Statistics anyone? - Page 11

[pageta]

I think some people are more able to go on faith than others. What facts I may need in order to feel educated and informed enough to give birth may be completely insufficient for someone else. At the same time, there are those who talk about faith and going with their instincts, and I wish them well, but privately they scare me. We all have our own comfort levels. I am sure there are people who can do things on faith alone that I could never do (because I need a few more facts). And I don't need an oxygen tank on hand in order to feel comfortable having a UC, but someone else might.

[paxye]

Another thing I dont understand is this concept of preferring a good birth over a live thriving baby, did I get that right or did I missunderstand?

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

This was addressed in posts #172-176, 181, and 183.

and post 194

Originally Posted by Pageta

I think some people are more able to go on faith than others. What facts I may need in order to feel educated and informed enough to give birth may be completely insufficient for someone else. We all have our own comfort levels. I am sure there are people who can do things on faith alone that I could never do (because I need a few more facts). And I don't need an oxygen tank on hand in order to feel comfortable having a UC, but someone else might.

I agree with you pageta...
I wouldn't get an oxygen tank either but I will inform myself on as much as I can on certain things (but surely not as much as some beleive is "necessary").
I also think that every woman should go into labour with a good extent of knowledge on the process and take back the birth experience for themselves. OB, midwife or UC...

As for putting all the trust in a god... not happening here... I can't trust something I don't believe in .. I'm an atheist

[paxye]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

Completely off topic, but do you ever wish you had the computer skills to check other user's IP addresses?

Yeah.. I wish it was public like on another board I frequent...

[LittleToes]

Wow there have been so many replies! I'm wiped out since my battery died at the store, and I was bymyself with the kids. Im more tired than usual because of the new baby growing in my tummy

Hmmm, I have to admit I had not read the entire thread, its really long and I dont have that much time. Thank you for the reference points, however I havent had time to read them yet. I actually want to read the entire thread first.

This is a topic very near to my heart, considering I am not brave enough to UC- but very dearly want to. I am insecure considering the problems I have had delivering my last baby, baby did need oxygen and I unexpectedly hemmorrhaged two hours after baby was born. I was nursing baby, cooing with my husband at our beautiful new child. I felt so perfect and happy, but then whoosh- all this blood started soaking my clothing.

I will reply later after reading the entire thread, like tomorrow.

As for the IP address, you can ask the moderators to check

[JesseMomme]

I guess as far as the issue of PPH,a m I an anomaly for handling it on my own with out herbs, without even taking a bite of placenta (which was next on the agenda) without anyone but Dh to get me stuff like blankets to pile up and water to drink...

I think that if there was someone else there I would have been more like, "wow I'm dizzy. Now what?"

Originally Posted by me

In a nutshell I laid down quickly, put baby on the breast and got my feet up. A few hours later I passed a major clot, and the bleeding ceased immediately.

[RiceMomma]

I am one of those UCer's who posted about trusting our instincts. I just want to say that I'm not against educating ourselves. DH and I read a lot and researched a great deal before our UC, but looking back, I am amazed at how much I knew was going to happen before hand. We did prepare for PPH, even though I knew it wasn't going to happen. My point was that our instincts can tell us so much, more than I realized, more than anyone can prepare for. There is no way to prepare for every single thing that could possibly happen. That is what is wrong with obstetrics, everyone is so freaked out about what could happen. Anything could happen. Sure. But I have this sneaking suspicion that our instincts can give us a little hint.

At the same time, a MW can't really rely on a woman's intuition- she has to rely upon her training, which is really inferior to intuition, but the problem is that so many women have lost touch with their intuition. I hope I'm making sense. I am not advocating that no one be educated and no one be trained and that everyone just go out and UC. I just think it is ideal when a woman can rely upon her instincts and UC.

We really didn't go into it with the attitude of "We can handle any emergency as good as a DR or MW," but rather having enough knowledge to identify when it was time to get help.

[RiceMomma]

I know this is a really long thread, but there have been so many topics discussed, I really don't understand why someone hops on here and sounds off about so many of them without reading the thread and making an effort to understand when has been expressed. This whole idea about a good birth being more important then the health of the baby is totally erroneous. I think it's probably safe to say that NO ONE here feels that way.

Anti-UCers and Non-UCers, honestly, if you don't want to UC, don't. No one is going to the other boards to convince you to do so. If you're interested, do everyone a favor and take some time and read and post your questions on a new thread. Is it really a good idea to weigh in on the hot topics in your very first post on MDC?

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by RiceMomma

At the same time, a MW can't really rely on a woman's intuition- she has to rely upon her training, which is really inferior to intuition, but the problem is that so many women have lost touch with their intuition.

I think they don't believe in intuition, and so don't know to look for it. And if any little bit exists, it's obscured because the mother is relying on the midwife to guide her, or because she is distracted by the midwife's guidance.

[2bluefish]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

I think they don't believe in intuition, and so don't know to look for it. And if any little bit exists, it's obscured because the mother is relying on the midwife to guide her, or because she is distracted by the midwife's guidance.

Interesting, alot of midwives I know put alot of stock in their *own* intuition as experienced "wise women" trained midwives. But it seems to be hard to cultivate a trust in the *mother's* intuition - especially if that mother is a "primp".

I asked to transport during my labor, I meant it (but was not transported) and I believe I knew instinctually that I was not healthy - a day and a half later I was in the ER on Halloween with an infection. I would hate to trade that lovely waterbirth I had, but it would have been nice to get that round of anitbiotics immediately so I wouldn't have needed to spend 3 days in the hospital hooked up to an IV. But for me it was one of those - you can win for loosing moments. Prolonged rupture of membranes, prolonged labor, I probably would have gotten a c-section if I had transported, so I guess in that light IV antibiotics are a small price to pay. Better to avoid all that nonsense to begin with though!

[doula mary]

Little toes,
Dont know what happened to you last post??

Check out "UC questions"..for some UC birth stories. I bet the ladies here would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Mary

[rajahkat]

I think they don't believe in intuition, and so don't know to look for it.

I don't know about THEY, I don't really know any midwives IRL, but in Anne Frye's book~ Holistic Midwifery (a textbook for midwives) she explicitly states that the mother's intuition is a very important indicator as to how the labor is progressing. I wish I could remember exactly how it was worded......

So, the idea IS there, even beyond our little freaky fringe. It is in midwifery textbooks at least! I wonder how much is lost not because of self-centered care-providers or even care-providers who are taught that observable data provides more accurate indicators, but because (like you said) the mothers rely on the midwives to guide them.....and the midwives grow accustomed to filling that role.

Kat

[josephine_e]

! it took me almost two hours (slow reader, heh), but i finally have read this entire thread.

thank you all so much for existing! thank you for inspiring me and motivating me. thank you for reminding me and supporting me.

i think this thread contains so many wonderful points of view. even the arguing was helpful. at first, i felt threatened, scared -- as i'm sure those who were involved probably did -- because the UC forums has been my HAVEN! nobody but dh is open to this topic IRL, and i've really been needing to have the community here. i'll admit that at first, reading the conflict a few pages back put me on edge. it served as a reminder that by choosing to live our lives based on our *radical* ideals and beliefs, we are making ourselves very vulnerable -- even here. still, after reading through the whole thing, i feel so empowered!

something i've been dealing with lately is the dichotomy between OTHER'S opinions of me, and my opinion of myself. i've been discovering that much of my mental prattle has much more to do with other's opinions. actually, i have quite a lot of trust in myself, my beliefs and my decisions. so what if someone else doesn't understand and doesn't care to and goes on to have an opinion? i'm slowly learning to separate how others feel about me and how i feel about myself -- and behave accordingly, not letting the fear of judgment make my decisions or frame my demeanor.

the reference to loss really brought this home for me. dh and i talked about the possibility of loss during my pregnancy with ds. we both felt confident that we would rather take that responsibility than give it to the hospital. ... still, we all know what it would "look" like to people on the outside. that is, if we take responsibility and something goes wrong, well, it's all our fault and we didn't do the right thing by our baby. during that pregnancy, i was very confident in myself, my self-esteem was at an all time high and i was ready to battle the world! however, this pregnancy i'm going through a lot of emotional turmoil, battling depression and low self esteem. i've just realized that dealing not only with my responses to loss, but others' also is something i'm really going to have to work with throughout this pregnancy. because i know that if something went wrong in a hospital, i would have a much harder time forgiving myself, because i would realize that some of my motivation for going to the hospital was based on what "they" might think, kwim? whereas, if something happened at home, if i was left alone to heal, i would have a much easier time with it; however, if i was, during that vulnerable time, made to feel "bad" for my choice, what that would do to my healing process would be very detrimental! this is why i need to really concentrate on this for the next six months. so that i can go with my heart and mind (birth at home and only transfer if i feel it's necessary), stay open to the fact that my baby could (possibly) die, and be prepared for the emotional fall out that would be associated, not with my feelings toward my decisions, myself or my baby, but the outside opinions of others.

does any of that make sense? ... i'm about to cry just thinking about it.

anyway, thank you all again! this board helps me to not only get through my life in the easy/pain free way, but to really face the challenges presented to me in awareness.

[shell024]

Holy cow this is an old thread, I remember reading and following it all last year as the page #s increased!

And yes, tons of good info/points/arguments among the pages...

[eminencejae]

Originally Posted by boheime

I believe the OP was looking for ACCURATE statistics. Look at what is actually in those articles. They don't follow scientific procedure. They assume many unknown things.

Both of my children were born UC. I am married and we filled out the birth certificate. We included Apgar scores (and both of the birth certificates - for two different states as we moved in between the births of our children - required Apgar scores to be valid). So, according to that study, some unknown attendant delivered our children. No. Do you realize how skewed these "stats" are?

The MO study is just as flawed. Did you realize that lay midwives are illegal in the state of MO. Because of this, many births are filed as UC in order to protect the lay midwife. So, right there you can throw out any stats in this study as they are inaccurate.

We researched birth extensively for two years prior to conceiving. Based on my research, I know that giving birth unassisted is the safest way for me, my children, and my family. Dh and I know the signs of a true emergency. We know what to do in case of an emergency. We know how to recognize signs of a possible true emergency so that we have time to get help. We know what is really an emergency and what is not. There is nothing that a midwife or doctor can do to help in our home that we are not capable of doing ourselves.

Did I have birth experience before our first child? Not really. Besides some farm animals, I had never been to a birth. I am intelligent, well educated, well researched, and know how to listen to both my body and baby in order to have the best possible outcome.

Frankly, anyone who makes a living from birth is going to be against UC. UC empowers women. It empowers couples. It empowers families. It puts so called birth "professionals" out of work. That just is not going to go over well. They like having a job, paying their bills, and eating food. They like job security. So of course, they are going to tell a woman that she NEEDS them. Her baby NEEDS them. The birth WON'T BE SAFE without them. Would you expect a vaccine manufacturer to tell you that vaccines might cause problems? No.

:
The last paragraph was just was I was hoping to say; but so much better than I could've done, the entire response is great!

To go even deeper than that: I beleive that The fact is, we as UCers are weighing alot more than physical health or mere statistics-which are basicly a physical thing anyway. What should be considered is the spiritual health that depends on our personal birth experiences. (and how the treatment of birthing mothers, mentally and emotionally, -are effected spiritually)
Are we passionate and defensive of our rights wether legal or just plain possible judgement of right/wrong? Absolutely!!! And proud of it!
I ensured my mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual, health by taking the responsibiliity of birthing upon myself. I beleive that I gained from it, an enlightenment spiritually and in all those aspects that so many women lose out on and will never be able to have. It has begun to change the way I think about and do everything in my life.
Of course I'm passionate! I experienced all of the hormones and feelings I was meant to! That can't be measured by any statistic because UCing goes behond that which is of a physical nature. It includes all that there is!
Because I UCed I'm complete. Feeling complete and spiritually/emotionally healthy has been said to impact a person's physical health, so now we go back to even more of the physiological benefits of UCing- that most probably proceed far after birth. I'd like to add that my statement is not about any religiously motivated decision. Religion and spirituality are entirely different things to me.(I would NOT even consider the act of a religion making regulations for people's health -and the followers complying with those regulations, as decision making) Because of my beleif of that; I don't beleive that in that situation a woman has any freedoms, therefore it's not a complete UC. My spirituality as well as my philosophical beleifs motivate me. Not religion. I beleive that religion is dangerous. I don't go by any one elses book of rules and regulations - or at least as little as possible. I also beleive that in relation to the specifics of the study mentioned that was refering to a religious group, and corresponding high death rates -that put UCing in a negative light- it's entirely possible that the cause could've been that the controlling environment-which spills into mental/emotional distress and possibly lack of education as well- (Because self education is part of freedom) Several factors in the environment surrounding the births are what may have caused higher rates of complications/deaths. That's assuming those statistics are even correct, which I doubt as well. Intentional and thoughtful, planned, UCers can not be lumped into groups of highly controlled people, wether it be drugs or religion that may be considered a factor in their decision or thought to be what their motivation was to supposedly UC.
It is not really possible to study a birthing woman's confidence, safety, comfort level, therefore it would be very complicated to study and pin down numbers of supposedly 'safe' births. Birth and death happen it's simply as safe as the perception of the whole thing. Especially to the woman is birthing. It's personal. It can't be broken down in a study. Control of one's own birth has to become the norm to be proven either way.

Oh yeah, I also don't think that one out of a hundred is bad... That's one percent. some people trust birth control/profilactics to 'protect' them with a very similar percentage. How can one out of a hundred be bad? It's all about personal perspective.

[georgia]

I have closed this thread to new posts, but it will remain on the boards for search purposes. Please feel free to start a new thread if there's something new that needs to be discussed as it pertains to support, encouragement and community surrounding unassisted birth. Do keep in mind the MDC User Agreement. Thanks!