses, and hospitals in this country don't have the guts to stand up and say NO MORE to genital mutilation. I am very glad that you have the courage to consider taking the ethically and morally correct stand on this front even if it means going into a different field. Unless more medical professionals like you have the courage to follow their conscience, this abomination will continue, and baby boys will pay the price.

If you can't refuse to participate in circumcisions, then yes, I would walk away from OB (or find a birth center to practice at, or go get your CNM and become a midwife ).

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by mamanurse

During my rotation in nursing school, I witnessed a number of procedures and interventions that I didn't necessarily agree with. Before each procedure/intervention, I made sure that each pt. was making an informed decision. I tried to present both the benefits and drawbacks in an informative unbiased manner. As nurses, it is part of our job to educate patients so that they can make informed decisions. It is also our job to support them in their decisions even if we don't necessarily agree with them. When my pts. came in saying they decided on an elective induction/C-section, I had a difficult time understanding where they were coming from. It was difficult for me to accept that not everybody makes the same decisions as I do regarding childbirth and parenting and it's something I still struggle with from time to time. I don't know if this reply helps you at all, but I was hoping it might.

Babies are not capable of making an informed decision as to whether they want their penises cut for cosmetic reasons. Parents should not have the legal right to have cosmetic surgery done on their babies at birth. I realize that they do - but when the rubber hits the road, it is doctors and nurses who violate their professional obligations to the PATIENT - i.e. the baby - when they perform this unnecessary, cosmetic surgery on him for the benefit of HIS PARENTS' wishes.

[baybee]

I belong to an email group called [e-mail]
and I send pro foreskin info all the time. They love it and get
right into how much they hate the whole thing. You will find that
your fellow nurses are very receptive to activism and you could
make a big difference in ending circ in that institution.

Even tho you think you are intimidated by the docs, THEY are
very intimidated by what the nurses think of them. Many, many
parents have decided to keep their son intact because of a nurse
telling them the truth. If you go to the circumcisionquotes site (does
someone have the url?),
they have tons of nurses quotes on there.

You could also contact the wonderful folks at D. O. C. and ask for
their coaching on what to do and how to do it? Just getting a
really honest informed consent document would have a big impact.

Baybee

[mamanurse]

: While I don't work as an OB nurse, the hospital I am affiliated with has a low (not low enough IMO) circ rate. What the pp said about nurses having stong activism influence is absolutely correct. Many nurses on the OB floor spend time educating parents on the merits of foreskin and keeping their sons intact.

As for children not being able to make informed decisions, this is always true. Parents make all medical decisions for their children up to a certain age that varies from state to state. The AAP not only believes that circ is medically unecessary, but they also recommend vaccinations for all children. Does this mean we should blindly vaccinate our children based on their recommendations? Many parents decide not to vaccinate/delay vax/selectively vax their children against doctors' advice (and rightly so). Their children are not able to make an informed decision concerning this issue. Does this mean they are being negligent? I think most parents want what's best for their children and we should respect their choices regardless of our own personal beliefs.

[Kathryn]

I seriously doubt you're going to find many people on the case against circumcision board that will agree with the "parent's choice" line. We care about the babies and their right to being saved from genital mutilation, not about the parents and what they "think" is right.

[mamanurse]

Not looking for agreement. I'm just trying to offer support to a fellow nurse struggling with a tough decision. I could care less if people on this board agree with me. If this board is only for people who all agree with each other, than why even discuss the case against circumsion?

[Microsoap]

Originally Posted by mamanurse

Not looking for agreement. I'm just trying to offer support to a fellow nurse struggling with a tough decision. I could care less if people on this board agree with me. If this board is only for people who all agree with each other, than why even discuss the case against circumsion?

Because it can create a physical act of intactivism by saying-- here's a nurse who wants to be just that but doesn't want to prep a patient for something that's been proven damaging and that she's against. By saying "Don't do it!", perhaps she'll make a stand and refuse and cause talk and hopefully action. If she just conforms even though it's against her beliefs; it's the same as one of those mothers out there (for example) who believes circumcision is wrong for her son and gets pressured into doing it by the cut daddy. Yeah, you FEEL this way, but your feelings are not getting past your thought process into physical action (stopping the circ).

[paminmi]

Originally Posted by HippieMamaBE

I'm struggling...I graduate with my RN in June, and the only reason I ever went to nursing school was to become an OB nurse. Our hospital has probably a 90% circ rate, if not higher. I desperately want to do OB, but I don't think I can anymore. There is just no way that I can justifiy circing all those poor innocent little boys, esp when my own is intact. The bad part is that I'll be the one to have to strap them down and care for them after the circ. I just dont think I can do it. I've already talked with staff and know for a fact they won't make any special accommadations for me, so its not an option.
So, if you're an OB nurse, how do you deal with circs? I hate to throw away my dream, but if it means not having to watch those poor little ones go through it, I will. I wonder if you ever get hardened to it and it just doesn't bother you anymore? I managed to not have to watch any in nursing school, my instructors all knew my stand on circ, but I just dont think I can do it everyday...does anyone have any suggestions? THanks!

I can see this is quite a dilemma for you Jess. One I personally grappled with myself. I would have loved so much to work in OB. Unfortunately, my local hospital (the only one unless I want to drive an hour or more) is exactly as you describe yours to be. I considered attempting work there, hoping to be L & D and avoiding the nursery, finally realizing there would be just as much conflict there. I can't stand the idea of strapping moms to fetal monitors, IV's across the board, no food or drink, and the worst of all...the sexual assault that is perpetuated on countless women every day by doctors: episiotomy. I could no more easily stand by and watch or assist with that any more than I could the circumcision of newborn boys.

I solved the dilemma by getting over my desire for OB and replacing it with home health.

Big difference, I know, but nonetheless very rewarding. I will wholeheartedly endorse the home health field to anyone interested in working in a varied environment, likes to travel and appreciates flexibility. I have found home health to be all that and more. You actually develop personal relationships with your clients, working in a small sense as a social worker as well. Knowing that you have been there for someone recovering from an acute illness or dealing with ongoing, progressive, chronic or terminal disease can really give a sense of satisfaction and self esteem.

Sorry to be so negative regarding OB, I'm just trying to be honest in how I dealt with the issue.

Best of luck to you,
Pam

[baybee]

The turnover of staff in ob is very high. Hospitals could probably, in the end, save a lot of money by keeping the nurses happy on certain issues like respecting their individual rights to refuse to participate in unethical procedures.
Baybee

[eightyferrettoes]

You know, it's my understanding that there are a lot of nurses who refuse on ethical or religious grounds to help with pregnancy terminations, even in cases of severe fetal malformations.

I don't see why this should necessarily be any different, aside from the fact that abortion is a well-known hot-button issue, and circumcision is viewed as being utterly routine.

Is there someone you can make your case to? Claim it violates your ethical code-- it does-- or claim a religious exemption? Worst they can say is "hellfreakinno" and then you'll know you may seriously need to reconsider your plans.

Either way, it's good to have an intactivist nurse on an OB floor... you might be the one voice of reason that parents hear on the issue, and folks take advice from a nurse pretty seriously, IME.

I just personally do not think I could stand to assist with circumcisions... it's so much different than all the other stupid routine crap hospitals do to laboring women-- it's irreversible.

[boingo82]

So much evil has been done by people who were "just following orders" or "just doing their job". Don't compromise your ethics. You don't have to participate.

[wendy1221]

I'm planning on going to nursing school in the next few years. I'm taking a few prerequisites to the accelerated BSN program starting this summer (I have a B.S. in chemistry, so I already have most of them.) When I'll actually get my BSN depends on how long dh is going to take to finish his PhD and where I go to school. LOL!

Anyway, I want to be a pediatric or neonatal nurse practitioner. Sometimes I wonder if I can handle it, but I think just helping babies will make it worth the stress and heartache. At least long enough to pay off my school loans and save a bit for my kids' educations. I plan on refusing to assist in circumcisions while in school and after I have my degree. I am ethically opposed and I don't see how they can force me to do it. If they do, well, I guess I'll have yet another change in career plans!

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by mamanurse

: While I don't work as an OB nurse, the hospital I am affiliated with has a low (not low enough IMO) circ rate. What the pp said about nurses having stong activism influence is absolutely correct. Many nurses on the OB floor spend time educating parents on the merits of foreskin and keeping their sons intact.

As for children not being able to make informed decisions, this is always true. Parents make all medical decisions for their children up to a certain age that varies from state to state. The AAP not only believes that circ is medically unecessary, but they also recommend vaccinations for all children. Does this mean we should blindly vaccinate our children based on their recommendations? Many parents decide not to vaccinate/delay vax/selectively vax their children against doctors' advice (and rightly so). Their children are not able to make an informed decision concerning this issue. Does this mean they are being negligent? I think most parents want what's best for their children and we should respect their choices regardless of our own personal beliefs.

Then I guess we should repeal the 1996 law against female genital mutilation, and respect the rights of parents to circumcise their daughters. After all, parents from girl-circing cultures only want what's best for their daughters.

/sarcasm

The problem with the "parents want what's best for their children" line is that circ is cosmetic surgery. What other cosmetic surgery can you think of that a doctor would do on a baby for no medical reason, just because the parent asked, without going through a serious education process? The responsibility for ending circ lies with the doctors, nurses, and hospitals that make money off this procedure and continue to promote it or implicitly endorse it. It's not OK to fob that responsibility off on parents - it's the medical profession's job to say no to violating their professional, ethical obligations.

[orangebird]

Right here mama. And I do NICU too. Actually the NICU is my primary job and the L&D stuff secondary but I am super anti circ. We deal with the circ issue over on the postpartum floor- we're still outdated like that, seperate floors for L&D and PP. Anyway. I was working in the PP nursery last week. Ugh. I do not support circ at all and always try to tell parents it is optional, not necessary. I like to point out how many people don't do it now, how insurance doesn't cover it (when applicable), that it isn't recommended by any medical organization. I have no problems because of my refusal to participate. As a nurse it is totally within my scope of practice to share facts with the patients. I am supposed to be a patient advocate and the babies are my patients too.

If you are drawn to OB, don't let this issue stop you, you can be a great advocate for the babies, OB needs more nurses on our side!

I took care of the most adorable fat 11 pound black baby in the nursery last week (he had to stay there for some respiritory (sp? no coffee yet LOL) issues), OMG he was like a little doll, you've never seen anything so cute. I went to change his diaper and saw that raw circed penis staring back at me and I almost cried. He was so beautiful I couldn't believe his parents did that to him. At every diaper change I said to him "I'm so sorry little baby, why did they do that to you? I'm so sorry!" UGH! Then I found out his parents are recent immigrants from some country in northern africa. They don't even speak english. They have made some american friends here and they were the ones translating for them. It turns out these new "friends" even gave the family the money to have the circ done. Now I'm really wondering (but didn't ask) if the parents really wanted it in the first place or if these new american friends talked them into it, like this is what we do in the US... I am so sad for that baby. I hardly see circed babies. In the NICU we don't do them or see tham and when I'm at a birth they are still intact. It isn't until they are a couple days old on the postpartum floor that the circs are done so I hardly take care of the circed boys.

I refuse to help with them. I have been asked when floating over to PP but I say absolutely no way. I won't even help the residents gather supplies for the procedure. Just because you are a nurse in OB doesn't mean you have to do circs. Yuck. No way.

[orangebird]

I've already talked with staff and know for a fact they won't make any special accommadations for me, so its not an option.

I'm having such a hard time believing this! Is there another hospital? I have never had a problem. I just go find another nurse and ask her (not him, the only male OB nurse on that floor is anti circ too ) to help with my circ and then I do whatever she needs me to do to cover for her patients. I've never had a problem. Not once. There is always someone willing to help me out, especially if that nurse has to do something she is really not thrilled about doing like teaching peri care or something mundane. I say try it out before you throw your whole dream away. They don't make "special accommadations" for me when I go over there, but I find a way to make it work. You can too!