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"children need boundaries" (is this true?) - Page 7

post #121 of 135
Gosh, I'm surprised that people think violence is always learned. I think it is a completely natural, primal human response, just like the impulse towards "mine," and conversely, the impulse towards love and attachment. I am 100% sure I am not the only parent whose toddler started hitting at some point without ever having seen it modeled (even by other kids).
post #122 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
Gosh, I'm surprised that people think violence is always learned. I think it is a completely natural, primal human response, just like the impulse towards "mine," and conversely, the impulse towards love and attachment. I am 100% sure I am not the only parent whose toddler started hitting at some point without ever having seen it modeled (even by other kids).
I believe the concept of "mine" comes from a focus on lack. I don't believe that violence is innate to humans, but there is a long history that has embraced this belief. It doesn't fit with my beliefs of unity and abundance in the Universe, however.

Pat
post #123 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
I am 100% sure I am not the only parent whose toddler started hitting at some point without ever having seen it modeled (even by other kids).
No modeling of hitting anywhere in our boy's life (not even TV, and at the stage it happened he was with me 24/7 so no daycare influence), but he went through about a 4-month hitting stage just before he turned 2. I'd like to think that my gentle (but firm) response, validation of emotions, and redirection to other outlets made it shorter than it would have been othewise, but who knows? We'll see what happens with DD in the coming months, if she does the same or similar. She's WAY more feisty than DS was at this age, so I'll be interested to see what happens.
post #124 of 135
I believe that hitting, like any behavior, is a message about underlying needs which are unmet. I believe that by labeling and judging them as "violence" or "unacceptable" creates the adversarial relationship. Instead, methods of redirecting, as a partner working to meet the underlying needs, toward mutually agreeable solutions, eliminates the need to label and judge the behavior.

Pat
post #125 of 135
I think toddlers hit because they don't understand their emotions and how to communicate them, and hitting seems like the only way to communicate their feelings at that point. I don't think it's because they are violent or that they will become violent adults if something isn't done about it.
post #126 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Bumping.

Pat
Pat, may I ask why you often bump very old (and usually very contentious) threads?

What are you hoping we'll get out of having the same argument a second time?

I'm not snarking, I'm truly wondering why you do this.

--Olive
post #127 of 135

boundaries/structure - I feel a moderate amount works for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I believe that hitting, like any behavior, is a message about underlying needs which are unmet. I believe that by labeling and judging them as "violence" or "unacceptable" creates the adversarial relationship. Instead, methods of redirecting, as a partner working to meet the underlying needs, toward mutually agreeable solutions, eliminates the need to label and judge the behavior.

Pat
This makes so much sense, if only I could muster up the patience to never yell at my children or get really angry. I've been doing tons of work on myself in hopes to be a better parent every day. I know it works better when I can redirect with a hug and create a moment where Crispin can talk to me about what is happening for him. I would love to homeschool and that was my original intent, but I just can't handle the 24/7 thing up here in a tiny rural very religious area where I can't find any crunchy mama friends! I had a mama group in my previous area that was very full and busy and there were always other kids to do stuff with. I also miss being close to the DIA, DSC, Cranbrook, the zoo.... All these things helped me create some structure and fun without locking them to a classroom. I do like the teachers I have encountered thus far, they are meeting Harriet's very advanced reading not only with appropriate material, but offering her books above her level if she's interested, and she's given many opportunities to do independent projects, like studying elephants which she did from many directions for at least 2 months last year. She gets to have girl friends she sees every day and really enjoys school. Sigh. We'll see how Crispin does, he may do fabulous, or it may be too much for him. We'll see. At home they play outside for hours, making all kinds of stories together. It's so fun to watch and listen. They get along better when they have some time apart. so far it's working ok, no matter how much of an unschooler heart I have.
post #128 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_olive View Post
Pat, may I ask why you often bump very old (and usually very contentious) threads?

What are you hoping we'll get out of having the same argument a second time?

I'm not snarking, I'm truly wondering why you do this.

--Olive
I see the same questions and assumptions posted again (usually by folks new to the forum), and the older thread has dissected and discussed the nuances and seems informative to the goal of Gentle Discipline. Actually, I do consciously avoid the "very contentious" ones. This one seemed quite mild and civil, ime.

Pat
post #129 of 135
so am I understanding that these incidents keep happening, even after your gentle warnings?

I would make a point to revisit the incident after the playdate is over. I realize he's only 2, but I do remember when my son was 2 he really "got it" when we discussed incidents after the fact as well as the "reminder" during the fact. He may not "respond" but he'll hear you.

Also, after saying "please don't hit, it hurts..." maybe add something like... "if you want so-and-so's attention you can just wave (or say his name, or whatever". Give him an alternative to just NOT doing the action. The same w/ taking toys. let him knowhe needs to give it back right then but maybe add "and maybe if you give it back to him then YOU can have a turn too"... so that he understands that the "payback" for making the pc decision is a positive one.
post #130 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
I believe that hitting, like any behavior, is a message about underlying needs which are unmet. I believe that by labeling and judging them as "violence" or "unacceptable" creates the adversarial relationship. Instead, methods of redirecting, as a partner working to meet the underlying needs, toward mutually agreeable solutions, eliminates the need to label and judge the behavior.

Pat
i don't agree. i don't think there's always an underlying need. sometimes young toddlers hit just for the sake of hitting.....especially older babies. i've been smacked many times in the face and it wasn't violent, but it sure was entertaining to the hitter. they weren't modeled this by anyone....and they weren't hitting me because they lacked in having their needs met....it was just something new they had discovered & were trying it out. it's so funny to see mom's face when i hit it & hear her yelp
post #131 of 135

give alternative behavior ideas

Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
"please don't hit, it hurts..." maybe add something like... "if you want so-and-so's attention you can just wave (or say his name, or whatever". Give him an alternative to just NOT doing the action.
This is an important point that I think some folks miss, or it's easy to forget if you're flustered in the moment by what your angel is doing
post #132 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
i don't agree. i don't think there's always an underlying need. sometimes young toddlers hit just for the sake of hitting.....especially older babies. i've been smacked many times in the face and it wasn't violent, but it sure was entertaining to the hitter. they weren't modeled this by anyone....and they weren't hitting me because they lacked in having their needs met....it was just something new they had discovered & were trying it out. it's so funny to see mom's face when i hit it & hear her yelp
yep.

I've been smacked and bitten by dd for her entertainment purposes too. She had never seen this modeled either..not until recently. Heck she's been biting and hitting a long time before she ever saw it modeled anywhere. She used to think it was hilarious when Mommy yelped. She's also done the biting and hitting in anger. For us, at least, it has helped for me to say "we don't hit" or "we don't bite" So far, that seems to have clicked for her. When she is upset, she will sometimes throw things or scream or lie down on the floor and put her face in her hands but those expressions of frustration and anger are ok by me. She is free to express herself as long as she isn't physically hurting anyone.

Is violence innate? Well, anger and frustration sure as hell are part of the package. So, what do you do with it if you're a baby or a toddler? Anger and its ilk are definitely innate and violence the way I see it, is one of the first and fairly common reactions to that extremely uncomfortable emotion.
post #133 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
i don't agree. i don't think there's always an underlying need. sometimes young toddlers hit just for the sake of hitting.....especially older babies. i've been smacked many times in the face and it wasn't violent, but it sure was entertaining to the hitter. they weren't modeled this by anyone....and they weren't hitting me because they lacked in having their needs met....it was just something new they had discovered & were trying it out. it's so funny to see mom's face when i hit it & hear her yelp



Wait! Did you meet my son?!?! I just posted about this in Toddlers (my son hitting).

It's so frustrating!!

And...to answer the OP...I do believe that children need boundaries. Gentle, loving boundaries - yes, but boundaries nonetheless.
post #134 of 135
how else can you teach someone to think inside the box, you need to put them inside a box. </sarcasm>
post #135 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by eloise24 View Post
Having boundaries doesn't mean you aren't GD. If you don't allow your child to run in the street, you are setting a boundary. If you don't want your child smashing the china on the floor, it's a boundary. If you don't give your child boundaries, you are telling them that they can do anything they want, and they probably will feel insecure, that you don't love them enough to keep them from harm.

So yes, you can have boundaries and still GD. Just enforce the boundaries with gentleness and love.
completely agree!! Children need some boundaries, they need to be kept safe, keep others safe, ect. Within appropriate boundaries....... and gd kids will thrive. Remember there are a lot of things you can say yes to, not everything is a no.
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