TCS Discussion 4 - Page 2

[Iguanavere]

I need more help...

Thanks Larsy,

I went to the list and I don't have the time right now to subscribe,b ut I may do so in the near future - plugged duct....

Anyway, I see what you mean but that is also a criticism of TCS - that it appears neglectful and laissez-faire.

When reading the article - despite the negative tone of the author, which I don't appreciate, the sense that I get is that Walker's parents were doing exactly what TCS subscribes - helping their child get what they want, without judgement of whether their wants are inappropriate or appropriate.

Now, truth be told, I am not sure that I have enough information about Mr. Walker or his parents to make a judgement. And I also believe that it is any persons right to support whatever cause they so choose to believe as long as it does not infringe on my personal freedoms.

But when the outcome is Sept. 11th - I wonder if showing disapproval and making limits on what you will support as parents is coercive.

For example, if my 16 year old child came home and decided that he wanted to shave his head because all of his neo-nazi friends were doing it - I would not allow it in my home.

[k'smami]

Re: John Walker

What I don't see in this article or any that I've read on the subject, although it may be something that did happen, is that the parents shared their theories about all of these things with their son. They could have listened to him about all that he was exploring and listening to the music he brought home and shared their theories on the subjects. Or they could have seen all of this happen and took the trepidation they felt, buried it somewhere and said, "Well, ok..." and see Johnny follow the advice of others without his parents' input.

In my opinion I would have been helping my son criticize the ideas he was coming across, not just standing back while he followed somthing blindly (if that's what went on here). I have read Malcolm X (excellent book by the way) and I have listened to the hip hop CD's with the especially "nasty lyrics" and have criticized and thought about all of the ideas presented there with my friends and my husband- some of whom have an appreciation for this music and some who don't. My son will be exposed to these ideas because of the lifestyle I have chosen to lead and he will have access to all of the theories that I have regarding it. He will also have my opinions and theories regarding all matters.

And finally, although I do not support the attacks of Sept. 11th, I have come across many people who (how shall I put it?) are not surprised that they were perpetrated, many of them (if not all)who were not raised based on TCS. I don't think I want to hold a parent responsible if their adult son (He was over 18, was he not?) has an opinion that they would disagree with.

[Netty]

Conflict and coercion

I think that this article (and others like it) raise a very important issue. I know that these sorts of articles make me really think about parenting and helping children become "who they are". I think it is difficult to judge the situation based on the information we have on how John Walker Lindh was raised. It certainly seems non-coercive, but I'm not convinced it was TCS-style non-coercion.

Based on the article (and others I've read), it seems that Lindh's parents failed to share their theories with their son. They may have believed that any disagreement would be understood as coercive or unsupportive of their child's rights. In other words, they confused "support" with "agreement" (it seems that many in the mothering.com community sometimes do this as well ). The great poet William Blake wrote "no progression without conflict" and I think that idea is important here. Every progressive thought is created out of conflict. This returns us to the idea of learning as a process of conjucture and refutation. If one's theories are never refuted, one cannot hope to improve them. John Walker Lindh's parents may have failed their son because they feared conflict. They thought that saying "I disagree" would be the same as saying "I don't support you for who you are". But that is to make a very grave mistake. Any parent who "enables" a child to live in a world without conflict is denying that child the opportunity for growth.

This came up quite awhile ago on the TCS list because a poster had misunderstood TCS as an attempt to sheild children from the world and from direct experience with conflicting ideas. But *helping* children get what they want (i.e. to avoid remaining in a state of coercion) is not the same as helping children avoid conflict. Without conflict there is no learning. TCS is an educational philosophy based on the idea that all human beings learn through the process of conjecture and refutation (conflict). A parent who fails to share their conflicting theories (non-coercively: i.e. no judgement of the *child* but merely of the child's *ideas*) is not a TCS parent according to my understanding of TCS.

Netty

p.s. Wow JW! I'd be ashamed to show my paintings now. Your work is *incredible*! Thanks for sharing. And I loved the self-portrait. It's exactly how I pictured you and most likely how you picture me as we strive to slay the dragons of opposing thought ). Maybe I'll get the courage to share some poetry sometime but my skills in the visual arts pales--in fact I think it disappears--in relation to yours.

[Jish]

Did everyone call a truce? I have never seen the TCS thread so far down the list.

[Netty]

****When reading the article - despite the negative tone of the author, which I don't appreciate, the sense that I get is that Walker's parents were doing exactly what TCS subscribes - helping their child get what they want, without judgement of whether their wants are inappropriate or appropriate. ****

But TCS parents do offer their theories/judgments. Again, they judge the *theories* of the child but not the *child*.

****But when the outcome is Sept. 11th - I wonder if showing disapproval and making limits on what you will support as parents is coercive.****

I would definitely tell my child that I disapproved!!!!! And I would have shared that beforehand.

****For example, if my 16 year old child came home and decided that he wanted to shave his head because all of his neo-nazi friends were doing it - I would not allow it in my home.****

Well, that's a hard one. I would never tell my child what he could or could not do. I would share my theories with him. I would let him know where I stand and why. But I would still support his right to do what *he* thinks is right for him. And I don't think of our home as *mine*...It belongs to the entire family so he would be just as free to do what he wants in it as I am or any other member of the family is.

Netty

[Jish]

Does TCS ever use the word "opinion?" I notice that everyone talks about sharing their "theories" with their children rather than their "opinions."

[Raven]

I would never tell my child what he could or could not do. I would share my theories with him. I would let him know where I stand and why. But I would still support his right to do what *he* thinks is right for him.

A part of me slightly agrees but the rest of me is just : .

Aren't there times when a parent *needs* to assert their 'theory' or opinion? I mean, as parents we have been where our kids are...we know the pros and cons better than they do merely because we have already been there.

****For example, if my 16 year old child came home and decided that he wanted to shave his head because all of his neo-nazi friends were doing it - I would not allow it in my home.****

I would ask myself what my son is lacking in his life in order for him to feel the desire to be part of such an extreme organisation. It is my humble belief that teenagers only join gangs/cults/groups, etc so that they can feel part of something. Their hormones are going wonky and in their minds they honestly believe that the entire world is watching them and judging them according to whats cool and whats not. I was 16 three yrs ago so I remeber quite clearly....

If my son wanted to join a neo-natzi regime I would seriosly assert my opinion that it was not a good idea. There are so many factors that will contribute to whether or not he will agree....
Do we have a strong bond of trust? Is he able to talk and share his emotions with me? Is he or the family going through a stressfull period?

It is very difficult to say, "I would do x, y or z" before actually having had the experience.

[Wildflower]

I'd like the TCS view on situation with young baby grabbing for stuff, thanks!

Um, hi...I would really like a TCS perspective on something that I'm curious about, is it okay if I just ask my question here? I didn't have time right now to read all the posts unfer tjis thread, but I think I'm supposed to keep TCS-related stuff within this thread and not start another one, so here goes...larsy? netty? other TCS folks? I'd love to hear from you...

Suppose an infant below age 6 months quite naturally wants to touch grab yank taste gum suck every object (s)he can get hir hands/mouth on, especially stuff that hir parents frequntly have/show interest in, i.e. mugs of hot beverages, newspapers...

Supposes hir parents want to be TCS and therefore want to help the babe learn whatever it is babe seeks to learn through these explorations and therefore are trying to curtail their urge to move things that babe is reaching for out of babe's reach just because they are worried that babe will somehow manage to harm self with the thing...but also. parents want to be conscious that babe prefers not to hurt self and surely prefers that parents prevent babe from hurting self, ie by grabbing mug and spilling hot tea, by poking eye with utensil as she attempts with her still-developing powers of coordination to get it in her mouth...

see what i'm talking about? Parents struggling to negotiate how to keep baby from getting hurt while not coercively grabbing objects away or keeping out of reach stuff babe is obviously straining all hir little muscles to aquire...

Maybe parents could just keep totally clear of all questionable objects, drink lukewarm tea, don't use utensils whicj babe mightsee and want, but that's a lot of stuff since babe is worn in sling/carrier anf is right their with parent through all the parent's daily activitites...


sorry if this is confusing! thanks so much for any replies!

[Nawny]

Hi Wildflower,

First of all, I don't think doing without utensils and hot drinks sounds very pleasant. TCS is definitely not about self-sacrifice, so you are right to ditch that idea. Instead, here are some thoughts that might help...

For dangerous utensils... Have spoons and forks with rounded tines available for baby to play with whenever s/he wants. Offer these alternatives when child reaches for sharper utensils. If child wants to explore sharper utensils, talk about what the dangers are, and try to find a safe way... Maybe show baby that the tines are sharp? Poke own finger and say "OW!" Or hold fork so that child can touch it but not stab anyone's eyes out.

For hot drinks... Say "HOT!!" with alarm and concern. Offer baby coffee mugs that are empty or have lukewarm water for exploring. Perhaps explore hot as a concept with child, using a lamp or a hot water bottle, or even a hot mug. I do NOT mean burn the baby or allow the baby to be burned. I mean help child safely approach a heat source with adult guidance, while saying "HOT" and pulling away when too close (in my experience, child will want to pull away even before adult). Or talk about hot and cold in the bath, and experiment with cups of very warm water and cups of very cold water.

Have lots of other fun things to touch, drink, and explore around. See if child would like a basket of "adult" things (spoons, mugs, spatulas, scrub brushes, maybe all in a big mixing bowl) to sit in front of and dump out. See if child wants access to more food, or just the tools, and provide that access.

None of these ideas are necessarily new or inventive, but they might help initiate brainstorming. I know I'm saying "talk about" a lot, and most six month old babies don't do a whole lot of talking, but in my experience they do understand a lot.

I hadn't heard of TCS when my child was six months old, so these are things I tried without any support. I'm curious if others have more, better ideas.

Edited to add: You might also want to try posting to the TCS Babies/Toddlers list. Sorry, I don't have the link, but I think you can find it at the TCS site.

[larsy]

jbcjmom wrote:

"Does TCS ever use the word "opinion?" I notice that everyone talks about sharing their "theories" with their children rather than their "opinions". "

Opinions are a part of one's theories. They are subjective, a product of each individual's experience in the world and the knowledge they have created so far, reflecting where a person stands on any particular issue at that particular time.

So, yes, I think TCS people talk about their opinions frequently. Theories are more than just opinion, but opinion is definately a part of one's theories. Both opinions and theories are possibly wrong; remembering fallibity.

Jest my opinion

[larsy]

Raven wrote:

"Aren't there times when a parent *needs* to assert their 'theory' or opinion? "

If you mean, to force a child to comply with what the parent thinks is the right thing to do but the child does not agree, then I think it would be a mistake to follow that course of action. It sets children and parents up as opponents and brings about a lot of bad feelings- resentment, anger, revenge. It sets kids up to rebel, where they might take action without good advice and information and support and get themselves into a tight spot without anyone to turn to for help.

But certainly, a parent and child who are willing to listen to each other will share their theories and opinions with respect and concern and love and all that, in seeking a common preference, engaging creativity and creating new knowledge for them all.

"I mean, as parents we have been where our kids are...we know the pros and cons better than they do merely because we have already been there. "

We have been in similar situations, at a different time in history, and as ourselves, not as them. They are different people than their parents are. They might have a different set of pros and cons, different priorities, different goals, in a different world than ours was when growing up. As parents, we can offer what we have learned from our experiences and what we think the consequences of a proposed course of action will be for our child now, but each person has to make their own choices in life.

Is there a better way than learning to make decisions based upon one's own best interests (and about how one's own best interests are intertwined with other people's best interests which is an important consideration but does not supercede one's own best interests, imo) with support and good advice and information from trusted sources?

[larsy]

Raven wrote:

"quote:
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****For example, if my 16 year old child came home and decided that he wanted to shave his head because all of his neo-nazi friends were doing it - I would not allow it in my home.****
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I would ask myself what my son is lacking in his life in order for him to feel the desire to be part of such an extreme organisation. It is my humble belief that teenagers only join gangs/cults/groups, etc so that they can feel part of something."

Yes, in such a situation, I think the parents and child would have a lot of theories to explore, hopefully together.

" Their hormones are going wonky and in their minds they honestly believe that the entire world is watching them and judging them according to whats cool and whats not. I was 16 three yrs ago so I remeber quite clearly.... "

I think it would be a mistake to label the problem 'it's just hormones'. Labeling and preconceived notions tend to short circuit creative problem solving, imo.

"If my son wanted to join a neo-natzi regime I would seriosly assert my opinion that it was not a good idea. There are so many factors that will contribute to whether or not he will agree....
Do we have a strong bond of trust? Is he able to talk and share his emotions with me? Is he or the family going through a stressfull period? "

Exactly! Lots to explore and problems to be defined and solved.

"It is very difficult to say, "I would do x, y or z" before actually having had the experience"

Well, sure, but one's worldview will determine how one goes about solving the problems presented in any particular situation. TCS theory helps us to explore the possibilities of solving problems non-coercively in the face of conflict. It's a way of life.

[Ms. Mom]

Larcy, I agree with you about trying to find out what my son was lacking. I feel much like you, in that children seek acceptance and belonging. When they reach in directions that can be harmfull to them, I feel its because they arn't getting what they need. It's important to explore with them what's truly going on.

This topic would actually be great to discuss over in the Teenage Years.

[Wildflower]

Thanks Nawny!

I've been making good use of all your suggestions, and its been working out really good, it feels much better in my heart and mind, and baby is happier as well. Thank you. Every time I help to guide instead of hurry to obstruct percieved danger, i feel more and more comfortable with the idea, and somehow more comfortable with myself as well.

[Nawny]

Glad I could help!

You reminded me of some good advice I got from the TCS list which has helped me A LOT... Instead of panicking or saying "no" to an activity which appears dangerous, I now try to ask myself "how can I help my child do this safely?" It is amazing how this opens up my perceptions...

[larsy]

Ms. Mom wrote:

"Larcy, I agree with you about trying to find out what my son was lacking. I feel much like you, in that children seek acceptance and belonging. "

Yes, most importantly and primarily from their parents. If a kid has to look for the acceptance and belonging outside of their family, the family members will need to explore the problems in the family relationship, as painful as that process might be.

"When they reach in directions that can be harmfull to them, I feel its because they arn't getting what they need. It's important to explore with them what's truly going on. "

What they need might be no more than good information and advice from a trusted advisor or three. If parents find that they are not trusted advisors, there is no time like the present to begin to be one- though it might take a while and a lot of proof before a child will begin to trust them in this 'trusted advisor' capacity. Also, they might want to look around for others who the child does consider a trusted advisor and enlist their help in the process of working out the problems.

[Bex]

Way back at the end of discussion #3, Just Wondering said:
"I have been on the main TCs list for some time now. I lurk in all sorts of places actually......I only stick my oar in though, where debate is welcomed."

Well, I've just recently seen plenty of people on the main TCS list doing stuff like...discussing advice that has been offered, opining as to whether the solutions offered as 'TCS' are truly 'non-coercive', etc....even seen people offer skepticism of the philosophy itself.

Sure looks like debate to me...


-B

[Bex]

Nawny said:
"You reminded me of some good advice I got from the TCS list which has helped me A LOT... Instead of panicking or saying "no" to an activity which appears dangerous, I now try to ask myself "how can I help my child do this safely?" It is amazing how this opens up my perceptions..."

That's part of what I really respect about the TCS concept...that encouragement to think outside the 'mental ruts' we all can fall into...


-B

[larsy]

laelsweet's scenario

Apologies, laelsweet, that your post got lost in the thread!

laelsweet wrote:

"beautiful + poisonous
a parent and toddler go out for a walk and see some gorgeous red berries which the parent has been taught are poisonous (but is vague about just how toxic, if one must eat many to get sick, etc. and has never tasted them hirself) "

Oh! I remember wanting to pick those berries my whole childhood, and been warned off them, and to this day I too do not know the details, either, though I have an ureasonable fear of them! They are terribly attractive, arent' they.

"toddler really wants these berries and this conflict degrades into a bit of a tussle in order to get berries out of very fast toddlers hands. given that there was little time to talk about different kinds of berries, and the make-you-ill faces and sounds parent was making were having little effect, "

Getting down on their level and talking to them might help? 'Do you want to get sick? I've been told that these berries make people sick.'

"parent needed to do some apologizing about grabbing and arguing. better ways to handle something like this?"

In general, in situations like this, a parent has to do some quick thinking about the risks and how to avoid them, while figuring out exactly what the child wants. We can be fairly certain that children do not want to hurt their selves, be it potential poisoning or being flattened by a motor vehicle or falling from a cliff etc. They might want to pick the berries in a make believe game of gathering food for their family; they might want to walk along a busy street or the edge of a cliff; how can a parent help their child get what they want out of the experience, without being hurt?

Possibly finding an alternative use for the gorgeous berries, if people eating them can get very sick, but birds can eat them to live... like, squishing them and drawing with the juice on the sidewalk or rocks, maybe using a stick or rocks to work the berries (like grinding grain between two rocks), or making piles of them for the birds to come and get, or throwing them on the ground with enough force to make them splat. Pretending to be gathering them to eat might be sufficient, maybe gather some to take home to feed to dolly at tea time. ( carrying some handywipes in a pocket can come in handy for these situations! for those with amazing foresight )maybe stop at the store on the way and buy some edible berries.

If parent is not comfortable messing with the berries at all, not knowing if their information is good about the berries being poison, and their chosen course in the moment is to prevent interaction with the berries with apologies for the coercion involved, they might want to follow up with research to find out exactly what the risks are about those berries and share that info with their child at a receptive time- maybe a website with a picture of the berries, and pointing to the words that tell about the poison, and a visit to the local plant nursery with a picture of the plant or a sprig of it for identification and assessment of the danger. Maybe the sprig could be plucked from the bush and the walk continued to the local plant nursery, if nearby.

If the concept of poison has not been explored yet, parent could do so now. A dramatic dying scene might hold a toddler's attention and get the point across. If nothing else, the situation would draw the parent's attention to a subject that they can help their child learn about as soon as possible, at receptive times.

Hope this helps!

[larsy]

Iguanavere wrote:

"Anyway, I see what you mean but that is also a criticism of TCS - that it appears neglectful and laissez-faire. "

TCS is often confused with neglect and laissez-faire upon first examination of the philosophy. I think there is a clash between a coercive worldview- the assumptions about how things must be done without critical evaluation of the memes and expectations and societal structure that dictates those assumptions- and a non-coercive worldview. More thinking about it and in-depth analysis and continued criticism of TCS philosophy and one's own philosophy and theories takes a person beyond those initial perceptions, to the meat of the matter.

The neglect and laissez-faire, imo, is on the part of people who do not wish to question how and why things- in the case of TCS, parenting and education- are done. The powers that be in society prefer neglect and non-interference from the members of society, I expect; so, parents end up neglecting their children's- and their own- rights to individual autonomy. A basic human right, imo.