Down sides of being a LLL leader? - Page 5

[lilyka]

the down sides for me where supporting moms in descisions i didn't support and being diplomatic when giving the information. The two biggest were weaning and schedules (while I could twell them LL recommended no schedules and demand feeding and hat the studis said that would not help them if they were hell bent on schedules so my best hope was to help them get a les ridgid schedule, take a schedule rbeak etc . . .)

not mixing causes wasn't an issue for me.

co-leaders were. remember not all leaders are tree hugging hipies (i say with all the love ) you will find leaders who do the whole pearl thing, who are into schedules and sleep training. and you will have to work with them to present a united front on breastfeeding.

it is expensive. they nickle and dime leaders for everything

you are constantly in fundraising mode.

people expct you to drop everything for them and have little regard for the fact that you have a family (of course some don't realize they are calling someones home) . they call at al hours, rant when you don;t call them back in a timely manner, get mad if they don't like the information you give them, if you don't have magic solutions for them (my neighbor still rants about the information she got from LL - what she doesn't know is that she was talking to me- when her son wouldn't nurse. but he was nipple confused. there are no easy answers.)

paper work, paper work paper work. and an overly peppy district person who would harrass me for my paperwork.

I had a tendency to think some of the things were childish. games and activities and what not. Are we not all adults here.\

confronting problem parents. I hated that. Two main types in our group. Ones who spewed bad advice. and oneswhou would let thier children run amuck and cause problems. I am terrible aboutthat sort of thing. butit was so iritating when people let thier 4 and 5 year olds run around screaming and dangerous when th onlder kids would throw things and run through the circle (where the infants were).

the accrediation process is a good way to see if you are a good fit.

[pdx.mothernurture]

...I guess I just don't agree that the truth should be sugar-coated or hidden in order to avoid controversy...especially when the stakes are so high, and the babies primily at risk are the ones being circumcised in the immediate post-partum to match dad and avoid locker-room teasing. Jewish families usually circumcise at 8 days, many Muslim families circ much later. What if LLL took a stance on avoiding circumcision at least until the mother's milk is in and BF is well established? ie, if parents are determined to have it done they should have it done later as part of a religious ceremony, or no sooner than the 2 week check-up. Even from an immunological standpoint, that would make more sense since baby would at least have the benefit of colostrum by that point.

Many mothers are reluctant to circumcise, but leave the choice up to their partners because they believe since they don't have a penis, they really don't have a say. I think that circumcision within hours or days of birth takes advantage of her exaustion and that a side effect of delaying circumcision a week or two might give her the chance to recover from the initial post-partum, regaining their strength, giving medications/pain relief (if they used them) a chance to wear off and prolactin (the mothering hormone) a chance to kick into high gear. This would give mothers a better opportunity to a.) Bond with their baby and, b.) See how easy it is to care for an intact baby. The end result may be more babies who avoid circumcision entirely.

Jen

[Sarah]

lilyka- I think you are going to win the prize for actually answering Alexsam's question. I am sure that you could write another post explaining the wonderful up- sides as well, but you sure summed up the down sides you encountered!

Originally Posted by numom499

I think this is especially true in countries outside the US, where religious circ is more prevalent.

Look, as I said about the sacred cow, or the eating sage- (by the way- the sage analogy was not an attempt to point at a specific group- it was an attempt to draw a parallel a few steps out from the protected blind spot of our conversation which some people could not discuss because they simply could not see what I was talking about... keep reading- I'm about to do it again) - the reality that many babies and mothers are dealing with re: breastfeeding after circumcision is a fact that exists totally outside the debate for or against circumcision. It exists outside judgements and opinions. It exists outside religious dogma. It simply is.

And by pretending that it doesn't exist because of pressure by groups who have a special interest in insulating themselves (and by this we may even be speaking of families in Ohio who circumcised for secular reasons!) from any information about circumcision that may not lend support to the act.

Breastfeeding After Augmentation and Reduction Breast Surgery (double session)
Breastfeeding after Breast Augmentation Surgery: A comprehensive examination of breast
augmentation surgery and its impact upon lactation. [CERP]
Diana West, IBCLC

This is an actual session from a LLL conference. Why would they do this? What if it makes a mother feel bad? What if a mother goes to a LLL meeting and she has had a boob job and she finds out that LLL has information regarding the impact that boob jobs may have on lactation- isn't LLL overstepping their bounds by addressing this very personal private issue and risking embarassing and alienating a woman who needs breastfeeding information just as much as any other woman? They certainly should never host this session in Los Angeles where breast augmentation is so prevalent!

Well... duh no Sarah... breast augmentation and breast reduction CAN really have an impact on breastfeeding. LLL is not supporting or condemning these procedures- they are simply giving truthful factual information about them so that lactation professionals who deal with these issues can identify them, so doctors who do the surgery can understand the broader impact of the surgery beyond cup size- feedback from the lactation professionals! (when was the last time you heard of a plastic surgeon helping a mother who was struggling to nurse- this is not their field!), so women considering the surgery can have factual information beforehand so that she can make a truly informed decision understanding the potential for breastfeeding complications....it's got NOTHING to do with judging those women-

OK. So does everyone understand now?

The raw penis wound located in the center of the baby's body (proper positioning anyone?), the psycological and physical trauma of the procedure, the common use of pacifiers during the circumcision, the prolonged difficult to rouse sleep cycle, seperation of mother and baby, the physical exhaustion, the stress to the mother creating insecurity and self doubt ... these points to consider from circumcision are an equally real challenging element of the breastfeeding dyad as the severed milk ducts of a mother with a breast reduction. They are a documentable reality which LLL refuses to disclose.

[Little Bear's Mama]

Originally Posted by lilyka

you will find leaders who do the whole pearl thing, who are into schedules and sleep training. and you will have to work with them to present a united front on breastfeeding.

Aaaack! Where in the world would you find a Leader who agreed with the Pearl philosophy, much less practiced it?? I would be inclined to think a Leader like that slipped through the cracks, and I would follow the channels that are available to make a complaint. Knowing she was PRACTICING the Pearl "techniques" would make me wonder if the Leader wasn't dishonest during her application. Seriously.

Originally Posted by lilyka

it is expensive. they nickle and dime leaders for everything

Let's be fair, here. The only thing Leaders are *required* to pay is Leader dues.

Originally Posted by lilyka

people expct you to drop everything for them and have little regard for the fact that you have a family (of course some don't realize they are calling someones home) . they call at al hours, rant when you don;t call them back in a timely manner, get mad if they don't like the information you give them, if you don't have magic solutions for them (my neighbor still rants about the information she got from LL - what she doesn't know is that she was talking to me- when her son wouldn't nurse. but he was nipple confused. there are no easy answers.)

I can't argue with that. That may be one of the most difficult things to deal with.

Originally Posted by lilyka

paper work, paper work paper work. and an overly peppy district person who would harrass me for my paperwork.

[Little Bear's Mama]

Originally Posted by Sarah

This is an actual session from a LLL conference. Why would they do this? What if it makes a mother feel bad? What if a mother goes to a LLL meeting and she has had a boob job and she finds out that LLL has information regarding the impact that boob jobs may have on lactation- isn't LLL overstepping their bounds by addressing this very personal private issue and risking embarassing and alienating a woman who needs breastfeeding information just as much as any other woman? They certainly should never host this session in Los Angeles where breast augmentation is so prevalent!

Ummm...well, I see the two issues as different things. Maybe I'm crazy. I see the illustration you're trying to make, but I see the biggest difference is that mothers who have had breast augmentation usually go to LLL, an IBCLC, or other bfing advocate sometime before birth because there is that question "Can I?".

Originally Posted by Sarah

Well... duh no Sarah... breast augmentation and breast reduction CAN really have an impact on breastfeeding.

Well...obviously! It's possible for nerves to have been severed. If the implant is placed in the breast instead of under the chest wall, it's possible that ducts have been cut, as well. I don't think anyone HERE has argued that circ has no effect on the bfing relationship. If you have delt with that attitude elsewhere, I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by Sarah

LLL is not supporting or condemning these procedures- they are simply giving truthful factual information about them so that lactation professionals who deal with these issues can identify them, so doctors who do the surgery can understand the broader impact of the surgery beyond cup size- feedback from the lactation professionals! (when was the last time you heard of a plastic surgeon helping a mother who was struggling to nurse- this is not their field!), so women considering the surgery can have factual information beforehand so that she can make a truly informed decision understanding the potential for breastfeeding complications....it's got NOTHING to do with judging those women

True. But, you have to remember a few things here 1) we're talking about the Mother's body 2) Doctors don't usually *recommend* breast augmentation and 3) Religion plays no part in breast augmentation.

Originally Posted by Sarah

The raw penis wound located in the center of the baby's body (proper positioning anyone?), the psycological and physical trauma of the procedure, the common use of pacifiers during the circumcision, the prolonged difficult to rouse sleep cycle, seperation of mother and baby, the physical exhaustion, the stress to the mother creating insecurity and self doubt ... these points to consider from circumcision are an equally real challenging element of the breastfeeding dyad as the severed milk ducts of a mother with a breast reduction. They are a documentable reality which LLL refuses to disclose.

So, the main issue is that it is not discussed in depth in LLL literature, and there hasn't been an ENTIRE conference session on the effect of circumcision on the initiation and duration of lactation?

[Sarah]

Do doctors recommend circumcision?
(do doctors also not recommend and pressure parents to feed formula?)

Do doctors who do recommend and practice circumcision or elective formula feeding do so with the blessing and backing of their medical associations and scientific evidence?

I see the biggest difference is that mothers who have had breast augmentation usually go to LLL, an IBCLC, or other bfing advocate sometime before birth because there is that question "Can I?".

Yes, and with ample information about the effects of augmentation and reduction.. many women are able to factor that into their decision before surgery "should I?"

True. But, you have to remember a few things here 1) we're talking about the Mother's body 2) Doctors don't usually *recommend* breast augmentation and 3) Religion plays no part in breast augmentation.

1. You say that as if the infant is not an integral part of the dyad. All the perfect milk ducts in the world won't help a baby suck if they are traumatized and exhausted.
2. See my opener
3. What does religion have to do with lactation facts? Are you saying that a conflict of interest with religion is a good reason for a professional orginization to withhold factual information from the public which trusts them as an unbiased source of the BEST information out there?

[kalisis]

Originally Posted by lilyka

you will find leaders who do the whole pearl thing, who are into schedules and sleep training.

It is my understanding that any leader utilizing the Pearl "system" would not be a leader for long. That definitely goes against one of the 10 LLL principles which is using Loving Guidance - their version of Gentle Discipline.

You have to agree with all 10 Principles before you can proceed in the LA process.

[numom499]

[QUOTE=Sarah]

OK. So does everyone understand now?

QUOTE]

Look SArah, I get it. As a matter of fact I am absolutely aopposed to RIC. I do not agree with LLL's nonstance on circ. I was just pointing out another reason why they may not be saying anything.

[mama24-7]

OT - what's Pearl? I'm curious.

Thanks,
Sus

[umami_mommy]

Originally Posted by anniej

It is my understanding that any leader utilizing the Pearl "system" would not be a leader for long. That definitely goes against one of the 10 LLL principles which is using Loving Guidance - their version of Gentle Discipline.

You have to agree with all 10 Principles before you can proceed in the LA process.

yes, leader applicants are required to explain how they put into practice in their real life the 10 concepts of LLL and one of them is "gentle guidance" AKA attachment parenting/gentle discipline/emotional responsiveness.

so i don't think a pearls advocate would be recommended as a leader.

[gr8fulmom]

jumping in... I have read the first few pages and admittedly only skimmed the last two... and I am speaking officially as a Mom...

While it would be nice to have a group that promoted all the tenants of NFL that is not what LLL is for... and for what is worth that would be very hard to do since many of the people who belive in NFL do not agree on every point so who would decide the riles but I digress...

LLL is there to help women breastfeed period. LLL is already touted by many as too extreme etc. the more barriers that are set up, the more stands they take, unfortunately people who need bf help get alienated... so while I totally agree about non-circ... it is also important to me that the child is breastfed AND if because LLL took a stance and was anti-circ and a mother who already circed or planned to didn't feel comfortable asking for the help or support they need... that would be bad!! So, while I would like to live in perfect world where LLL stood for exactlky what *I* believe... I am very happy knowing that they try to hug the middle, embracing alternative and mainstream moms which will doubtlessly resylt in more successful breastfeeding relationships than if they took a big stand on a contraversial subject and alienated moms so that won't attend... I know one story where a mom attended a LLL meeting with her bottle fed baby and even asked the leader to help mix the forumla... thankfully this leader did not bat an eyelash and helped her out... turns out she had just found she was pregnant with number two and was desperate to avoid the problems she had the first time which had resulted in her forumla feeding... if she had felt alienated baby #2 would likely have been formula fed...

I have also learned that people listen more to advice by example than preaching... LLL leaders provide a great example of confiendt parenting (in most cases) and people notice what they do and often learn more about these topics and then are able to make different choices... I have seen this happen with noncirc and vax even tho these are mixing causes issues... and I know at least one LLL leader who had a UC

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by Little Bear's Mama

Aaaack! Where in the world would you find a Leader who agreed with the Pearl philosophy, much less practiced it?? I would be inclined to think a Leader like that slipped through the cracks, and I would follow the channels that are available to make a complaint. Knowing she was PRACTICING the Pearl "techniques" would make me wonder if the Leader wasn't dishonest during her application. Seriously.

the Pearls are surprisingly crunchy except for discipline. I was never asked about how i disiplined my children. For all they knew I could have painted them purple and marched them around the block naked when they were cting up. they wouldn;t have been any the wiser. I know most of the moms in our group spanked. It was shocking but discipline has nothing to do with breastfeeding. and we were all there to discuss breastfeeding. Therefor it was never really addressed.

most of the moms were very mainstream. almost all of our moms worked full time, most circed thier boys, disposable diapers . . .heck once I walked in and everyone was bottlefeeding (it was a little sureal). My rfiend was in a group with a leder who bottle fed at night to help her child sleep longer stetches (thats when she hung it up - I think she walked out of the meeting and never went back). many of the momns in the group and leaders had no desire for natrual birth. All they had to be able to do is say "LLL recommends . . . ." or "LLL policy is . . ." . . "but take what you want and leave the rest.

Let's be fair, here. The only thing Leaders are *required* to pay is Leader dues.

we had to pay regonal and national dues each year ($60), pay for any long distance calls (which is really common in this area as we serve a very large area), pay for all our books/reading materials ($100), yearly leader training ($10-$70 plus traveling, lodging, etc), leader applicant fee which was like $30. I was so broke when I applied for leadership (as in gas to get to the meetings was a hardship) then they drug it our for 2 years. I was so over it by the time i got through but had invested too much money to quit. But just the yearly dues were really hard for me to make. and the meeting stuff here and there really adds up if youdon't have any money. granted in some bigger groups they pay for all this but we were working off the support of 10-15 members. there wouldn't have been enough to cover one leader much less all of us. And they still bill me. I retired 3 years ago!! and they still want me to pay all my back dues. one of the reasons I retired is because I couldn;t afford th dues that year. So they send me a bill for all four years about every 4 months. silliness. and lets not forget the mountains of stamps and envelopes for all the paper work! (j/k )

And it isn't all bad. i especially liked doing the 1-800 number and email questions. I wan't fond of leading meetings. sometimes we would all ditch and go for coffee if just a few regulars showed up. and I learned a lot. and logged a lot of hours toward my IBCLC. It wasn't a bad experiance (except for that perky lady in MN who wanted paper work)

[Nora'sMama]

Slight hijack, Lilyka: how can being a LLL leader help towards becoming an IBCLC? Not that I am on that path (yet) but it is something I have turned around in my mind...what IS the path to becoming an IBCLC? If it's too OT for this thread you can PM me...or if I don't hear from you I will start another thread. Thanks.

More germane to the thread topic, I am volunteering for LLL tomorrow (booth at an Earth Day thing) and I am signed up to work with a Leader so I will get to ask her lots of questions about becoming one...I'm excited...

[Pinky Tuscadero]

I disagree about the money issues. Leaders are not required to attend yearly Leader training. Once you are trained as a Leader you are done with mandatory training. Most women choose to attend conferences etc because they are interested but they are not required. The yearly dues are $30, which is actually less than that of regular membership.
Every organization I've ever been involved with needs fundraising. It's hard to *do* anything without money. That is not just LLL. It doesn't take a lot of work to raise money. Our Group only has 6 or 7 regular moms. We pay our Leader's dues for them. Fundraising is not hard. We do a few things each year, maybe 3 or 4 fundraisers, and have plenty of money for everything we want to do.
The paperwork is not bad. There is a monthly report but it takes all of about 5 minutes to fill in and you can usually do it by email if you want. Then there is a quarterly financial report which also only takes a few minutes. The only one I have trouble with is the annual financial report. It's like balancing your checkbook, something I'm not good at. But even that only takes like 20 minutes, once a year.
Planning monthly meetings is easy. LLL has tons of meeting ideas on their website that you can use. We just pick one out and print it out each month. I keep a file of them once I use them so I can pull one out at a later date when I don't have time to choose a new one.
I work full time at my job ( I own a flower shop with 15 employees) and have 3 kids under 5. If I can find time to do this much volunteer work, anyone can!

Suzy

[numom499]

Originally Posted by lilyka

I was never asked about how i disiplined my children. )

during the app process there is the part where you are asked to describe what the prinicples mean to you, discipline is addressed in #10.



The Ten LLL Concepts:
The basic philosophy of La Leche League is summarized in the following statements:

1 Mothering through breastfeeding is the most natural and effective way of understanding and satisfying the needs of the baby.

2 Mother and baby need to be together early and often to establish a satisfying relationship and an adequate milk supply.

3 In the early years the baby has an intense need to be with his mother which is as basic as his need for food.

4 Breast milk is the superior infant food.

5 For the healthy, full-term baby, breast milk is the only food necessary until the baby shows signs of needing solids, about the middle of the first year after birth.

6 Ideally the breastfeeding relationship will continue until the baby outgrows the need.

7 active participation by the mother in childbirth is a help in getting breastfeeding off to a good start.

8 Breastfeeding is enhanced and the nursing couple sustained by the loving support, help, and companionship of the baby's father. A father's unique relationship with his baby is an important element in the child's development from early infancy.

9 Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible.

10 From infancy on, children need loving guidance which reflects acceptance of their capabilities and sensitivity to their feelings.

I would be very surprised to find a leader who used the pearls methods, let alone advocating for them. I think there are leaders who have probably spanked on occasion, but it is not their ideal, more of a mistake and those leaders are definitely the exception, not the rule.