If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 3

[Kathryn]

Originally Posted by betsu63

While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.

Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing TO them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

Our point is, IT IS NOT A PARENTS CHOICE. There is a huge difference between slicing off a large part of your childs genitals and co-sleeping or any other thing you mentioned. Do you have a husband with circ problems that affect your marriage? I do as do many women around the US and on this board. IT AFFECTS THE CHILD FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. This is NOT something you are doing FOR your child or FOR your family. This is something you are doing TO them. You are altering their physical life forever. This is a HUGE desicion. Would you stay friends with a person who had their daughters labia cut off "just because"?

If the criteria is whether a decision "affects the child for the rest of [his/her] life," then most of these areas do. Not bfing has significant health effects that last a lifetime. Hitting children has been shown to do significant damage to self-esteem, to cause various behavioral problems and, in too many cases, to lead to horrid abuse. Vaccinations may do irreversible damage.

My point is just that, in every one of these areas which we are all so passionate about, we could decide to end friendships because permanent damage is being done to a child. For me, personally, if I feel the person is otherwise good and moral and a loving parent, ignorance (or genuine disagreement with my moral values) is not going to end an otherwise healthy friendship.

And to answer the question about FGM - yes, I would stay friends with someone who did that, under certain conditions (cultural pressures, lack of education, genuinely loved and thought they were doing the best thing for the child, etc.). I think it behooves us to educate more than to judge and alienate people.

[Kathryn]

I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.

[Acksiom]

It would depend upon the friend, but usually I'd maintain the friendship. What I'd do as a consequence, however, would depend upon whether or not I had spoken with them about the issue beforehand. If I hadn't, I'd leave it alone for the most part, unless and until they were having another boy (or child of deliberately undermined gender), at which point I'd try to get them properly informed, and convinced of protecting their sons' (or daughters', if I knew anyone who was likely to have their little girls cut as well), genital integrity.

If, however, I'd already tried to accomplish that previously, and they'd had the kid/s cut anyways, then I'd still maintain the friendship so that I could keep after them about it.

In short, if they can't handle my actions, let them abandon their friendship towards me. What they do doesn't change my committment to them -- which, IMO, includes efforts to keep them on the true and virtuous course in life.

Another advantage of this approach, in my estimation, is how it tends to force discussion of the issue throughout the general circle of friends. People end up having to talk about it, because if they know whenever we have a group get-together, I'm gonna be on, say, A&B's cases about it off and on throughout, they have to reconcile their committments to principles like inclusivity and so forth. What do they do -- not invite someone because I'm not going to let a mutual friend or friends off the hook? My friends are definitely going to have a conversation at that point about just how justified my behavior is, and I can guarantee you they won't all side against me -- plenty of them 'get it' already.

Let those who know better, but fail to do the right thing, be the ones to choose ostracization and isolation for themselves. I won't be the one to give up on them.

[LotusBirthMama]

My two best friends each had a boy in the last 3 years and I shared my feelings on circ and they know/knew how opposed I am to it. They both circed their respective sons. Do I like it? No. Did it sadden me? Yup. But they are amazing women and I can't define my entire relationship with them based on one thing. I love them, I love their sons, and would never give up my friendships with them over it. Just me.

[LotusBirthMama]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

I'm not ending friendships because I feel like making a point to anyone. I honestly cannot look at someone the same way when I know they've preformed cosmetic surgery on a newborn usually without pain relief. I can't be around them, therefore, the friendship is over.

Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.

[paquerette]

LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes. : ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.

[tireesix]

I don't care if someone is ill informed or not, if a foreskin really caused so many problems it wouldn't be there in the first place...... Seeing as though it is there then it obviously has a purpose.It does not take a genius to work that one out....

I refuse to be friends with anyone who circs unnecessarily etc etc etc. Its not just about disagreeing with their so called 'personal choice', its about what they have inflicted, unnecessarily, upon a vulnerable child. I cannot be friends with someone who thinks that circumcision, breastfeeding, ear piercing etc is a personal decision when in fact, it isn't their decision at all, the child has a right too.

[jessjgh1]

Well, I'm not LBM, but I can relate....

LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing.

Yes, I have 2 friends that fit this bill, with a few exceptions. Friend #1 asked her doctors and called pediatric urological specialists, and was told information that reinforced her concerns about infections, cancer, etc-- the things listed on the AAP statement. She is an amazing person, mother, a wonderful teacher and child advocate. All she wants to do is stay at home with her son, but she hasn't been able to do that, and she is doing everything she can do to do that as soon as possible.


Friend #2 is a pediatrician and does not cosleep because when she was a resident she attended to an infant that died while cosleeping- and that effected her in a way to say, no never for me. As a pediatrician she supports her parents that choose to cosleep, but says that she wouldn't be able to fall asleep herself with her child. And her resolve was tested with this because dd#1 had 'colic'. So she walked around for hours at night with babe in a sling, because her daughter wouldn't stop crying without the movement of the sling too. But she is an amazing mother and a breastfeeding and pro-intact advocate. Unfortunatly, her dh is not on board on circing and if their child is a boy, they might do it. The conversations were stalled because dc#1 was a girl.

So for her, I still have time to ask her more and question it, but I know that she is not 'horrified' by circumcisions and does not consider them abuse. I think she looks at them like 'elective shots' (and yes, I know that no-vax is an extremely valid choice). She probably sees about 50/50 at her practice and I know she did mention that she sometimes saw circ complications/problems for certain practitioners, but did tell me about one of the doctors she knows that does them-a woman she really likes for her gentle manner with patients (yes, quite contradictory, but she made the point that this doctor is very calming to the babies-- other doctors she knows leaves the boys in the circumstraint alone and go on wiht their business, so the babes are hysterical the whole time).

So maybe I can try to ask her about this more and see if it is still open for discussion.

Unfortunatly, in America it is still considered a parent's right to choose this, as much as we here can hate it, that is the truth.

I think I have to reach out to people and get them to understand this issue before I can condemn them for doing something society considers 'normal'. And it IS like many other issues (FGM, foot binding, other atrocities). There are times when these things are/were acceptable. Unfortunatly, we live IN a time where circumcision is acceptable and it is hard to easily break this down when there are many 'facts' out there that seem to put circ and intactness on equal footing.

The AAP statement is horrible for us to fight. I for one wouldn't expect any momma to take my word/advice over the AAP's weak statement that says there are some medical benefits to circ...

Jessica

[Bm31]

My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.

[Canadianmommax3]

Originally Posted by betsu63

While I understand that people feel strongly about what others decide for their children, I find it hard to understand that people would stop being friends with someone just because of one decision.There are just so many decisions to make when people have children. Things like co-sleeping, breastfeeding past a certain age, vaccination, letting kids be disruptive to others, letting children not be vaccinated and potentially get a disease. I'M NOT JUDGING PEOPLE WHO DO THESE THINGS! Do you ask potential friends (who have children already) if they have their boys circumsized and not be friends with them.

that is what i am curious about, i became friends with a woman at work i have been there 14 years she was a new person, she is total opposite (didn't breastfeed, certainly didn't cosleep) not sure if her son is circed or not. (her son is 10 )
Really not my business, i can't see myself saying hey can't be friends with you unless you fit my criteria here's a list fill it out and get back to me!
I think of what i could be missing out on by not having her in my life! But that's just me

[Apwannabe]

Of course I would not stop being friends with someone because of that! My best friend has twin boys that are circ'd. We have been friends since we were 4 years old I should stop being her friend over one decsion. That is crazy!

[kate~mom]

Originally Posted by LotusBirthMama

Not being snarky, but have you had to test this? Have you had really close friends that you needed to walk away from over the circumcision of their child? I hope not, because then that means maybe your friends aren't circing!

In my PP I mentioned my two closest friends did circ their now toddler sons. I love them so much and they bring so much to my life that to "break up" with them would be like losing my sisters. I don't know if it would be worth it...yk? Like, I can't change what they did, but to no longer be their friend...it boggles my mind.

: that is exactly my experience. i have been struggling while reading this thread, about exactly how to explain my feelings, and you have summed it up quite clearly.

yes, i feel HORRIBLY for their sons AND for their personal struggles in coming to the decision they made, but it's not worth losing a wonderful friendship over.

[LotusBirthMama]

Originally Posted by paquerette

LBM, I'm curious about your two friends. They're otherwise gentle, loving, caring parents? And they're otherwise kind, empathetic people? And you guys had detailed discussions about the unnecessary cruelty of RIC? How did they justify their decisions to you (if they did?) I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around what could posess an otherwise more or less good person to do such a thing. The issue with the person I know, it became apparant that this was just another in a string of bad things about her (she's bigotted, anti-intellectual, selfish. She's gonna CIO and spank and who knows what else. It took the circ argument to open my eyes. : ) But I guess I got it in my head that this is a good benchmark of what kind of person someone is. How could a good person make a well informed choice to non-religiously circ? I just don't get it.

Well, the first friend was pregnant shortly after my DD was born. I was still "new" to the whole natural scene and not very comfortable discussing it, but I printed out a bunch of stuff for her to read. I don't know that she did read it in detail, but she had said "Look, my other son is, every man I know is, its not a huge thing to me." This mama's son is now nearly three, they co sleep, she is still nursing, and she is a general all around awesome mom.

The second friend wavered, her partner wanted to do it...I think they were leaning towards leaving him intact, when my friend's dad called her. He told her that he (the dad) was intact and had so many issues and trouble that he urged them to circ his grandson. Now, I have no idea WHAT his penis problems were, but it was enough to tip the scales towards circing.

I really do not consider it to be a benchmark of wht kind of person you are. Sorry, but I don't. I plan to leave any and all sons intact and hope that they leave their sons intact and on and on thru the ages. Thats all I can do...

And, I don't have enough AP friends to go weeding them out based on one thing.

[LotusBirthMama]

Originally Posted by Bm31

My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.

Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...

[MidwifeErika]

This is a tough one! So far we have been lucky and our friends who have had boys have listened, educated themselves, and left their boys intact!!! That is such a relief when it happens as then I know there won't be emotions getting in the way. However, we have a couple that are our very, very close friends and we are 95% certain that when they do have kids and if they do have a boy, they will circ. Even after hearing our information on the subject and having discussions about it, I think they thought our choice to leave our DS intact was weird. I can hope and pray that they change their minds before ever having a boy though. And I think even if they do it, we will probably still be friends. I will be very disappointed and it may take me some time to get over their actions, but I *think* we will still be friends.

[MidwifeErika]

Oh, I forgot to say though, we have chosen to not be friends with someone based on the fact that they were *performing* the circumcisions. Now if any of my other friends take up jobs performing circumcisions in order to make some extra $$$, absolutely I would never in a million years be their friend again. Someone who abuses babies for money I just can't hang with.

[drnmd1216]

Well for my two friends that recently circ'ed their boys...I KNOW that their main reason was bc their dh/boyfriend wanted it done and insisted on it being done. I feel bad...yes even guilty that I couldn't persuade my two friends to be strong enough to vehemently fight their dh/boyfriend for what was right, but I also remember what it was like fighting my dh tooth and nail at first over the circ. issue. We got into major major emotional fights about it bc he felt so strongly for it...and now after a year learning about circ, he knows how wrong his thinking was but its been a long process. Even after our son was born, he said a little part of him still wanted it done and its not until recently that he has become in an intactivist.

No, I won't stop being friends with my them both though bc I don't think either one of them acting maliciously doing so....I feel it was more my fault bc I failed at convincing their dh's it was the wrong thing to do. I know how hard it is to fight against the "well it happened to me and I am perfectly fine and I like being circ'ed" argument. Its definately not a fun place to be trying to reason with that kind of thinking bc you have to convince them that their thinking is wrong, their penis is wrong and that circ. is wrong in general. Yes, it makes perfect sense to you and I bc we have all spent so much time and energy reading it all, watching it all, and talking about it all.

I am jealous of those of you that must have an easy time convincing others not to circ....I think it would be FABULOUS if one day I could show a friend an article about keeping intact and have them choose not to circ!! unfortunately, I have had such a hard time getting through to anyone here. I am right now working on my sister and best friend, who aren't even pg, just bc I feel like once I find out someone is having a boy, its already too late...I just don't have enough time to get deeply enough into it to convince everyone its wrong.

Those of you that would dismiss your friends without a second thought, don't you have hope that you could change their views for subsequent children. These are both my friends' first babies. There seems to be a good number of people here that circ'ed one child and went on to not circ others. I just don't feel its the end for my friends...I will continue to educate them on being intact and its benefits, while mentioning the downfalls of circ and such. I haven't lost all my hope yet for them.

[Apwannabe]

My sister circ'd my nephew and I didn't speak with her for two years. If it weren't for my niece being born last July with a serious heart condition, and my sister calling me in tears, I'm not sure I ever would have again.



Thats funny you should share this! I was just talking to my twin sister about this thread. I told her i could deal with my closest friends' circing their boys..but if my sister did it...

I dunno...

Maybe b/c that would be my nephew? I just think I would feel a lot more strongly about it coming from her...

But doesn't that mean giving up any relationship with your nephew as well? That just doesn't seem to make sense to me, It seems if you ( collective you) were so worried about him in this issue you would to remain in his life, no matter what. My little sister (11 months) isn't breastfeed. There is no reason for herr not to be. I tried for months to convince my dad;s girlfriend to breastfeed her. She completely understands that it is best for her but she doesn't do it. It is maddening. I would never give up my relationship with my sister over it though.

[kxsiven]

I'm still confused wy circumcision is called personal choice? Or compared to things like breastfeeding? Don't get me wrong, breast is best for baby, absolutely, and pretty much everybody here in Scandinavia breastfeed eventhough we do not have any 'big movement' or fuss here. But. I do not understand how anyone can compare formula feeding to what is done in circumcision?
As far as hitting, if I knew that my friend was hitting her child I would call to child protective services since anykind of physical violence towards children is forbidden by law.

And still...if a child get swapped to his buttocks, it will not leave the damage that circumcision does(not that I accept hitting, absolutely not).

This is not about judging. This is about my personal choice with whom I want to be friends with. Obviously some one who would do such a horrid thing to a child has so totally different values in life that there is no point. I would not end friendships to make somekind of point. I just don't want to be around people who have so totally different view of life.

Like Kathryn said, it affects to the child rest of his life in horrible ways. Not only has he gone through horrible pain right after he has born but he will never experience sex as nature intended.

Maybe this is a cultural difference - after all Americans have lived with circumcision 100 years where as here it has always been concidered child abuse?