Watching others discipline. What would you do?

[Gene]

In my job, I see lots of parents and kids. Today, a mom lightly smacked her 6yo son's head when he was acting out. I didn't say anything (they were leaving my office). And since I'm in a position of power (and am legally required to report abuse), this was a judgement call on my part. At what point do y'all consider it "abuse"?

[rmzbm]

I would NOT turn that in as abuse...nor would I a spanking, slapping or anything of the like. Weather it's right or wrong parents who spank do NOT deserve to lose their DC forever, and I would ONLY call if I felt that exact thing happening (permanantly losing their DC) was in the best interests of the child. Because, with CPS, it's a real possibility.

[morning glory]

I don't consider that abuse...more like ineffective parenting. And I think reporting that as abuse would do two things...

1)Cause a lot of havoc for a family that might not parent the way you do or would but still loves their childern and does what is best for them.

2)Take time and attention away from situations where real abuse is occuring. There are only so many people out there to investigate allegations of abuse. If they are looking into a light smack on the head is there a child being beaten with a broomstick getting over looked?

I think not reporting it was the right choice. If they came in again and the mother was the same way you might want to say something about it to her.

Casey

[mbravebird]

I would frame your office as a place that is not for hitting, where instead you all get the opportunity to try new and different things. (I'm assuming you're a counselor of some type???) Whether or not you say that to her in front of the son is your call. You don't want to shame her 'cause that usually doesn't result in much trust, but you also want the son to feel what it's like to have a boundary set and have someone stand up for his worth. Your call...

I would also see it as an opportunity to talk with her about "habits" that might not be accomplishing what she wants them to -- i.e. hitting as one of those. Use it as a way to talk about what she is trying to accomplish, what she wants for her son and her family. We all have dreams and hopes, no matter how off base we are. I say try to access those before you pull the abuse card.

I also know that a slap on the back of the head would not be considered abuse by DSS. If in doubt, you can call DSS and run a "hypothetical" by them. They'll do this with professionals, where as they won't with us mere mortals.

Good luck...!

[morning glory]

I would NOT turn that in as abuse...nor would I a spanking, slapping or anything of the like. Weather it's right or wrong parents who spank do NOT deserve to lose their DC forever, and I would ONLY call if I felt that exact thing happening (permanantly losing their DC) was in the best interests of the child. Because, with CPS, it's a real possibility

.

Oh that'll teach me for not reading replies first...

I agree completely.

Casey

[Bestbirths]

I wouldn't turn it in either, but I would look for an opportunity to recommend resources in the community. I would think that people who are at the hospital because they have very ill people in their family and are going through the most stressful times of their lives. When we used to spank, it was during these overwhelming times of crisis when the spanking or "tacky parenting" would become more prevelant. I think that as a physician, you could recognize the extreme stress that families are under and it would be within your scope (I think) to be able to recommend things. I can think of a lot of community resources we have here for support of people going through illnesses....I would have a flyer or handout with resources for dealing with the stress and keeping parenting positive during hard times. Here in our town we have this whole foundation that supports people with chronic illnesses and their caregivers with all kinds of free classes from parenting, to yoga, to dealing with grief. I would let the families know about services that are available like this.

[jenmk]

A little OT . . .

Seems as if you'd be free to say something about treatment like that, even though it's not something you'd report. And perhaps your position of power would increase the power of your words against treating a child poorly. (I'm not suggesting you threaten or manipulate through fear . . . just that you're in a good position that parents might listen to you.) You might also want to have info that parents can read about the detrimental effects of hitting a child.

[Gene]

Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

[rmzbm]

Originally Posted by Gene

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

My baby hasn't ever been to a Dr. - but with my 1st 3, no...never mentioned at all.

[mike]

Even some of the most prospanking people think its wrong to hit someone in the head.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Gene

Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

Mine just did at the 2-yr visit, she asked how things were going and I said, you know, the usual toddler stuff, but we're handling it fine and I think she mentioned something about time outs as a safe alternative to some other approaches, so I assured her we're WAY into GD and it was not a concern, but appreciated the effort.

If I do remember correctly, the AAP has a statement against spanking; that would likely be easy to print out and have available for people, if you're thinking of going in that direction. Lemme see if I can find it...

yup - here it is: AAP statement

I'm not entirely sure of your position (you're a Ped, I'm guessing, based on your question above), but I think this would be easy enough to duplicate and have this handy, along with maybe a couple other web pages printed out from say, the natural chidl project or something like that...I do recall that at every well-child visit, my office would hand out developmental stuff, so maybe this would be a good one to hand out starting around 12 months and do it through 3 or 4 years old or so - like every well visit, kind of drive the point home

HTH.

[Bridge's Mom]

People Are Not For Hitting

Hi,

I am new to this group and thought I would give my reply a whirl. How do I find out about the abreviations DD, DS and what that all means?

Regarding this topic, I would speak up. Gently and firmly state that people are not for hitting. Hitting creates shame, punishment, and ill will. I consider slapping, spanking, etc. abuse. I consider yelling abuse. These abuses affect a person's psyche, physicality, emotionality, etc. I am senstive to all of these things and life long results that accumulate. I am also human so here is what I have done and here is what has helped me.

I was in a sports store with my husband and son when another little boy took a ball from my son. My son (22 months at the time) asked for the ball back. The boy (probably 5) pretended to throw the ball (psyched him out) then accidentally hit my son on the nose with the ball. The boy's father wacked him pretty hard and called him something in a foreign language. My husband shielded my son. I stood by the little boy, put my arm around him and said, please do not hit your son because that is how he learns to hurt other people. The man became very calm and very quiet. I too, being a previous teacher, thought this is reportable and I also have compassion for the wounds that are being passed down from generation to generation, so I decided to speak up and hopefully that helped.

I did that because when I was my lesser self and acting anxious in front of my son, I had a calm mom ask me what was going on and if I needed help. Just someone tuning in and caring was enough to support my shifting in the moment.

Much love and peace

[Bridge's Mom]

A child's perspective

One more thing, from a child's perspective. If a child is acting out that is a message for the adults to tune into, they want or need something and need to be shown how to meet that need. I sure wish as a child, an adult would have intervened when my parents lost control

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by Bridge's Mom

Hi,

I am new to this group and thought I would give my reply a whirl. How do I find out about the abreviations DD, DS and what that all means?

Welcome! Here you go:
Abbreviations

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by Gene

Yeah, I often talk about ways to discipline that are more effective. This mom was really at the end of her rope...

Out of curiosity, do any of your Peds talk about discipline?

oooohhh and how MUCH!!!!
this is Switzerland here and (much as I actively try avoiding peds who talk about discipline) I have had to listen to:
- how the fact that I do not let my kids CIO (I did not mention we cosleep, God forbid) will lead them to being needy, not adapting to school etc.
- how the fact that I let my dd (at the time 2 yo) "have her way all time" (because during the visit, while I had been talking to the ped for 20 minutes and she had been an angel, asked me at one point if she could exchange seats with me, and I let her) caused her to have eczema!!!!!! (this was a omeopathic doctor....stopped going there of course...)
and many more instances I now have forgotten.
I am sorry I am rambling and totally OT but please forgive me, I need to get this off my chest sometimes...
Anyway, I second other people's idea of making a note of what happens and telling the mom (in private, next time she comes for a visit) if she would like some advice on discipline and if she wants advice just give her some handouts or website addresses and tell her if she is interested you are willing to talk to her (but not in front of dc).
Frankly, I do not think it is OK for a doctor to impose his/her views if the parents do not wish him/her to do so. Although I can laugh about what the doctors said, it was very painful for me at the time, because although it seems childish, you still trust a doctor, and to imply in any way I was causing my dd eczema that was just very mean...
Sorry, getting emotional...

[Three~Little~Birds]

[QUOTE=morning glory]I don't consider that abuse...more like ineffective parenting.

Ditto!

[Plummeting]

I definitely wouldn't call CPS for that! That is way, way over the line. I strongly disagree with hitting, tapping, smacking, spanking or whatever else anyone wants to call it. I think it should all be illegal. However, I do not think it would be in a child's best interest to be snatched from his parents over something like that.

I personally don't listen to anything a ped says about discipline. However, I imagine the type of person that would hit their child is a lot different than me, and would probably view a doctor as a trusted advisor, so they may be interested in what you have to say regarding discipline.

ETA: I do think it is always the right thing to step in when a child is being hit. I just don't think pulling rank as a pediatrician is a great way to do it.

[Bridge's Mom]

Thank you so much for welcoming me and assisting me with abbreviations!

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

When I was in a position as a "required reporter", I had to take a class that very clearly outlined the types of situations that would require a report. I was a youth group leader at church. You mean that Peds. don't even have that much training? Yikes!! The guideline was "any physical abuse that leaves a mark, any sexual abuse at all (including things far short of actual sex), and any consistant pattern of emotional abuse." While I don't advocate or approve of many of the discipline practices that leaves "uncovered", I think its a reasonable stardard for when to get others involved.

I, for one and speaking only for myself, have no interest in hearing about discipline from my children's doctors. In that area, they can have all sorts of different approaches, some of which are repellent to me, and they generally don't know any more than I do. If someone is interested, they will ask. And then I think its OK to present recommendations and such. But I don't want unsolicited advise on anything other than pure medical issues.

I hate to react negatively to a new person, but this really bothers me:

Regarding this topic, I would speak up. Gently and firmly state that people are not for hitting. Hitting creates shame, punishment, and ill will. I consider slapping, spanking, etc. abuse. I consider yelling abuse. These abuses affect a person's psyche, physicality, emotionality, etc.

While it is true that yelling at children isn't good for them, I have a real probably with classifying poor or ineffective discipline practices as abuse. If we call even yelling abuse, then what do we call the cases of real, physically harming a child for life, sorts of things? If shaming is abuse, then what do we call those incidents that caused such trama that they are forever burned into the minds of the chilren who suffered, even if they didn't cause lasting physical harm? As you can guess, I could give you some real lovely stories from my own life. And I feel that calling every little "less than perfect" parenting move as abuse trivializes actual abuse.

And if you label everything short of perfect GD parenting as abuse, then how do you deal with it when you lose it? Which we all do, at least occassionally. If its abuse to yell, then how do you deal with yourself when you yell, even if it's only once in a great while?

[emma_goldman]

My ped has a sign in the waiting room that reads "this is a spank-free zone" and something else in smaller letters explaining that hitting kids teaches them to hit....
Maybe you could print out something like this and frame it! It would be food-for-thought for so many...