Threats in disguise!!!

[LunaMom]

Mamaduck's thread about consequences vs. punishment made me think of this somewhat related question.

Do you give your children choices as a part of your discipline techniques, and do they ever sound like this:

"You have a choice - put your coat on and we can go to the playground, or don't put your coat on and we stay home."

Is this really a choice? After all, the desired activity is to go to the playground, and it is probably clear that one "choice" is more acceptable than the other from the tone of voice we use. Isn't this the same as saying, "If you don't put your coat on we're not going to the playground"?

I'm not saying this is a terrible thing to do - I've certainly done this myself sometimes - and it sounds much nicer to the child, and it does let them know that their refusal to cooperate will result in unpleasant consequences. But calling this "giving a choice" - I just don't know if that's accurate, KWIM? Because it's really just an attempt to manipulate the child into making the "correct" choice. Thinking about this makes me realize a couple of things:

One, my kid is too smart for this stuff by now. It might have worked when she was two, but by the time a child is three or four, she knows this isn't really a choice, and that it is manipulative and insulting to her intelligence.

Two, it's better to be more creative and use the choice as a distraction from the power struggle your child is trying to create, so maybe we should say, "It's time to put on your coat so we can go to the playground. Would you like to wear your red hat or your blue hat?" Or, "Shall we go to the playground in the park or the one by the school?"

Thoughts? I don't intend this to be a huge deal, just an interesting discussion!


Edited to add: Oops, maybe this should be in Gentle Discipline?

[journeymom]

Interesting. I know that with my ds, 3 3/4 y.o, if we're disagreeing and I say "It's time to put on your coat so we can go to the playground. Would you like to wear your red hat or your blue hat?" Or, "Shall we go to the playground in the park or the one by the school?" he'll simply say " I don't want to do either of those things!" So with him the choices I used to give him don't work anymore. So at that point I might say, "Will you put your coat on or should I put it on for you?" That is, if the issue is important enough. I try to pick and choose which issues to stand firm on. Lots of times I just let it slide.

Besides, isn't the above example also manipulation? You're giving your child a choice (hat colors), but that choice has nothing to do with the core issue (ds doesn't want to wear coat, you want him to). So in a way that's deception.

I've found with my ds he is happier to cooperate when given a choice, but sometimes it has to be forced. If it's something that we have to do ("Time to get your shoes on so we can go get big sister from school") than yes, I'll be a nice and unauthoritative about it as I can, but he still has to get his shoes on.

My brain is fried. I know I'm not making sense here! I should come back later and try again!

[Pigpen]

Guilty. I am in the process of trying to figure out a better way to deal w/situations like this. This is a tough one for me because I have a 2 & 4 year old, at totally different levels of "cooperation", getting ready to go anywhere is almost always difficult. I want to have more fun with them and feel like I'm just working all the time trying to get them to do what I want them to. I'm trying to figure out when to let them lead and how to let them, when possible. I welcome any suggestions

[mamaduck]

I try to use "When-Then" statements for these situations. With the coat example, I would say "When your coat is on, then we'll go to the park." Then if we were running out of time, I would add, "When your coat is on we'll go to the playground, but we only have a little bit of time left and we can't go at all if we run out of time."

Though, to be honest, if my kid won't wear a coat I usually just carry it with us. Even today in the sleet.

The coat example isn't the best example for me, I guess, because I'm sure there are other situations where I do use veiled threats, so to speak. Other than the bedtime example in the other thread, I can't think of one off hand.

Sometimes it isn't a threat though. "You can stand up and walk with me, or I can carry you." I mean obviously, you can't let your child spend the afternoon laying on the floor in the cereal aisle at the grocery store. Or, "You can wash your hands for dinner or I can wash your hands for dinner.

Or the carseat -- "We can go if you ride in your carseat. If you don't, we can't go anywhere." This is a TRUE statement, not a manipulative one in ANY sense.

[Marlena]

Re the coat example ("You have a choice - put your coat on and we can go to the playground, or don't put your coat on and we stay home."), I do do this with dd (21 months). I don't view it as manipulative. Rather, I'll phrase the issue like this (in the hypothetical where she didn't want to put her coat on): "If you don't put on your coat (more likely, her shoes!), then we can't go to the park. We'll go to the park as soon as you put on your coat (or allow me to put on your shoes)." I don't see how that's manipulative. Yes, I suppose in the bare sense it's using a carrot and a stick, but that's missing the point. If it were truly manipulative, then it would be a scenario such as "dd, you can [insert some activity that dd hates but has nothing to do with safety or necessities for the park or what have you] and then we'll go to the park, or else we'll just stay home." That's more nefarious, in my book, and should probably be avoided altogether.

[teachma]

LunaMom, I like this topic. I think when my son was younger, I used to provide threats disguised as choices, such as your coat-park example. But I realized that somehow, they never yeilded results we were happy with. We both wound up miserable, and for what purpose? So that I could exert some parenting power over my little toddler to show him I was in control? I guess I learned rather quickly not to do that because it didn't work for us. And actually, choices don't work very well for us at all, come to think of it. Almost inevitably, when I offer a choice, he will say either, "I choose neither of those," or "I don't like those choices." If I say. "Pick a hat. Which one would you like?" his response is ALWAYS, "I would like neither of them." Usually, I just muster up a whole lotta enthusiasm and tell him what we're gonna do. For example: "Okay, let's get on your coat! We're going to the park!" Fewer choices (or no choices) usually work best with my boy. I guess for each parent, it's all about learning how your own child likes to be guided/disciplined throughout he day, and for me, the desired consequence is always mutual peacefulness and happiness.

[sozobe]

I guess I see it only as a "threat" if the choice is not a choice at all. I.e., if I give the choice of going to the park or putting her shoes on, and she doesn't put her shoes on, so I pick her up and put them on her, and march her out the door, that's one thing. But if she doesn't put her shoes on, and I then mildly say, "OK, we'll stay home", and then go start a new activity at home, that's something else.

(I've done this, maybe once or twice; she quickly learned natural consequences and was more inclined to put her shoes on next time.)

[Kirsten]

I understand the underlying issue of manipulation/threat/etc. I think if you think about it, lots we do as parents involves manipulating kids - they need to learn how to function socially in our society. Sure, we model good behavior. But sometimes for safety's sake (like another poster pointed out about the car seat) or politeness or whatever, we need to manipulate/force them to do something that is not their first choice or original impulse. I don't see the problem with that myself. I am a parent. It is my job to help them learn. Some may disagree with that.

On the specific coat issue, I use "do you want to wear it or carry it?" I sometimes mention "it's cold out" before the choice. I of course model my best coat wearing behavior! And me carrying around their coats is not generally an option I agree to. They can wear it, carry it, or go without one - even the two year old. Unless you are leaving for a weekend ski trip, these options will work. One trip to the grocery store or wherever without a coat will not hurt them. No words at all from you about "you should have brought it" - completely ignore the issue. If they mention being cold, be sympathetic - but don't preach the issue of remembering it next time! Let the memory of being cold on that day be what makes them remember next time! It does not take more than one or two times I promise! We learned this in Love and Logic classes and it works so well with our kids. I think it is respectful - you give them credit for having a brain and making a choice. They then live with the positive or negative consequences of that choice. And they learn. Not because you made them or reminded them but because they know for themselves from past experience. The key to this is not to talk about it why they should have or aren't they sad they chose not to - just bite your lip and let them make the connection between their choice and the consequence. This teaches much better than lectures from us parents!
When dd1 was 4, she didn't want to get dressed for preschool. We had to leave at a certain time to get there. She went out to the car in her jammies and bare feet - with clothes and shoes in a bag. You have never heard such hollering from a kid! Got dressed mighty quick in the parking lot of the school. Didn't give me any grief about getting dressed after that. Some may think that is wrong - would nagging and fighting with her every day for years be better? I was not mad on that day (I actually had to stifle laughter all through the drive - she was saying some ridiculous things) but just matter of fact. It is time to go. Here are your clothes and shoes in this bag. You will have another chance to get dressed when we get there.
Kirsten

[Chelly2003]

A lot of parents probably have their minds made up already as to what THEY want to do.
I use this type of question myself, but I'm always prepared for the reply or response I don't want. I am also prepared to STAY HOME if the coat doesn't get put on...... and stay home we do!
I've often had DS change his mind, once I sit down, take off my coat or put my purse down etc..

Chelly

[mamaduck]

I have to be very careful about this sort of thing. I have 2 kids -- and if I say "We can't go if your coat isn't on," then the other kid might well loose out, and that isn't fair.

[LunaMom]

Thanks, everyone, for sharing your thoughts!

Once again, to clarify, I don't think this type of "manipulation" is a bad thing to do; I just question whether it is right for us to refer to it as "giving choices." Those who are strongly into TCS and "non-coercive" parenting might disagree, but I think that it is absolutely necessary to lay down the law as a parent on occasion. Heh heh - I think this whole thread may stem from overhearing my dh give these "fake choices" all the time, and if I tell him he's being manipulative (I have a really bad habit of backseat parenting), he'll say, "But I'm giving her a CHOICE!" : Men.

Mamaduck, excellent point about having more than one child. I'd love to hear what you do in those situations...aha, maybe yet another thread?

[mamaduck]

I just muddle through. That is about the extent of it.

[sozobe]

LunaMom, I'd written those exact words about laying down the law in my post last night, but was tired and worried that I wasn't coherent enough to make what I feared would be a controversial statement. I agree that there are things that just aren't negotiable, and that such firmness is necessary and beneficial to the parent-child relationship.

mamduck, yeah, it's got to be much more complicated with two.

[BathrobeGoddess]

I guess the ultimate goal of giving out children choices is to help teach them to make good choices in the future, when we can't conrtol what their choices are. But in doing this manupulative questioning are we instead handicaping our kids? In life we always have a choice, of course, but as adults, often we don't like the things we have to chose between. I guess what I am saying is that we, as parents, need to make the choices we give our children "real" choices, not token choices that don't really have any power or consequences. Children must be able to take responsibility for the choices they make and the consequences that occur because of them. This is something I worry about all the time.

[Linda in Arizona]

I would take the coat with me and then when the child realized it was cold, help them put it on. This is more work in the short run because it mean holding on to things, stopping in the middle, etc, but in the long run it is more effective because kids learn to self regulate.

I remember a trip to the park when my youngest was 6 months old and my oldest was barely 2. It was time to leave and my older DD didn't want to put on shoes. I explained that the pavement was VERY hot and would burn her feet. She didn't want shoes on. So I picked up everything, (baby in sling, diaper bag, blacket, DD shoes, etc.) and we started for the car. As soon as we got to the pavement my DD wanted her shoes, so we stopped, put everything down, and put them on. Yes it was a heck of a lot more work for me BUT from then on she believed me about shoes and hot pavement.

If you manipulate your child into wearing a coat (or shoes or whatever) then you haven't taught them anything for the next time. You will have to manipulate them over and over and over.

If you give them oppotunities to learn WHY we do these things then eventually they will take care of themselves. This is our job as parents -- to teach our kids to take care of themselves.

Also -- lecturing doesn't help. Give the information, help when they need it, but let them figure things out for themselves.

My kids are now 4 and 6 and many of their friends are still fighting with their mommies are things like jackets.

"Punished by Rewards" by Kohn is a GREAT book!

[carmen veranda]

Kristen~biting ones lip is the hard part here for me. Ouch. It wants to come out sometimes!!!

Mammduck~ I agree it's harder with two. How to give one the choice of "not going" when the other wanted to go so much? It feels very manipulative to say, "Then NONE of us can go," and the older girl starts to whine and get sore at the younger one. Then the younger one puts on the coat (or whatever) even though she did NOT choose it really, just went along so big sister and mom would not be growly. This is kind of a stuck place for me.

Linda~ I just am not able to carry everything for everything for everyone. I see this as just opposite of what you said in the end, for them to take care of themselves. I am not being critical. This is an issue for me. I do not like being the pack horse. I will frequently get things together, then everyone must carry their own. If they don't carry it, put it down, whatever, that is the consequence if they don't have it when we get there.

[mamaduck]

How about, "Would you rather carry your coat or wear it?

[Kirsten]

We often use "do you want to wear your coat or carry it?" Leaving it home is an unspoken choice and it has been taken - but not more than once or twice!

The trouble with telling the child "don't you wish you had your coat now? It's so cold out here. I bet next time you'll wear it, won't you?" is that the child is not thinking about their poor choice or how much they want to remember it next time. They are thinking about what a nag the parent is. Thinking they will never wear a coat again just to spite you. Feeling anger toward the parent keeps them from thinking about the great teaching moment that the cold consequence would have had.

Keeping the lip zipped (on my part) is the VERY hardest part of the whole thing but crucial to it working. Crucial! Sometimes after the kids go to bed and I'm telling dh about something that happened during the day with the kids, he will reply "bet your lip was bleeding" - sometimes not too far from the truth!
Kirsten

[carmen veranda]

Amen to that. ouch.

[mamaduck]

More regarding my "muddling along" with 2 kids -- My oldest child is very reasonable, generous, and mature about these things. He *often* cooperates with what the little guy needs, just because he is a congenial sort of kid. Not always, mind you -- but often.

My little guy is a stubborn, pasionate, and dramatic 2 year old. Sometimes I make the decision to drag him along with a decision against his will. I will word it something like,
"I'm sorry. I know you don't want to do this. But lots of times your big brother does things even though he doesn't want to JUST to be nice to you. So now we are going to do something *he* wants to do, just to be nice. Because families need to be nice."

I dunno. Maybe he'll resent it and be a grouch over it when he is older. Or maybe he'll learn to understand and appreciate what I'm saying.