If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 2

[elmh23]

I would. I have a friend with two circed sons, but she regrets it. All of my other friends with boys, have left them intact. I have more of a problem with CIO, not breastfeeding, spanking. I don't know why, I just do. Maybe because during my pregnancy, if we had a boy, we would have circed (we had a girl) but we were going to breastfeed, co-sleep and gd. Since then, I've done research (imagine that) and am convinced we will not circ a son (still working on dh.)

[Pandora114]

Speaking of the person I ceased to talk to due to her circ decision, I saw her, her DD and her twin boys at the park today. I waved, but that's about it. I looked at those two boys with tears in my eyes knowing what was done to them...

I cant talk to her...and be civil to her....I'd rip her freeking head off....

[eightyferrettoes]

I lose a lot of respect for folks who know better and do it anyway. Typically in the name of "My sweet DH reaaaaally thinks it's important, and I don't want us to fight."

It's such a visceral reaction on my part, but honestly, I'd be equally disgusted if they had their daughters' labia amputated so she'd look "prettier."

[New Mexico Beach]

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

My 3 boys are all intact, but I have several friends with circ'd boys. While I don't agree with circ it's not anything I'd ruin a friendship over. I also would never pierce a baby's ears, but I have friends that do.

[Pandora114]

be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

I'll let some of the more tactful posters of the board handle this comment...

I'm in a very peevish mood right now and might say something that will tick alot of people off...

[eightyferrettoes]

Originally Posted by New Mexico Beach

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

That's just it; it's not a "personal decision" any more than FGM is. It's a violation of a kid's basic human rights, and someone who knows the facts and chooses to do it anyway has just demonstrated a major lack of character in my book.

[paquerette]

To me it depends on the situation. I know someone who is going to do it if her child is a boy and has displayed an absolutely callous disregard about the whole thing. I guess it's not just that, she has a pretty disgusting attitude about a lot of things and that was just all I could take. She won't speak to me anymore anyway, but that's okay because I don't want anything to do with her.

But someone who's a victim of misinformation, nah. Obviously someone who outright regrets it, I would feel bad for and not hold it against them. But I can see how someone might be unable to process the fact that they made a mistake and be in denial about it. I guess I'd have to make a judgement call one situation at a time. I haven't been faced with anything like this, though.

[sophiekat]

I'm struggling with this right now, as a friend of ours had her baby circ'ed. So far I've put off going to see them because I'm disgusted that she & her husband have the information on why its unnecessary, etc. but did it anyway. I know I respect her opinions on parenting stuff a lot less now.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by New Mexico Beach

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

Circumcision isn't a "personal decision" when the person the penis is permanently attached to and will one day be using it sexually has absolutely no say in the matter.

Literally carving your personal preferrences into the genital flesh of your child is---IMO---an abuse of parental power and a violation of the child's basic, human right to his whole body baring medical indications for amputative surgery.

Jen

[alegna]

Originally Posted by New Mexico Beach

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

As other posters have said, it's not a personal decision. I could remain friends (and do) with someone who circs for religious reasons. I don't understand it. I've tried to. I don't. I probably never will. But I don't honestly understand doing ANYTHING for religious reasons. But, if someone had the information (if they didn't and regretted the decision, I could remain friends) and STILL chose to do it for no reason or a misplaced medical reason or to look like daddy or to fit in or because they like it better? Nope. That would be the end of the friendship.

-Angela

[Lula's Mom]

It depends on whether I know they had good information or not. Now that I have all the facts, I hold myself responsible for sharing that info with expecting friends. If they do it anyway, I want nothing more to do with them. Ever. I have an ex-friend that I tried to inform, and after many e-mails back and forth, he cheerfully told me "Sorry, looks like things aren't going to go your way!" That's it, it was all about me (take a look in the mirror, buddy!) He had his son circumcised- in the hospital- for "religious reasons". He's Catholic. If I see anyone who remotely resembles him, or hear his name, I feel revolted.

Of course, I have friends who did it before I knew them, and I don't hold it against them at all. I just figure they were uninformed, as was I at one time.

[cristina63303]

That's such a difficutl one...

Happened to me. It's been over three years and it still haunts me.

She's my best friend and her DS2 and my DS2 were born within 24 hours of each other. We've known each other forever. Have shared so much. We have not stopped being friends. She lives in USA and I in Europe, so we don't get to see each other much.

Boy, now I feel like I need an excuse as to why we're still friends!

I guess I know the social group she moves in. I know her DH is circd. And her DS1 too. And as much as you and I clearly see this as child abuse, as mutilation, as human rights violation, the fact remains that it's socially acceptable so in the mainstream WE are the lacking credibility. It's really unfortunate, but our movement still has its work cut out until more and more people see the light and accept things for what they are.

As pp said, it's a very common mistake in USA

Besides that story, I have two other cases of circ'ers dear to me: my DS1's godmother circed her son ( for the record, this happened after my DS1 was christened) but then it's one of those typical stories: her dad is a doctor and since diabetes runs in her family he convinced her that it was safer to do it so he doesn't get it (ton of crap, I know, but who am I to know more about this than her medical dad?). So again, I can't judge her: she was mislead by an authority who happens to care about her more than anyone else.

The other case is my cousin, a surgeon. We've also always been very close and only recently, on a telcon after an evening of board surfing I asked him whether he thought circ should be done. He said yes because of penis cancer stats! Whatever. My take is that since he was circd, and he had his kids circd some 15 years back, he is not about to now question the whole thing (it's so irrelevant, anyway, just a piece of skin, right???) I'm still trying to figure out how to proceed on that one, but I think my preferred course of action will be to slowly but surely educate my MD cousin and maybe, only maybe have some effect on the advice he may give people on the subject in the future (his field has nothing to do with circ, though, but still).

It really is a tough dilemma.

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by New Mexico Beach

I am surprised at how many of you would not be friends with someone who made a different personal decision than you.

I also would never pierce a baby's ears, but I have friends that do.

Let me clarify. If a man made **A Personal Decision** and got himself circumcised I would have absolutely no problem. Be my guest and surely I would not cut out my friendship with him.

As far as comparing ear piercing to genital cutting...??? Excuse me but I do not understand the logic behind it?

I have a half sister who was born in Santiago de Chile almost 30 years ago. My mom had no idea that in Chile it was a custom to pierce baby girl's ears after she is born. My mom was absolutely furious and got rid of the little ear rings at once. My sister's earlobes healed in few weeks. ( and 2 years ago she actually got her ears pierced).

How on earth can you compare that to what happens in infant circumcision???

[momma2girls]

I have one friend who I can remain friends with b/c I didn't talk to her at the time about circ so it doesn't feel right to me to hold that against her when she may not have known any better. Now my other friend I did speak with her about circ and gave her websites and things to look at and do the research and she never did and then proceeded to circ her son even after me asking her to let her son make that decision for himself. It has been incredibly difficult to deal with her but I have to since we work closely with each other. She has given me pics of him and I can't hardly look at him or keep them out b/c I think of what she put him through. Everytime she brings him up and says 'oh my poor baby ...whatever is wrong at the time' I think and you were fine with cutting his penis off? She will be moving out of state in a few months so that will probably be the end. I can't handle it.

[Jenivere]

I am now faced with this decision. I have very few close freinds and this woman has two kids, a boy 1 month younger than my girl and a girl that will be one soon. She breastfeeds, is openly supportive of my choice to homeschool and breastfeed, she is a SAHM and obviously well attached to her children. I found out today that her son in circumcised and while I was not mean about it I let her know that to me it's a really hot issue and I am tottaly against it. She made the decision with the knowledge she had at the time but her main reason seem to be fear of infection. Had I known her while she was pregnant and been able to inform her I might feel the need to drop her as a freind but meeting her after the fact, well I don't. She can't change what is allready done. She is hoping to have at least one more child but not for a little while so maybe between now and then I can educate her on the subject.

[imgr8ful]

my sister is due any day w/ her first baby - don't know if it's a boy or a girl. i have tried everything to change their minds, but they still plan on circ'ing if it's a boy. :

i really really hope they are having a girl - i don't know how our relationship will survive if they circ.

[rebeccalizzie]

I'm being faced with this right now and I'm having a really rough time with it. My DH's best friend's wife, who is totally AP, having a natural birth, very crunchy, homeschooled, the whole bit. Her DH is against it, no one in his family is circ'd (he's European) and no one in her family is either! She says it's because she knew *one guy* who had a horrible infection when he was 16 and had to be circ'd then and it was just the worst thing ever. I tried to compare it to my cervical cancer, or breast cancer, or really severe gangrene in limbs...no dice.

Sigh...she's really young and I'm really hoping she'll change her mind when she sees her perfect ds (she's due next week). She's planning to have her ped do it after 2 weeks because supposedly they can have anethesia and heal better once they are 2 weeks old. So maybe once she sees him and cares for him she won't be able to do it. Or I hope her DH can change her mind, or that he just flat out refuses to let her have it done (which is still possible, and DH is trying to gently steer him in that direction).

I really love this woman, and she's one of the few people that understand my crunchiness. So I'm praying she changes her mind.

[peacelovingmama]

Personally, I have a much harder time remaining friendly with someone who hits children. Circ is something that many people are ill-informed -- or even mis-informed -- about. Sometimes even by their doctors. Some people make a choice, later educate themselves, and then regret that choice. Having made parenting mistakes myself, I just don't feel judgmental enough to cut those people out of my life. Or, to be honest, even my Jewish friends who have circ'd.

But hitting is something that many parents do repeatedly. They make what I consider to be an immoral choice over and over again. I think that choice shows not just ignorance, but the decision to violate another human being with violence. So that is probably the one AP choice I have most trouble being flexible on with friendships.

[betsu63]

Choice

While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.

[jessjgh1]

I'm another one that would stay friends... of course, it depends on the person and what there "reasoning" is. I'm very lucky that the majority of my friends have left their sons intact... No one I know that choose circumcision did so for purely cosmetic reasons, or for social reasons. It was a combination of factors, fears, and myths their doctors did not break.

I blame the doctor's and medical professionals that present circumcision as a viable 'option' and do not educate parents on how normal the foreskin is. That do not explain the risks in real terms or share the function of the foreskin to prospective parents.

I know too many parents that have gone to a medical doctor and asked their opinion on this issue and have not been advised to keep their son intact. Coupled with the myths they know and a few internet searches, they are either overwhelmed by all the conflictining information and opinions that they are faced with-- and choose what is most comfortable with and used to -- or they find their way to a pro-circ area or group and find information that makes that decision look like a medical choice.

It makes me sick, and sad, but I understand why they would be unwilling to do something that they think (and are told) is risky.

I will continue to be friends with them and when the opportunities present, I will try to find out what information they were missing, so that I can try to share more appropriate information with my other friends and people. I won't be afraid to share that my son is intact and that I'm happy with the decision the more and more I learn about this issue. But I wouldn't be purposefully harsh or judgemental, just hoping that something I say might resonate with them and make them look into the issue once more.

I would have a hard time being friends with someone if I felt their choice was thoughtless and careless, but my best friend did circ her son, and she asked me for some information--- what I didn't realize was that after she then started calling all the pediatric urologists in her area to get their opinions. And of course, all of them told her she'd be better off circumcising at birth to avoid problems later. I know a lot more now then I did when I was talking to her.

What am I going to do, tell her she's an idiot for trusting the advice of a specialist? Sorry, should I throw 28 years of friendship away? I don't think so.

I STILL have doubts on this issue... because sometimes it just seems so barbaric that it is impossible to believe that circ happens, and such circ happens all the time, then maybe it must not be so crazy... but sadly, I know that circ is barbaric, I just have to be angry that it is ingrained in our society and find ways to rock the boat.

And you know what sometimes occurs to me when we have people posting on minor problems (and some not so minor) that I think it is sometimes a good thing that only the strongest of us get through this battle, because we have to stand up to doctors misdiagnosing and doctors prematurley retracting, and all the naysayers, and 'diaper rash' episodes that we think are just that, but not sure... because everyone told us to expect infections. Then we hear posts about painful erections, or some pain when adhesions are loosening (and I've gone through this a little with my son) and then there can be doubts.

Sorry to be pessemistic, but those are each many opportunities for one doctor to come in and say, hmmm. circumcision now. And that's one more parent that can say, I left my son intact and he needed to be circed later.

That's a circle of violence that is hard to break- and maybe sometimes it is just as well that some people don't opt to be the change maker.

Just something that occurs to me every now and again, when I'm in a bad mood.

But what is heartening to me is that my best friend, even though she made a different decision, knows enough about the issue that she is likley to present positive information to a pregnant friend of hers... or even tell that person about me. If I had shut her out, I don't think that kind of opportunity would ever present itself.

I do think circ is child abuse, but in most cases, I believe it is the doctors performing and encouraging that have blood on their hands.

Jessica