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What did they do before c-sections? - Page 2

post #21 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leilalu
Well, I would've surely died. I was breech and had the cord wraped around my neck at birth, several times. my mom did not die, and I did not die.
Cord around the neck does not strangle a baby, it's a very safe place for the cord, and is incredibly common. I had my own cord around my neck twice and my entire body (crotch to shoulder) once. My daughter had hers around her neck, too. In fact almost everyone I know had a cord around the neck... is the only reason for death the breech thing?
post #22 of 104
My mom was in HARD labor at least 2 days. I was NOT coming out. Why so quick to judge? I have done my reasearch, I know all about the statistics, etc etc. No, breech is/was not the only concern
post #23 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leilalu
My mom was in HARD labor at least 2 days. I was NOT coming out. Why so quick to judge? I have done my reasearch, I know all about the statistics, etc etc. No, breech is/was not the only concern
I'm not judging, I'm asking... because that's confusing to me. Cord around the neck isn't deadly, so I couldn't figure out why it meant you would have died. Although lots of women mistakenly do believe that it is deadly because they think of fetal necks the same way as adult necks.
(For the record, I'm not speaking out of ignorance or lack of experience either. I was in hard labour for 44 hours as well)
post #24 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot
I'm not judging, I'm asking... because that's confusing to me. Cord around the neck isn't deadly, so I couldn't figure out why it meant you would have died. Although lots of women mistakenly do believe that it is deadly because they think of fetal necks the same way as adult necks.
(For the record, I'm not speaking out of ignorance or lack of experience either. I was in hard labour for 44 hours as well)
Well, I guess I should really say I am not sure. That's just the thing with birth, it is mysterious and wild. One never knows what will happen. But to say that someone cannot die from the cord being wrapped around, well, that is just not for you to say. At the hands of an unskilled country doctor, maybe death was immenant.All throughout history select women have died in childbirth for one reason or another, or their children. Some women are not so lucky.My grandmother died in childbirth with her 15th child, because of a strawberry tumor on her brain. Totally irrelevant to the situation.
post #25 of 104
The thing about a modern c-section is that it's a birth choice. What I mean by that is that, a c-section is the choice when the risks of vaginal birth are too great--either from the mom's perspective, or (more often, sadly) from the doctor's. I think this accounts for nearly all the c-sections that occur. Yes--it is possible to birth breech babies vaginally in many cases. But for some women, the risk of things going wrong is too great. It comes down to the balance between the risk of each choice.

I'll elaborate: My grandmother, who was a tiny little woman, under 5 feet and less than 100 pounds when she was first pregnant, labored for three days to get my mother out--finally was able to while straddling her father's lap. Two doctors were called in during the labor--unheard-of in rural Appalachia in 1929--and they estimated my mother to weigh over 11 pounds. They had to resuscitate my mother and my grandmother took weeks to recover and was horribly torn (and their sewing job was so Frankenstein-esque that she never had sex without pain again). Now, when I went into labor, both times I was in good positions and pushed for many hours, and the baby didn't go past my un-flexing pelvic bones. So I wonder: Was my grandmother's problem the same? Would I have had to push for days to get my babies out? Probably. But that was too much of a risk for me. Yes, it might have been possible, but it nearly killed both my grandmother and my mother. It was entirely possible my mother could have been dead at the end of that process. So it's not worth trying and trying and trying for an exceptionally difficult vaginal birth--a c-section is the better risk to me.

Now, as to the OP's question, I agree that "too small" is a ridiculous assessment in most cases. But there are cases where moms would die if not for c-sec, as OnTheFence pointed out. I for one am quite grateful we have the option in these modern times. I just wish it wasn't used quite so frequently and cavalierly by both docs and moms.
post #26 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chumani

You may want to gently introduce your friend to books/websites that will educate and inform her for future childbirth choices.

Best wishes,
Sarah
I don't really think there is much point in that. I would do that if she hadn't just had her fourth c-section. I think at this point it would be more risky for her to try to have a vaginal delivery.
post #27 of 104
The last time we went to India I met a man whose wife died in childbirth because the baby got stuck and couldn't come out. They were in a small village and had no access to medical care. They had a midwife but they still couldn't save her or the baby.

Dh's mother and aunt were delivered by csection in India in the 50's. They were breech and would not come out, so they drove them to the hospital and took them out.

Even in my great-grandma's day they had csections. They were done at home in extreme emergencies, without anethesia. They also would, in some cases, cut the baby out piece by piece to save the mother.

In the old days death from childbirth was very high-- I think 1 in 3?
post #28 of 104
Or one could always crush the baby's skull.
post #29 of 104
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post #30 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma
In the old days death from childbirth was very high-- I think 1 in 3?
I don't think that all of history has had a maternal death rate that high, would have to research to say for sure, but there have definitely been times when it rose for different reasons. Malnutrition being high on the list, and of course the era when OB management of birth began w/o knowledge of how bacteria caused infection. I think that's the root of our current cultural attitude that birth is hideously, tremendously dangerous and needs to be managed into submission or all women could die... our great grandmothers who saw the effects of that era would surely have been very frightened by them, and probably added their voices to the OB claims that birth is terribly dangerous, and handed down that belief to their daughters.
post #31 of 104
Yes, of course babies and moms died in childbirth before there were c-sections. A transverse baby, for instance, simply cannot be born vaginally. Many of those deaths were due to things like infection, though--antibiotics, much as they're abused now, did a lot to improve fetal and maternal mortality rates.

Citing individual cases of babies who would have/might have died, however, is not compelling evidence to me in the face of c/s rate that's around 30% (and up to 70% in some hospitals/areas). The vast majority of those c-sections are NOT saving women/babies who otherwise would have died. They are, however, making doctors lives more convenient, making lots of money for hospitals, and convincing more and more women that vaginal birth is just too scary/painful/inconvenient for them to go through.

*Most* women will not grow babies too big for their pelvises (providing they're not lying flat on their backs, immobilized); *most* breech babies can be born vaginally without problems (or rather, they could be if birth professionals still learned how to deliver breech babies); twins and even triplets *can* be born vaginally! And a baby whose due date is at an inconvenient time for mom or doctor can almost certainly be born vaginally. Childbirth is not without risk and c-sections save some lives...but c-sections have risks, too, and also cost some lives.
post #32 of 104
While on topic of breech babies, did anyone see the article, I think in the 'green journal' (ACOG's journal) tearing the big breech study apart? Showed all the errors and sloppy data that lead to the conclusion? Pretty bold for a mainstream OB to write such a critique.

I've heard from experienced OB's that the greatest indicator of whether a breech baby should be born vaginally or by c/sec is labor progress. If the mom is progressing nicely, it will be a straightforward delivery. If it is not, better to go to c/sec than to try augmentation of labor or assisted delivery. Sounds sane to me.
post #33 of 104
chava, that's very interesting. Makes a lot of sense, particularly for moms who've had more than one baby already. First-timers can be long anyway, yk?
post #34 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leilalu
Well, I would've surely died. I was breech and had the cord wraped around my neck at birth, several times. my mom did not die, and I did not die.
That's not a very serious complication, a cord prolapse would be.
post #35 of 104
Great Thread!! I was just thinking about this the other day.... what did they do before c-sections if the baby couldn't/wouldn't come out. I wondered if the mother and/or baby died, or what procedures they did.

Cause I'm struggling with my 3 c-sections 1st and last due to so called FTP. I am postitive that my babies would have came out eventually if there wasn't such pressure to section after so much time had passed.
post #36 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by huggerwocky
That's not a very serious complication, a cord prolapse would be.
Actually, you weren't there, so who is to say?
post #37 of 104
If I had not had an emergency csection my baby (and quite possibly me too) would have died. It is a necassary evil. imo.
post #38 of 104
Well, I find it VERY hard to believe that the death rate from human birth would be one in three. The human species as it is today has been around for, what, 1.5 million years. This is LONG before the use of complicated techniques to get babies out. Many women probably did labor for days (and sucessfully birthed), many women and babies probably did die, but I'm willing to bet that many more survived than just 2/3. After all we are a really sucessfull species overall. But what do I know, maybe even more than 1/3 died and the death rate lowered over time because pelvi became better for birth.
I agree that cesareans save lives. I don't think it's that many lives though.
post #39 of 104
There were many techniques some great some not so great to help a baby come that was "stuck" for what ever reason. Most of those ways were lost when dr's took over with the births. Some prolly a very good thing they were lost while others could be used today with great success without cutting a mom open. One way being someone would push down on the baby to make it come out. Sometimes it worked and the baby and mother survived, and then there were the times that either the baby, mother or both didnt make it. I think mortality for the babies and mothers was pretty high. I (family memebers back in the 40's)know of 2 woman and one baby not making it thru child birth. With one she bleed todeath after the birth but the baby lived(fil) the other her and the baby both were lost (my greatgrandma) due to the same thing blood loss.

I am thankfull there is help for woman out there now thru section and I beleive some are 100% needed but there are many done that should not have been. I do not beleive in section being done just cause the mom wants it unless there is a true medical need for it. If it was dont that way I think the section rate would be very very low. But there is always gonna be dr who will do a section just so they can get that big ol payday I have been told some sections can cost as much as $20,000 there is a lot of incentive there for some dr to jump the gun.
post #40 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheFence
I think its a misnomer to think that all breech babies were born vaginally and alive. Some did die, some died being born vaginally, and some got hung and the mother got her bottom butchered. Its easy in a an era of time where we do have medical intervention to say how wrong it is.
Not all vertex babies were born alive either, and not all mothers survived childbirth. C/S can and do save lives in some situations. The problem is that medical interventions are overused today.
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