If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 6

[babygrant]

KEEP IN MIND....the friend I am referring to in my original post and I both live in BC Canada. Circumcision is NOT called that....it is called Genital Mutilation procedure. They will NOT do the surgery for 3 weeks after baby is born so the parent has time to think. To get parents thinking more, they will not circ unless one or both parents is IN the room helping to hold the baby (on the circustraint). You PAY $200 I believe right to the doctor when he/she does it because it is considered a cosmetic procedure. There is a LOT of evidence from myself and her doctor which should have sent red flags for her not to get it done, but she just got it done in order for "it to look nicer". There is no question as to if she got it done because she thought it was the norm. She got it done so her son's penis would LOOK NICER! WTF. So keep that in mind.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by babygrant

To get parents thinking more, they will not circ unless one or both parents is IN the room helping to hold the baby (on the circustraint). You PAY $200 I believe right to the doctor when he/she does it because it is considered a cosmetic procedure.

If they really wanted the parents to "think" about it, they would refuse to do it altogether.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by A&A

If they really wanted the parents to "think" about it, they would refuse to do it altogether.

That's exactly what I was thinking. It is simply rank hypocrisy to call it "genital mutilation procedure" but perform it anyway. If they really believe it is genital mutilation then it is their ethical obligation not to perform it.

Babygrant, your friend is a twit, but the doctors who did this to her son are the lowest of the low. Claiming that "we had no choice, the parents forced us to do it" is about as ethically sound as the defense of, say, prison guards in concentration camps or American soldiers at My Lai. Soldiers -- and doctors, IMO -- are legally and ethically bound not to obey unethical orders.

[wendy1221]

Originally Posted by Pandora114

No, I need to be able to take flippin allergy medications again..*points to siggy* First trimester...seasonal allergies...post nasal drip = Living hell right now...so no amount of cough drop will help.

///also lost my sense of humour somewhere, can you find it for me? thanks..

OT, but I just started taking nettles for my allergies. It doesn't make a huge difference, like allergy meds, but it definitely helps enough that I have a sense of smell again!

And nettles are very nutrient dense, very good for pregnant bodies. I got loose nettles and have been making tea. My MIL takes tincture. Maybe tincture is stronger, not sure. THey don't have tincture around here. If you can find it, try both.

[wendy1221]

I would have a very hard time being friends w/ someone who circ'd if I had spent a lot of time trying to talk them out of it. However, most of my friends who have boys, their boys are circ'd, at least here in the Midwest. My best friend says she did no research at all, her dh wanted it done, she made him take charge of it. He actually circ'd their first son, wasn't allowed by the hospital to do their 2nd. Now that she knows better, she says if she has any more boys, they will not be circ'd.

However, this does not extend to my Jewish friends. I obviously do not agree, but I understand the enormous pressure they feel to circ. Not everyone even wants to go against that kind of pressure, let alone has the courage to do it, even if they do want to.

[Heffernhyphen]

Originally Posted by paquerette

Maybe you can't understand it on this particular issue, but try to imagine some act that you consider truly heinous and unforgiveable. Imagine that a friend committed this act. Would you still desire their company?

I actually did think hard about this before I stepped into this discussion. In fact, I typed and deleted and typed and deleted until almost midnight, trying hard to focus my feelings.


My best friend had an abortion, an abortion of convenience. I don't have words to describe how wrong I find this. But I can't force my morality on anyone else, and I can't discard a friend because we don't agree on every issue, even the big ones. I love her. I love her even though I think she did a terrible thing. That's what being a friend is. That's what unconditional love is.

Of course we do have to judge others merely to survive in the world. When you make the decision not to get in the elevator because a big, scary looking man is already in there, you judged him not to be safe. That's a necessary step we take every day.

But when others judge me, I hope they are also capable of forgiving me.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

But I can't force my morality on anyone else, and I can't discard a friend because we don't agree on every issue, even the big ones.

You made the right decision for YOU when you kept her as a friend. That's what you've decided works for you, and that's great. Similarly, the rest of us have to make choices about friends based on what works for us, as well. For a lot of us on this board, that means ending friendships based on this issue. And I agree with Stella, that it is a visceral feeling more than a conscious choice. A lot of times, I think it is most difficult to see the child of that friend, knowing that you were powerless to stop his infant rape.

[Heffernhyphen]

Infant rape. Wow.

Do you get extra points for using hurtful words like that? I saw The Vagina Monologues and I don't remember her taking such pains to wrap her words in as much ugliness as possible.

[polka123]

I find it harder & hard to be close with people that circ. I just feel that strongly against it. I'm the same way with a few other issues as well.
So there may be a few things in commons but I really need to connect on my core values

[Quirky]

These are ugly words, but circumcision is an ugly act. What else can you possibly call it when a baby is strapped down and part of his penis is sliced away without his consent? How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will? How is it any different than a girl being pinned down by her female relatives as a barber slices away her clitoris? The setting may be different, but the act is the same. It is the violation of another human being's body. It is violent. It is non-consensual. It involves his sex organs.

It is only when we call circumcision what it is -- assault and battery against a baby's genitals -- that we can stop the whitewash and the veil of ignorance that society draws around this heinous act.

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by Quirky

These are ugly words, but circumcision is an ugly act. What else can you possibly call it when a baby is strapped down and part of his penis is sliced away without his consent? How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will? How is it any different than a girl being pinned down by her female relatives as a barber slices away her clitoris? The setting may be different, but the act is the same. It is the violation of another human being's body. It is violent. It is non-consensual. It involves his sex organs.

It is only when we call circumcision what it is -- assault and battery against a baby's genitals -- that we can stop the whitewash and the veil of ignorance that society draws around this heinous act.

So good, it needs to be repeated.

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

Infant rape. Wow.

The quote in my sig says it all. (Even though I've never seen The Vagina Monologues.) Breaking through taboos, and calling things what they really are, is terrifying but crucial.

[Heffernhyphen]

Originally Posted by Quirky

How is it any different from holding a girl or a woman down and sexually assaulting her against her will?

One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

[A&A]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum titled, "Did you circumcise your son and regret it?"

You may find some peace and solace there. Many, many other women on that thread have been in your shoes.....they trusted the so-called "experts." Get mad. Get mad at those doctors for what they told you and what they did to your son. Then turn your anger into action. (Marilyn Milos, the founder of NoCirc, had her own sons circ'd before she learned what a heinous act it is. Now she has saved lots of babies through her work!)

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

The act was still one of violence. Your child suffered the same violation, regardless of your intent.

I'd say, though, that you were victimized, as well, by people who should have known better and advised you wrongly based on out-of-date, false information.

I'm sorry for your experience and I'm sorry for your child's experience.

[OnTheBrink]

My sister knew she was having a boy, did lots of research, and still circumcised my nephew. She was against it, but my BIL (dad) was for it. It was a trade off for a decision that was important to her (baptising in the Catholic Church). I found that very odd and upsetting. I still cringe when I change my nephew's diapers. But my sister is my sister and my best friend. I'll always love her. She'll always be my friend.

Luckily, her second and last baby was a girl!

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

One word: Intent.

Why do you think we parents who chose to circumsize did so? Because we just got our rocks off hurting our kids?

Or could it be because every medical person we talked to, every childcare person we talked to, every parent we talked to advised us that this temporarily painful act could well prevent more painful conditions, including cancer, in the future. If I'm told that circumsizing him could reduce his chances of getting cancer as an adult and I choose not to do it because of my beliefs, isn't that abusive?

I should apologize now for even entering this conversation. I was skimming through New Posts and saw what seemed to be an interesting thread. I feel like I've opened a door and stumbled into a party where I don't belong, like maybe a fund raiser for george bush. Check please!

Unfortunately, intent is not all that matters.

Do you think that the mothers in Africa who hold their daughters down for the barber's blade do so because they want to hurt their daughters? No. It's because they believe that it's cleaner, they're preventing disease, it's harmless, etc. Hanny Lightfoot-Klein, the pioneering researcher on female genital mutilation in Africa, points out the similarities in attitudes towards FGM in Africa and routine infant circumcision in America here. Women who circumcise their daughters intend nothing but the best for them - and yet we do not hesitate to name this harm for what it is.

Also, there are many rapes that occur when the man honestly -- but mistakenly -- believes the woman has consented. He may not intend to rape but he does thinking that the woman has agreed to sex.

I am very sorry if you were misled and/or lied to you by your friends, family, acquaintances, and doctors. The truth is that no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision to prevent any disease - not cancer, not UTIs, not HIV, not any STD. Nothing. The AAP statement on routine infant circumcision calls it "non-therapeutic" i.e. cosmetic. Mothering has an excellent set of well-researched, well-documented articles on circumcision. If a doctor told you circumcision prevents cancer - well, he or she was egregiously misinformed. I and most others here hold doctors and other medical professionals as the truly guilty parties in the circumcision of over a million baby boys in this country every year.

If you read my previous posts in this thread, you will know that I have good friends who circed their older son(s) but left or will leave their younger sons intact. When you know better, you do better. When you know better but you circ a second son - well, then, that's where I draw the line. Two wrongs never make a right.

[OnTheBrink]

Doesn't $200 seem oddly cheap for optional cosmetic surgery? My sister is about to have laser hair removal for her armpits and that's $750! If they are going to do it and charge (as some way of saying they don't "support" it), they should make it some wild fee. Everything else medical is wildly expensive. The tylenol I had after John was born was about $40! Maybe a circumcision should be more like $10,000. But - no - then it would become some messed up status symbol. Oh, I know - maybe they should only do it if you are on state assistance and then no one would want it! So pathetic!

[Bartock]

Originally Posted by babygrant

Village, I am in BC as well.

Me too!!
That's hard, it's not right to circ, but I would be upset they got their boy circ.

[Pandora114]

Originally Posted by OnTheBrink

Doesn't $200 seem oddly cheap for optional cosmetic surgery? My sister is about to have laser hair removal for her armpits and that's $750! If they are going to do it and charge (as some way of saying they don't "support" it), they should make it some wild fee. Everything else medical is wildly expensive. The tylenol I had after John was born was about $40! Maybe a circumcision should be more like $10,000. But - no - then it would become some messed up status symbol. Oh, I know - maybe they should only do it if you are on state assistance and then no one would want it! So pathetic!

That's because they sell the foreskins to cosmetic and biotech companies and make back their "loss"