I feel defeated...MIl rant and GD, UPDATE #64 - Page 2

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by aira

Um, are you guys really calling love-withdrawl a logical or natural consequence?

And OP, are you leaving your child in the care of a woman who defends her right to pull his hair? Did I read correctly that you go to another room during her visits and leave him unsupervized with her?

I really hope not.

Aira - I think everyone was trying to tell me that IF MIL had explained to ds WHY she was leaving - then it would have made more sense for this to be a consequence. But, with the way MIL handled it - I think she made it more about love withdrawal, at least that's how I took it from the WAY she left and WHEN she left (not immediately after the hitting took place.)

Also, I DID leave the room when MIL pulled ds's hair, but dh was in the same room and he immediately got up to handle the situation. I knew he'd do better handling it, because I would have just pulled her hair And, that's not what I wanted to teach my ds.

[aira]

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

Did DS get to leave when GM pulled his hair to teach him a lesson? Why is it only one way?

Then, if that seemed to be sinking in and I felt like he was open to it, I'd say "would you like to phone grandma and let her know that you're sorry about hitting? I bet she'd be really happy to know that."

Was DS given the apology that he deserves? What does that say to him?



Why is there no discussion about MIL being left cold for her actions toward DS? Would that not be a natural consequence for her abuse of him?


OP, whether or not she said why she was leaving, it's love-withdrawl. I got their distinction - I just think it's a rediculous one to make. Does one really think that specifically telling a child that I'm leaving because of you makes it better or gentler? WTH?

I can't really believe I'm reading this here.

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by blessed

I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

Then, if that seemed to be sinking in and I felt like he was open to it, I'd say "would you like to phone grandma and let her know that you're sorry about hitting? I bet she'd be really happy to know that."

If instead you respond with something like "I can't believe she left without saying good-bye! Look what it's doing to poor ds!" then ds continues to think only of himself, what he wants, how he is affected, and learns exactly the wrong message.

My take anyway.

blessed - I understand your point, and had this been a one time occurrence, then I'd be more likely to handle the situation differently. (Though I didn't say to ds that I couldn't believe MIL did that, though I did to dh LATER.)

Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.

But, thank you for your input, you have definitely given me another take on the situation.

[aira]

Originally Posted by peilover010202

Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.

Why does an abusive person have access to you child? I'm not able to understand why there is a discussion about the particularities of how MIL should be allowed to mess with you son.

It's all messing with your son.

[mamaduck]

I just read your other thread as well. I think the bottom line is that she needs to stop dropping by unannounced and uninvited. If you could address and resolve this, it would solve a lot of the other issues. She needs to call before she comes over. And you need to be willing to say, "Its not a good time." It would be best if you DH told her, but if is unwilling to to that -- then you will have to. But he needs to understand that this *your* home and your family, and its time for her to back off and let your live your life and have your routines. She has become a disruption, and that is really sad. If your DH wants you to have a good relationship with his mom, then he needs to understand that the only way to do that is with clear boundries.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by peilover010202

my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute...

Oh, ick. That's pathological. No wonder he feels so conflicted about her.

Sounds like probably the best bet is to do as some PPs have suggested and set some limits with grandma - her number, timing and length of visits, and how much of a role she has in disciplining. It would be mighty tough to pull off without destabilizing everything. The situation is so tenuous as it is. Maybe your counselor would have some good suggestions about how to approach this.

[heartmama]

I think your two year old is expressing the unspoken tension rife within the situation. While I agree that learning not to hit is perfectly appropriate, I think telling him that grandma left because he hit her is a half truth. The full truth seems to be something like "Grandma left because being hit was the last straw, and an easy scapegoat for the underlying tension between us~ she doesn't respect the way I raise you and I'm sick of her relentless intrusive overbearing visits. The only way I can even stand her is by remaining emotionally detached, but your father thinks she should have free reign to come over any time she pleases, and so you seem to be stuck with this awkward experience almost daily."

But I don't think a two year old can understand that.

While emotional detachment from your MIL is helpful, physical detachment is the key.

I guess I cannot relate with giving my dh a say over who I should have to visit me 6 times a week. If dh wanted to have his mother over in the evening when he came home from work, that is his choice. I can go out for coffee *LOL* He does not get to say whether I should visit her when he isn't here. That is for me to decide, not him. So I don't know what to advise you on this. Dh would never tell me I had to respond a certain way to his mother.

Having someone around you 5-6 times a week that is overbearing and critical of your parenting seems like a very unpleasant way to live. If for no other reason, I'd put up some limits so that my child wasn't confused and blamed for the underlying tension that affects him.

One visit a week, planned in advance, when ds is well rested and fed, would be generous and thoughtful on your part. If she wants more than that, she can earn it with respectful behavior.

[CryPixie83]

Originally Posted by peilover010202

Just a bit more background - my MIL continually threatens ds with "well, if you aren't going to play with mamaw, then I'm leaving, she walks out the door, he crys, she comes back and thinks it's cute. She's toying with his emotions about 80% of the time she visits (doing this walking out the door ridiculousness.) So, I have a hard time agreeing to this sort of behavior overall.

Ya know, if my MIL did that, I'd lock the door the second time. Her behavior is really unacceptable. Poor ds shouldn't be manipulated like that

[Magella]

Originally Posted by blessed

I had this thought as well. Gee, if walked into a house and the person's 2.5 yo hit me and stuck his tongue out at me, I'd leave too.

Seriously? Wow. I'd just wonder if I had come at a bad time, and politely (and sincerely) ask if it would be better for me to come back another time. We're talking about a 2.5 year old here. A toddler. When a toddler hits, they're trying to say something. It's not time to walk out as punishment, it's time to listen and respond (or gracefully take your leave so the parents can listen and respond).

Originally Posted by blessed

When your ds was upset that MIL left, that would have been a perfect opportunity to say 'MILs feelings were hurt, honey, because of being hit. She's sad now and had to go home because she feels so sad. That's why we don't hit people."

I totally disagree. I think it's ridiculous for a grown adult to be hurt by the actions of a 2.5 year old (a toddler), nevermind hurt to the point where they just can't bear to stay and talk it over. I really think a 2.5 year old is devastated when a person they love just walks out like that, and I think a 2.5 year old would be just as devastated if a person they love explains "I'm leaving b/c you hit me." We are talking about a toddler here. Someone who is just learning about getting along with others. Someone who has been hurt by this same adult grandmother. Someone who is stressed and who was tired to begin with, and who has the coping resources of, well, a toddler.

And anyway, I'm guessing that this MIL used the hitting merely as an excuse to be passively aggresssive and mean.

Originally Posted by heartmama

One visit a week, planned in advance, when ds is well rested and fed, would be generous and thoughtful on your part. If she wants more than that, she can earn it with respectful behavior.

I agree with this. Your MIL's many unannounced visits and dreadful behavior are hurting your family.

[aira]

Thank you Sledg, for saying what I'm just too frustrated to articulate. Well said!

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by heartmama

I think your two year old is expressing the unspoken tension rife within the situation. While I agree that learning not to hit is perfectly appropriate, I think telling him that grandma left because he hit her is a half truth. The full truth seems to be something like "Grandma left because being hit was the last straw, and an easy scapegoat for the underlying tension between us~ she doesn't respect the way I raise you and I'm sick of her relentless intrusive overbearing visits. The only way I can even stand her is by remaining emotionally detached, but your father thinks she should have free reign to come over any time she pleases, and so you seem to be stuck with this awkward experience almost daily."

But I don't think a two year old can understand that.

While emotional detachment from your MIL is helpful, physical detachment is the key.

heartmama - your post actually brought tears to my eyes, because it's the first time I've been forced to realize that my relationship (or lack thereof) is contributing to my ds's confusion about his own grandmother.

I have already scheduled an appt with my counselor to discuss HOW to handle MIL effectively. Dh has agreed that he will talk with her about the frequency of her visits (once she gets over being passive-aggressive about the whole walking out instance.)

Dh also told MIL that only dh and I should discipline ds and that we will handle it in the future. So, I hope that boundary was clearly set.

For now, that is where I'm going to start. I think this is a bigger issue to handle than "fixing" it all at once. So, baby steps.

And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.

[sapphire_chan]

Offtopic: I still think that the real problem here is that the OP's MIL has the emotional maturity of a 3 year old.

[peilover010202]

Sledg - I agree with everything you said. Thank you for that.

[aira]

And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.

I think everyone here knows that. My concern is that her issues are harming your son. That's abuse, by definition. You and DH are allowing that to happen. Perhaps your point is that he is not being harmed, and well, I just strongly disagree with that.

What will you say to your son when he's older and asks you why GM treated him so badly? Do you think the baby-steps philosophy will help him understand - much less feel better about - why she was allowed ever to mistreat him, but that he was "disciplined" for expressing frustration about it?

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by aira

I think everyone here knows that. My concern is that her issues are harming your son. That's abuse, by definition. You and DH are allowing that to happen. Perhaps your point is that he is not being harmed, and well, I just strongly disagree with that.

What will you say to your son when he's older and asks you why GM treated him so badly? Do you think the baby-steps philosophy will help him understand - much less feel better about - why she was allowed ever to mistreat him, but that he was "disciplined" for expressing frustration about it?

Aira - honestly, if being married to my dh wasn't important to me, then my MIL would have very little to do with my ds. She is not someone who I particularly like. But, overall, she adores ds. Do I think maybe the WAY she treats him may affect his relationship with her later in life? Absolutely, that's why I want to set some boundaries for her, with help from dh so he doesn't resent me, so that ds has a good relationship with her. But, at this point - I'm not willing to end up divorced because I tell my dh that his mom is the spawn of satan and will no longer be allowed in our lives.

I do think that when ds is older, he will have the advantage of constant, consistent GD from me, which I believe will establish a solid base for him. And, hopefully a new "visiting schedule" will help set some boundaries so ds can have a good relationship with her. And if that's not possible, because he doesn't like her, then at least I know I've tried to make the relationship successful.

I know personally, I resent that my parents didn't think have my grandparents involved in my life was important. So, to this day, I talk with them all limitedly - and the conversation is hard, because they really know nothing about me. So, it feels like a catch-22 here. Involved or not involved - niether sounds like a good situation.

I understand what many people are telling me with regard to not needing to be around when MIL visits. But, when she stops by nearly everynight at ds's bedtime - well, it's a bad time for me to leave. AND, I'm not willing to leave my own home because of her. I WOHM Full-time, so really the only time I get quality time with ds is in the am before work and after work in the evenings (in which MIL thinks she needs undivided attention from us all.) I;m not willing to give up that precious bit of time everyday from ds to make things more comfortable for MIL.

And, last point , ds has been hitting everyone with more consistency, not just MIL. He's been doing it to dh and to me. It's really a phase that he's going through overall, I don't think he targets her (but she is over frequently enough that I"m sure it may seem like it to her.)

[blessed]

Kids live up - or down - to whatever you expect of them.

A child who is 32 months would typically have a very good sense of conscience about hitting - that it is wrong because it hurts people and makes them feel bad. By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.

I can't even conjure up an image of my 26 month old purposefully pulling the hair of an adult - it would be unfathomable. To be fair, I can't imagine any adult acting so bizarrely with her as the OPs MIL has acted with her son, so clearly we're talking about an unusual situation here.

But in general, a child coming up on the age of 3 is entirely capable of demonstrating empathy for others, and factoring that into their own behaviors. I've always strongly favored this approach and steered completely clear of child centered approaches which teach 'I should not hit because I'm worried about what will happen to ME'. My girl doesn't hit or pull hair entirely because she feels badly about how it hurts the other person or animal, not because of anything to do with what will or won't happen to her. This is at least partly the result of my helping frame these circumstances for her "oh honey! That hurts puppy to pull his tail! Ooh, he's sad now. Do you want to pet him and tell him you're sorry?"

If she pulled grandma's hair instead of puppy's tail, my response would be the same. I'm not sure I understand this point about adults being impervious to hurt feelings. What would be the use in teaching a child that lesson?

I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.

[gardenmommy]

First, my relationship with my own MIL is strained, at best. We also have boundary issues which we are working on (they come out in different ways, but are still boundary issues, nonetheless). I appreciate the difficulty of what is happening here, and know how hard it is to change. I am still working on it, so this is as much for me as it is for you!

Originally Posted by peilover010202

For now, that is where I'm going to start. I think this is a bigger issue to handle than "fixing" it all at once. So, baby steps.

I very much disagree with the baby steps thing. Sometimes you just need to say, "this far and no more", and be very firm about it. You may (probably will) hurt her feelings. You may (probably will) cause discord within the extended family. You may (probably will) be in the doghouse for quite awhile. However, for the sake of your family, you and your DH must get on the same page and set some clear boundaries around your family. It is the only way to have a good relationship with your MIL.

Second, and this is somewhat controversial, she IS NOT your family. When you and DH got married, you created a new family that includes you, your DH, and any children you bring into that union. Everyone else is now a RELATIVE. They are important, but not urgent. They are important, but not first place. They get the leftovers of your time and energy. If they don't like it, tough cookies, that's their problem. You don't have to be mean and rude about it, just be firm. You are not responsible for their reactions to your boundaries. You are responsible for keeping your family safe.

[/QUOTE]
And to Aria - MIL is family. I don't necessarily feel like she's "abusive" at this point. I honestly feel like it's how she was raised and she doesn't know any better and that topped with her intrusive and manipulative behavior compounds the issue.[/QUOTE]


Third, it doesn't matter if she was raised that way, knows what she is doing, does it subconsciously, etc. She is still doing it, therefore, she is not a safe person (emotionally, physically, etc.) to have around your child who is extremely vulnerable (emotionally, physically, etc.). Don't make excuses for her behavior. You aren't helping her or your child by allowing her to continue in this behavior pattern. Call a spade a spade, deal with it, and keep your family safe. Maybe the firm boundaries you and your DH create can be a catalyst for her to begin to choose healthier behaviors.

[peilover010202]

Originally Posted by blessed

By this age, kids who were still hitting on anything other than an exceptional circumstance would be deemed behavioral problems by most preschools.
-----------
But in general, a child coming up on the age of 3 is entirely capable of demonstrating empathy for others
-----------------
I'm curious, if you've not worked on developing empathy and a conscience in your toddler, by what method do you attempt to address violent behavior toward others? Don't hit because...I said so? Just wondering.

WOW! Without knowing my ds, it's hard to know what exactly you mean by this? I thought it was much later before a child develops empathy for others. Here, I found a link:

http://www.sesameworkshop.org/parent...contentId=573&


"Being empathetic means being able to put yourself into another person's shoes and to experience something just as that other person would. I don't mean to suggest that preschoolers possess the cognitive skills that would let them do this consciously. The capacity to truly understand what is going on in somebody else's heart and mind doesn't develop until a child is age six or seven. "

And actually, this is the first phase of hitting my ds has entered. Where exactly is it coming from? I really don't know. Is it his home daycare? Maybe. There are children YOUNGER than him and OLDER than him and one little girl who is the same age. so, it's possible it sees it there and thats why? I don't know.

Dh and I have always taught him to be empathetic. We have 2 dogs and over the course of ds's life, many times he's pulled their tail or stepped on their foot, etc. And, we always explain that "that really hurts Gretchen when you pull her tail, it makes her sad, could you pet Gretchen and tell her your sorry." So, we're not trying to say no "because we said so." And, I've never eluded to that.

[peilover010202]

For Everyone - Please Read

Originally Posted by gardenmommy

I very much disagree with the baby steps thing. Sometimes you just need to say, "this far and no more", and be very firm about it. You may (probably will) hurt her feelings. You may (probably will) cause discord within the extended family. You may (probably will) be in the doghouse for quite awhile. However, for the sake of your family, you and your DH must get on the same page and set some clear boundaries around your family. It is the only way to have a good relationship with your MIL.

You know, I agree with you. But, because my dh sees absolutely nothing wrong with the way MIL has handled these two situations - I really have no support from him. - Though I have to add that once I explained how ds probably felt about the situation, he was much more understanding and DID talk with her about how inappropriate her behavior was.

Dh thinks it's fine if anyone wants to stop by anytime and with any frequency they so desire. I, on the other hand, think it's appropriate to call first. Obviously, on occasion, I have no problem with a relative stopping by because they were nearby and wanted to say hi. But at bedtime? Please. She lives minutes away and could easily find out what works for us.

So, how then, can I approach this in a way to set a "this far and no more" boundary when dh isn't in agreement? He's willing to ask her to cut back on the frequency of visits, but even this is only to appease me.

[lissabob]

I say this from a position of concern and love-

She does all this- the PA behavior (torture) of your child, the unannounced visits... all of it, because YOU let her. You are allowing her to hurt your child and rule your life. In order to stop this you need to get your dh behind you and to support you- otherwise he will go behind your back. Have you considered counselling? If my MIL was bugging me pretty much every single day I would completely and utterly lose it. Boundaries are a GOOD thing. I know Dr Phil is full of it on a lot of things, but I completely agree with what he has to say about IL's-

http://drphil.com/articles/article/28

If you would like I know a great board that will help you steel yourself to deal with this and hopefully get your dh on your side.