So are all mutts "designer" now

[Eman'smom]

I like to scan the online classifieds for the perfect second dog I'm really just window shopping another animal won't fit in our life right now, but hey if the perfect one was there......

Anyway I've been noticing all these "mutts" are now being called hybrids, best of both worlds, blah blah, not just the poodle crosses but everything seems to be the lastest "get these beauties now" kind of thing.


Now I understand an adoption fee so that people are serious about the commitment, but 400 (or way more) for a random mix, just because it's cute?

I mean if this is the case then our dog is the most amazing designer of all.

[Alana]

It is weird. My neighbor the other day...was telling me all about her mini poodle/schnauzer cross. A Schnoodle? The prices they sell these dogs for is just crazy!

[thekimballs]

I am of two minds on it. (And as a show breeder I think I'm just about the only one I know that even allows the THOUGHT of it--most show breeders start foaming at the mouth when anything ends in -poo.)

I have seen a VERY few quality breeding operations that are genuinely trying to hybridize certain breeds and have the best interests of the dog in mind. The current labradoodle craze was begun when an Australian version of Guide Dogs for the Blind crossed their specially bred Labs and Poodles. I think there is SOME evidence that crossing with poodles does confer some desirable traits.

However, what goes on here in most cases is nothing more than puppy-milling or back-yard-breeding under a different name. They don't cross the best to the best, they cross some backyard-bred Lab who doesn't conform with the breed standard and may have a very questionable temperament, and who has zero health testing, with a similar poodle, and then sell the offspring for insane prices.

The rule when buying hybrids is exactly the same as when you're buying a purebred--buy from a breeder who health-tests, whose dogs are high-quality representatives of the breed, who raises all puppies inside the house in a clean, enriching environment, and who subjects his or her dogs to some sort of peer evaluation like competitive obedience, agility, flyball, service dog status, etc.

[BabyBumblebee]

:

At least locally I see far too many ads for 'oops' litters that have cutesy names, and dubious breeding practices :

[shannon0218]

So silly....but ya know, if there's a market, some dork will fill it.
About 8 yrs ago we had an ooops litter of Giant Schnauzer/German Shepherd crosses (new neighbor....tied a Giant schnauzer she as SHOWING out in the front yard...my Havoc, studly beast that he is braved the invisible fence to go check it out....very funny looking pups resulted )
We gave the pups away. It was a joke at the time what could we call them. Little did we know we could have received top dollar for those munchkins if we could have found some neat name for them...Schnauzherds maybe...?
I saw one the other day, nice dog, but it's a MUT!!!!!!!!!! just like all the other mutts that don't have a cutsie name!!!!!!

whenever I hear about them I can't help but think of my clients who bought a "rare" long haired Rottweiller. Ummm, ok, congrats on paying $5000 for a fault.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

So silly....but ya know, if there's a market, some dork will fill it.

There is a lot of truth to this. A few months back, the pugle (pug/beagle) was the hot dog in hollywood. Now, I've heard that the pugle is no longer the hot dog in hollywood - it is now the schnoodle. I know a lady with 5 of them, the mom and four puppies all grown up. She rescued them all from a local reservation where they were unwanted. They are a great band, well-cared for, etc. She calls them schnoodles just for fun. They were oops dogs. I think if it happens as an oops and you can get the pups for free or very little money, that is ok. But, when the crossing is done for money, just to make a buck because it is a trend nowadays, then you can potentially get into trouble making dogs that have problems or will have problems or who are simply not worth the price the "breeders" are charging.

I met a woman recently who has a goldendoodle (golden retreiver/poodle). She told me she actually shopped for the cheapest price and that the dog she got was very ill when she purchased him for $600 bucks from a backyard breeder and that the yard was filthy and the puppies were living in squalid conditions. That is a very stupid woman, imo, to perpetuate irresponsible breeding of dogs by buying a sick one from a person who obviously was not doing it for the love of dogs. Stupid people do stupid trendy things.

But, it is also fun to give your dog a funny "hybrid" title, whether you purchased him or not. I hang out at a large off-leash park with my labradoodle and we all love to "name" our dogs. And, my doodle came from a reputable breeder who has been breeding dogs and horses for many years. There is a huge difference between a real labradoodle (yes they are a recognized breed in many countries - check out this website for more info) and the ones that come from puppy mills and back yards.

As with the purchase of any pet, it is really buyer beware. This goes for birds, reptiles, cats, dogs, etc. Any responsible person should do research before they purchase or adopt a pet and be responsible about where the pet comes from and how it will be raised in its new homes. Many people are not responsible with their pets. And, many people do not do research into where their pets come from and this inadvertently supports the puppy (and kitten and chick, etc) mill operations. Unfortunately, there are no laws to control these operations. But, there should be and we can all do something to help those laws be enacted. You can find information about stopping puppy mills at www.stoppuppymills.org and at the humane society's website www.hsus.org.

[kimnicole428]

When I was in college (read:young and stupid) I REALLY wanted a Chihuahua toy poodle mix I saw one a a mall pet store (ugghhh) Luckly, I did not have the $500 for it 10 years ago. I still think it was one of the cutest dogs ever. I called it a poo-huahua (thought it was funnier than what they had it labled as: chi-a-poo)

I think the Chihuahua/mini Daschund breeds are cute also. A friends mom has two from an Oops litter, but I have seen them for sale for outrageous amounts.

Now I have a rescue mini Daschund , and a Boxer from a friends litter

Well I am off to the vet for poor Boxer (Jasper) he somehow tore out a toenail

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by kimnicole428

I called it a poo-huahua (thought it was funnier than what they had it labled as: chi-a-poo) (

That is very funny! The names are a good laugh. Check this out for more funny names. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/american...hybridclub.htm

I think the fun of naming the "hybrid" dog is what is driving this trend. Personally, I like the "oodle" mixes: whoodle, doodle, schnoodle, etc.

[shannon0218]

Unfortunately the naming trend is also making puppy mills and irresponsible breeding even worse in spite of the fact that the public now knows about the horrors of mills. Often adding oodle is the ONLY factor that makes it suddenly hunkey dorey for some idiot to ask money for a mut.

Personally I think this trend is the demise of the dog world.

[ItyBty]

Persoanlly, I think Labradoodles are cute as heck, look like a mini-Irish wolfhound to me. I've always wanted a "wolfie" but DH thinks they are too big for our little house. He is partly right there, that and the low life-span puts me off. Labradoodles are reputed to have the hypo-allergenic qualities of poodles too, no dander - so for me with allergies, no sneezing is a bonus. But mostly, I just think they are cute as heck.

As for the silly hybrid names, what would you call a coonhound/Aussie mix? a Coonsie? Coonhound Shepherd? Aussie-hound? Coonperd? Whatever you call it - my Augie is adorable.

I've always been a huge fan of mutts - I figure - someone will always bu a dog from a breeder - but lots of sweet and lovable mutts get put down everyday. Were I to get a labradoodle, it'll be thru Petfinder or some such organization.

[rebeccalizzie]

I think the Chihuahua/mini Daschund breeds are cute also. A friends mom has two from an Oops litter, but I have seen them for sale for outrageous amounts

Wait, I think that's what my little dog is! She's a rescue, so we are just guessing...what do they look like? And what do they call them? Chi-hunds? dasch-huahuas?

Anyway, designer dog fads annoy me. Both of my dogs are mutts (the other is a lab/great dane mix...a labradane? ) but they were rescues so I didn't pay for them. My lab has hip problems that are probably going to deteriorate into serious pain for him in a few years, it would be so sad if someone were actually breeding his parents on purpose. There are plenty of dogs who need good homes if you want a mix, and I wouldn't encourage the practice by actually paying money for someone to backyard breed their dogs...if I'm going to pay breeder prices I'm going to a reputable breeder who actually *cares* about their dogs and perpetuating good lines instead of poor ones.

[shannon0218]

Thank you, that was the point i was attempting to get across, by playing into it all by paying money for these dogs we are just causing the problem to get worse....cause I can't tell you how many times a client has come to me and said "Ohhhh no, it's not a puppy mill dog!! Just this family who bred their 2 dogs"

[KBinSATX]

I like the Schnauzer mixes! I had a Schnauzer/Labmix for over a decade and he was so smart and sweet. I got him for free. In fact I was offered $50 by his owners to take him to the pound but I refused and kept him myself.
A couple of months after Buddy died I brought in a stray dog that looks like he has some Schnauzer in him, too. Just adorable. I figrued for sure somebody would miss this wonderful dog, but nobody has claimed him so I got another Schnauzer mix to spend the next decade with.
That;'s South Side San Antonio though. There is a pet shop on the Northside (close to where we have our Bradley classes) and they are selling all kinds of mixed breeds like that for $300. Depends on where you are looking I guess...
Plus we rarely get puppies. If you are willing to take a 1 or a 2 year old dog you can have almost anything because that's when people get tired of them. In my experience it also is just about the time when most dogs really mature and grow into themselves and become super dogs so it's my prefered age.

[kimnicole428]

Originally Posted by rebeccalizzie

Wait, I think that's what my little dog is! She's a rescue, so we are just guessing...what do they look like? And what do they call them? Chi-hunds? dasch-huahuas?
.

lol - they are really cute. they are tall like the CHI, they really dont have long bodies a little longer than a Dasch, the face is really cute the nose is like the perfect length. I had to ask what they were they kinda reminded me of dainty min pins.


Here is my favorite dog shopping page.
http://www.lonestarboxerrescue.com/rescue.shtml

We are doggiesitting Jasper's (the boxer) sister Riley for another week or so. We have had her for 2 weeks. We found that Jasper really likes to have another big dog around to play with...so I am tryign to convince DH we need another. I like Mint, Roxanne, and Brinkley. Would have to test Mint and Brinkley with Kids and a Kitty. Plus they have Heartworms. DH said he wouldnt take either until they were cured said he couldnt stand to get attached then lose them.

[primjillie]

I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers. I told them the scoop and I don't think they believed me. I will have to keep my eye out for their "papered" puppies when they breed her! The funny thing (I thought) is that the dog's parents weren't both labradoodles or even one of each - one was a labradoodle and one was a standard poodle. So I guess you can mix them up every which way and still call them "oodles"?

[primjillie]

I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers. I told them the scoop and I don't think they believed me. I will have to keep my eye out for their "papered" puppies when they breed her! The funny thing (I thought) is that the dog's parents weren't both labradoodles or even one of each - one was a labradoodle and one was a standard poodle. So I guess you can mix them up every which way and still call them "oodles"?

[shannon0218]

That's the problem I have, I remember 20 yrs ago when my neighbors bought a Cock-a-poo and told me they would be approved for registration ANY DAY NOW!!! Ummm, sure, no problem, don't hold your breath k??
The thing is, there is no valid purpose for any of these crosses. If you want a nonshedding larger dog, get a friggin standard poodle--and don't give me the line of "crosses have fewer health problems" that depends on what you cross, so if you cross the 2 dogs with the absolute highest percentage of health problems...get what???
I remember about 10 yrs ago some moron decided he was going to produce the perfect police dog. He crossed German Shepherds with Belgian Malinois. Yep, he could have got the best of both worlds, the loyalty & versitility of the shepherd and the unbelievable bite work of a Mal, but instead he got a bunch of anxious nutbars that couldn't track their way out of a paper bag. And guess what, they all had to be killed because they were VERY unsafe--they had the loyalty of the shepherd with the will bite anything that moves of the belgian. Horrible, horrible horrible experiment and 9 puppies had to pay with their lives. But maybe if he'd had a cutsie name it would have been a success.

[thekimballs]

On AKC: There IS something called the foundation stock registry at AKC. That's how breeds like the coonhounds are working on becoming AKC registerable; pedigrees from UKC and private records are kept for a long number of years and the breed is eventually declared pure enough to qualify for AKC recognition. Now whether that's any good for the breed at all is a good question, but people who say that such and such breed "is working on AKC recognition" are not necessarily lying.

However, the -poo and -oodle (and puggle and everything else) are HYBRIDS, not breeds. Breeds breed "true" after years and years of careful planning; if you breed two Italian Spinone you should be able to have puppies that all look like Spinone. Hybrids are the exact opposite--if you breed a lab and a poodle, you'll get a litter of puppies that basically look the same because the lab-poodle genes are each contributing half. That first litter is actually relatively predictable, as livestock breeders who cross angus and hereford or plant breeders who cross two strains of wheat know well.

Where the wrench comes in is when two hybrids are bred, or if a hybrid is bred back to a parent breed. NOW you've got a problem. If the labradoodle has a medium-sized nose because poodles have long thin noses and labs have short broad noses, you breed it to another hybrid and the two genes for long thin noses may meet. Or the two for short broad noses. It's very common to have a second generation litter in which a few puppies look like the parents (basically a mixture of the two original breeds), a few look like purebred poodles, and a few are indistinguishable from purebred labs--at least in size, coat length and head type, which is all we really look at when we recognize a dog. Temperament is the same deal--in that second generation you can get something very poodly or very labby or the worst of both, like Shannon said.

That's why the VERY few responsible Labradoodle breeders (like the Aussie Guide Dog program, which I believe eventually dropped the program) breed first-generation hybrids ONLY and all puppies are sold on a sterilization contract. There's no possibility of the Labradoodle becoming a true breed because it's not designed to breed true, and in fact if it WERE bred intentionally and for a long enough time to finally reproduce consistently it would be no more than another purebred. It would lose any of the supposed benefits of hybridization, thus putting itself out of any reason to exist.

I also have to say that if I were hybridizing, I wouldn't use poodles and labs. Neither of them is consistently healthy, so we should never expect their offspring to be magically healthy either.

[boongirl]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Personally I think this trend is the demise of the dog world.

What do you mean by that? I was watching an interesting show on PBS last week about people who raise show dogs and the show dog world. One of the judges said he thinks the inbreeding of dogs and the perpetuation of breed standards is doing great harm to the genetics of dogs, that they are seeing more and more genetic diseases, etc, because of inbreeding. How is crossing two breeds and selling the puppies to people for way too much money causing the demise of the dog world? There are plenty of mutts out there. This trend will pass.

Originally Posted by shannon0218

The thing is, there is no valid purpose for any of these crosses. If you want a nonshedding larger dog, get a friggin standard poodle--and don't give me the line of "crosses have fewer health problems" that depends on what you cross, so if you cross the 2 dogs with the absolute highest percentage of health problems...get what???

Shannon, I am very surprised you are still trying to make this argument. I recall having a discussion here at MDC with you about this exact topic a few months back. First of all, my labradoodle is WAAAAAAYYYY cuter than any lab or poodle. We get stopped all the time with people saying he is the cutest dog they have ever seen. Second, I hate the way labs smell and the way poodles look. My dh wanted one or the other so this, for us, was a golden compromise. Third, we got ours from a respectable breeder. We did our research well and got the dog we dreamed of getting. He is gentle, kind, sweet, loving, and has all the great qualities of the poodle and the lab. Fourth, the only bad qualities he has, so far, are a really annoying yelping bark (poodle) and believing himself a canine vacuum cleaner (lab). Otherwise, we got exactly what we had hoped in a labradoodle and he was worth literally every penny he cost. Fifth, inbreeding of dogs causes a lot of genetic and health problems for dogs. Mutts are less likely to have genetic health problems. So, logically, crossing two breeds is going to give you fewer genetic health problems than buying an inbred dog. Of course, crossing does not guarantee good health but at least the dog is not going to be predisposed to a genetic health issue.

And, some of these crosses really are adorable. Today, I saw the cutest little dog I've ever seen. (Mine is the cutest large dog. ) His lady got him from a shelter and all she knew was that he was part poodle. He looked like Benji with a kinky perm!

The nitwit, stupid buyer who does no research and buys a dog from a irresponsible, unscrupulous "breeder" (I use the term loosely on purpose) is the problem, not the hybrids, crosses, doodles, or whatever else ensues. People need to do research before they buy a dog. People need to be trained to understand exactly the problems they are causing buying from puppy mills and irresponsible backyard breeders and puppy mills should be outlawed.

Originally Posted by primjillie

I have some neighbors who paid $1200 for a labradoodle and they were so excited! They told me that she was a new breed of dog and they were going to breed her and make lots of money. The people they bought it from told them the breed was recognized by the AKC and they could get papers.

When the AKC writes them back, informing them that labradoodles are not a recognized breed in the USA and that the AKC actually has a position statement against them, maybe you can get a good deal on their dog. They probably won't want her anymore.

[shannon0218]

Originally Posted by boongirl

What do you mean by that? I was watching an interesting show on PBS last week about people who raise show dogs and the show dog world. One of the judges said he thinks the inbreeding of dogs and the perpetuation of breed standards is doing great harm to the genetics of dogs, that they are seeing more and more genetic diseases, etc, because of inbreeding. How is crossing two breeds and selling the puppies to people for way too much money causing the demise of the dog world? There are plenty of mutts out there. This trend will pass.

I mean that 90% of the persons breeding these cutsie crosses haven't a bloody clue what they're doing. There are no genetic standards in place and no goal to shoot for, no bar to rise above. We were finally making headway with the puppymill issue and then designer dogs lunged into the market and we lost every last bit of headway we'd fought for. They're not just in conditions of squallor now but in Aunt Mary and Uncle Ed's backyard. Problem is that Mary and Ed know exactly this much about breeding dogs "Well, my dog's cute as hell and so is that one down the street--lets get them together!!" Also when bite stats and health problems in general are being reported, the "pugle" doesn't get named, the pug does, or the beagle (or poodle, or what ever the heck other "le" they crossed the damn thing with) So now you have people who couldnt' read or decipher a pedigree if their life depended on, have no freakin clue what health problems may be back in that line, have no clue about genetics and couldnt' tell you what a dominent or recessive gene is. Frankly it slaps in the face of people who do know what they're doing and spend hours upon hours reading pedigrees, looking at genetics studies and piecing together things like "white boxers of most often deaf--now what do we do to ensure no white ones?" "black sable shepherds have significantly more undercoat, breeding a black dog to a black dog in the german shepherd world will always get you a litter of solid blacks" That sort of thing. These are efforts that are important in the dog world to stop and squash the exact things you are talking about and when Mary and Ed set up Fifi the shih tzu with Frank the poodle, they are doing nothign better than breeding a bunch of unknown genetic rubix cubes. Do Mary and Ed offer a guarentee? What about when Bill and Jane decide they can't keep lil Frank Jr. will Mary and Ed take Frank back? Did all parties involved do all health testing to discover if Fifi and Frank were actually suitable to be bred. Do Mary and Ed know all the genetic problems that could happen to warn their owners about? More importantly....what did Mary and Ed and big Frank's owners do to PROVE their dogs were going to BETTER the dog world. If breeding Fifi & Frank isn't something that's going to better the dog world than they NEVER should have been bred in the first place. A bad breeder is the breeder who breeds just to get puppies. A good breeder takes 2 PROVEN dogs, dogs that other professionals have agreed on are a healthy (mentally and physically) speciman of "Dogdom", she reads pedigrees and she hopes that when those 2 dogs are bred that they will produce pups BETTER than themselves. THAT is the reason to breed dogs, not because "Fluffy is just so cute and the best darned doggers in the world"

Originally Posted by boongirl

Shannon, I am very surprised you are still trying to make this argument. I recall having a discussion here at MDC with you about this exact topic a few months back. First of all, my labradoodle is WAAAAAAYYYY cuter than any lab or poodle. We get stopped all the time with people saying he is the cutest dog they have ever seen. Second, I hate the way labs smell and the way poodles look. My dh wanted one or the other so this, for us, was a golden compromise. Third, we got ours from a respectable breeder. We did our research well and got the dog we dreamed of getting. He is gentle, kind, sweet, loving, and has all the great qualities of the poodle and the lab. Fourth, the only bad qualities he has, so far, are a really annoying yelping bark (poodle) and believing himself a canine vacuum cleaner (lab). Otherwise, we got exactly what we had hoped in a labradoodle and he was worth literally every penny he cost. Fifth, inbreeding of dogs causes a lot of genetic and health problems for dogs. Mutts are less likely to have genetic health problems. So, logically, crossing two breeds is going to give you fewer genetic health problems than buying an inbred dog. Of course, crossing does not guarantee good health but at least the dog is not going to be predisposed to a genetic health issue.

I'm still making the argument because I've never changed my stance, I can't believe you're still making the argument for this practice. My dog is CUTE is absolutely NOT an argument for breeding a bunch of mutts and calling them purebred. Good breeders do no "inbreed" Actually most "inbreeding" happens among the circles that think they can make these dogs in to breeds. They don't have time to allow it to happen so they breed a labradoodle or whatever other doodle they can find to another one, well that's great, look at your rather shallow gene pool!! This happened with "Shiloh" Shepherds--they took a couple big ass oversized dogs and bred them together--I wonder why the breed is plaqued with seizure disorders and hip dysplasia? Logically crossing 2 dogs in no way gives you fewer genetic health problems, responsible breeders figuring out what dog was throwing the genetic problem who spend thousands and thousands of dollars while striving to improve the health of their breed gives you a better chance--when you cross 2 dogs randomly you don't have a bloody clue what you are crossing. Did you know that if you double up on Rio Valles Nestle Crunch (as in ANYWHERE in your pedigree) you can almost assure yourself of a whole litter of dysplastic pups. Crunch had great hips, he was quite the dog and an irresponsible breeder has no idea that doubling up on him will give you problems....a good one KNOWS.

Originally Posted by boongirl

And, some of these crosses really are adorable. Today, I saw the cutest little dog I've ever seen. (Mine is the cutest large dog. ) His lady got him from a shelter and all she knew was that he was part poodle. He looked like Benji with a kinky perm!

Again, adorable is NOT a reason to breed a bunch of dogs, lots of dogs that are killed at the pound were adorable too. There's nothing terribly adorable about putting them in the freezer. All puppies are cute. If you really think the only way to get adorable is to cross a couple breeds, you shouldn't be in the dog business.