confict between my values & "fun" activity

[bri276]

namely, the Zoo.

maybe some zoos, and definitely some wildlife/endangered species preserves, are clean, think about the best interests of the animals, etc, but the ones near us make me feel really sad and angry- the pens are too small, the poor polar bears are frying in the 90* heat, they look so sad and defeated and I just have a really big problem giving them our money, I have refused to go to zoos/circuses or any other commercial industry that features animals being treated unfairly, including pet stores.

problem is, I know dd would LOOOOVE to go see animals somewhere. she adores our two cats, laughs at them, stares at them, "talks" to them. Are there some places I'm not thinking of that would be more within my comfort zone and still let her get a similar experience?

what about in the future when her friends want to take her with them to these places? do I say no? I don't want to be overbearing. I just really love animals and can't support the cruelty & neglect. am I wrong?

[sunnysideup]

problem is, I know dd would LOOOOVE to go see animals somewhere. she adores our two cats, laughs at them, stares at them, "talks" to them. Are there some places I'm not thinking of that would be more within my comfort zone and still let her get a similar experience?

We have a park not too far from us that is a working farm. The animals have lots of room to roam and it's very clean. My kids have enjoyed seeing this farm and have learned some about farming from the experience. It's fun to visit in the spring and see all of the baby animals.

what about in the future when her friends want to take her with them to these places? do I say no? I don't want to be overbearing. I just really love animals and can't support the cruelty & neglect. am I wrong?

I would talk to my child about what it is I don't like about zoos, but let them go if they want to.

[Satori]

ikwym, our local MDC playgroup seems to like going there and I haven't had the guts to mention how much I dislike that zoo because of the small cages and stuff. I never would have thought MDC mama's would support cruelty to animals

[EVC]

Take her and make it a learning experience. Show her the poor caged tigers and explain that they are so large and active in the wild that they need space to run. Tell them they like to hunt for their food, not have it thrown at them by a zookeeper. Nothing so graphic as to upset her--but show how people should be compassinate towards animals, not lock them up in tiny cages. Show her how beautiful and amazing the animals are and teach her that they deserve more dignity and respect than many people give them.

[hipem]

We are lucky to have a good (and improving) zoo in town and also the Nat'l Aquarium. While I still don't like to see animals where I know they don't belong...it is the only way we can see certain creatures irl and I enjoyed going while growing up and my kids really enjoy it. And we do talk about it being unnatural.

[srain]

I wouldn't go and make it a learning experience for a young child, just as I wouldn't go to a prison or asylum for the "learning experience." Truthfully, I think even the "good" zoos pretty much suck. I'd stick with domesticated animals for now (riding stables?) and when/ if zoos come up in the future, discuss your reasoning then.

[Dar]

I wouldn't go. We went to the Phoenix Zoo a lot when rain was little, and it was great... and then we were up in Humbolt county once and went to this really awful little zoo in (I think) Arcata, and it was so traumatic for Rain... she would cry at night and want to go sneak in and free the poor chimp there.

Wait until you visit somewhere with a good zoo and go there...

dar

[lilyka]

check around. our zoo does mostly animal rehabilitation with the intent of re-releasing them to the wild and breeding of endangered and near endangered species. Most of the animals in the petting zoos are cast offs from farms that have been rescued and small domestic animals. alot of the healthy birds and such a free to come and go. mostof the large game run free on an acerage. There are two seperate huge areas. one for plains animals and one for african plains animals.

I think it is better than most zoos.

also check out model farms and such.

[onlyzombiecat]

If an invitation comes your dd's way I would tell your dd that you love animals and your feelings about your nearby zoos, circuses or pet stores. If she was younger I would say no and offer to take the kids somewhere you like better another day. If she is older I would probably let her decide for herself.
I don't think you need to compromise your values to see animals or your dd to have a good time.

[rebeccalizzie]

IMO...there are plenty of fun, animal-centered activities that aren't the zoo. Working farms are a good idea, or looking for a good zoo (if you aren't against all zoos). I don't do stuff with my DD that compromises my values, because that's not the message I want to send. She seems reasonably well adjusted so far, and I don't think skipping some things "all kids should do" has traumatized her.

Just my opinion...

[Brigianna]

We don't do zoos either. I've explained that the animals are sad to be locked up in cages away from their families. Wildlife preserves are better. Of course some people don't like them because the animals hide from view. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that since most non-domesticated animals don't really like being around people, any place where they're on display and not allowed to hide from view is probably going to involve mistreatment.

More broadly, I think values are more important than fun, and I think most kids will understand that if it's explained to them well.

[bri276]

thanks for the responses! nice to be able to post such an unpopular viewpoint and be offered creative solutions and understanding replies- can you IMAGINE the response had I posted this question on a mainstream board?! lol the farm is a great idea, I need to look into farms around here, but I know we definitely have lots of horses in the area.

my other question is how to respond to family members who want to take dd to the zoo? It's *already* come up. with my mom or someone really close I don't mind saying "we just don't do the zoo in our family, we don't believe in it"- my mom agrees with me. but with other people I know they're going to look at me like I'm *insane*. the zoo is actually in my town, it's huge, everyone does it in the summer. it's almost like I'd be insulting people for going if I explain why we don't, yk?

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I certainly don't think YOU need to go to the zoo if it upsets you. I guess I'm pretty spoiled living in San Diego where the zoo and the Wild Animal Park are pretty great places, though not perfect. And we do talk about how some of the animals need more space and how they would be happier in the wild except taht there isn't the right kind of "wild" left for them anymore.

However, I'm not so sure about not letting others take your child on such an outing. For me that would depend on the exact circumstances and whether the relationship between child and outing sponsor was more important than your dislike of zoos.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by bri276

thanks for the responses! nice to be able to post such an unpopular viewpoint and be offered creative solutions and understanding replies- can you IMAGINE the response had I posted this question on a mainstream board?! lol the farm is a great idea, I need to look into farms around here, but I know we definitely have lots of horses in the area.

my other question is how to respond to family members who want to take dd to the zoo? It's *already* come up. with my mom or someone really close I don't mind saying "we just don't do the zoo in our family, we don't believe in it"- my mom agrees with me. but with other people I know they're going to look at me like I'm *insane*. the zoo is actually in my town, it's huge, everyone does it in the summer. it's almost like I'd be insulting people for going if I explain why we don't, yk?

If you're already living a sort of non-mainstream lifestyle maybe people are accustomed to your "strange" ideas. Whenever I share an unpopular opinion people tend to roll their eyes and say things like "well of course *you* think that." Which is annoying but there are advantages.

Somehow the zoo came up when I was talking to my brother-in-law and his friend, who asked me why I didn't like zoos, and bil interrupted and said "it's because she's a bleeding-heart liberal who hates cages and feels sorry for animals."

Now, if you're still a respected member of your community, I can't help you.

[TigerTail]

i don't know. i wouldn't do sea world, i know it is traumatic for sea creatures, but i support our local zoo in their breeding & rehabilitive & educational efforts, & i'd rather work towards making it better than diss the idea in entirety. if the zoo is too abysmal to visit while campaigning to make it better, can you travel a bit to a better one? we check out new zoos within driving range whenever we go on drives- we have had some amazing experiences checking out the neighboring zoos.

underfunding is usually what keeps zoos from giving animals more space- not some inherent desire to torment creatures. zoo folks (like vets) are not in it for the money. zoos have volunteer programs for children- making your pisspoor zoo a better place might be something that appeals to your kid.

(i've seen the hot polar bears, poor things. ice costs money, harass your local banks, philanthropists, service orgs etc to keep your bears cool!)

ps if anyone is a peta activist etc who does not support keeping any animals captive, of course i am not suggesting you defy your ethics & work at the zoo. we may disagree on the methods, but animal welfare is of concern to both of us & god bless you for caring.

[amymarie]

well i felt the exact same way when my dd was younger...she is now 6 and i am planning on taking her to the san francisco zoo this week....my main reason being she is old enough now for me to explain certain things that she wouldn't have understood at a younger age....i wouldn't let her go without me though but i don't care about being overbearing...i don't think you could ever be wrong in caring for animals being treated poorly....

[flapjack]

Our zoo isn't too bad, as zoos go: but near us we have several animal rescue shelters, particularly horse rescue, that hold open days and welcome visitors and helpers (even very small volunteers.) Is there anything like that near you?

[royaloakmi]

I don't think you're wrong or going overboard. I used to work for a zoo (I was a grantwriter and they were one of my clients). I almost didn't take them on as a client, but then I researched and found out how much of their work/resources went to improving habitats for animals on their own grounds, repopulation programs in the wild, and provided refuge for rescued and/or injured/abused animals.

Even in zoos like that one (I consider it one of the best in terms of their treatment of animals), it can't be perfect. But, I do visit with my children and consider it to be a great place to teach them about respect for life/nature until we are able to travel and experience more natural habitats.

That being said, we don't attend circus, petting zoos or other animal performances. Nor, do I think I could attend a venue that does not attempt to meet the natural needs of their inhabitants - it's just too sad and I don't want my kids to see it.

However, I do think that a well run zoo with a strong educational mission provides a great place to talk about the place of animals and people in our world and how they interact.

As alternatives, you might explore organizations that rescue and rehabilitate animals in your area - there are often such organizations for birds in particular. Or, just venture out more into your own environs and focus on smaller creatures (bugs, birds, and domesticated animals) until you feel your daughter is old enough to comprehend these varying degrees of care for animals.

[dharmamama]

We had this discussion many times when my dd was a baby. Luckily, the two zoos near us are outstanding facilities as far as conservation and research goes, and they make an effort to give the animals "lifelike" surroundings, but we still have the heebies thinking about animals living in cages. My dh in particular was opposed to taking the kids.

Then, when my dd was about 21 months old and COMPLETELY into giraffes, a friend offered to take us to the zoo with free passes. I just couldn't pass it up because I knew Ramona would LOVE to see real giraffes in person.

I was right. We have been to a zoo three times in Ramona's life (twice since Efram came). The kids LOVED it and, imo, it has really opened their eyes to the animal world and REALLY sparked/contributed to an overwhelming interest in/love for animals. 90% of my kids' imaginative play is based around being/caring for/hunting animals (and by hunting I mean that they pretend to be predator animals capturing prey, and they tell me that they don't feel sad for their prey because "That's just the way the food chain works, Momma." They actually use the words predator and prey.) I really believe that seeing these animals in person has been key in helping them form their interest in and compassion/empathy for animals.

I still don't like the idea of them seeing animals in cages. But short of taking them to places like the African Savannah, the highlands of China, and Antarctica, there is nowhere else for them to see these animals in person. I do let them watch live-action animal videos, but that is not the same.

I don't have any answer for you, really, because I still struggle with it morally, but the answer dh and I have chosen to live with is, "If zoos help make our kids more aware of the need to consider the lives of animals, we'll make the trade-off and take them."

Btw, my husband adamantly REFUSES to do an aquarium.

Namaste!

[Peony]

I have issues with zoos as well, Dh doesn't. We struck a deal, our dc can go to zoos with the knowledge of how it is not natural, but circuses, Sea World (that comes up every year when I visit relatives in Orlando), anything where the animals are expected to perform are out of the question. Not perfect, but it'll have to work. We also live in a rural area, and are surrounded by wildlife which makes it easier. The only time we'd be able to go to a zoo is when we are traveling, the nearest one is 3+ hours away.