Watching others discipline. What would you do? - Page 3

[Storm Bride]

If someone had offered me more chlidcare, I think my head would have exploded. I was only seeing my son for 3-4 hours a day during the week as it was! I had a job. My ex didn't want help with his addictions. I suppose counselling might have helped, but it would have taken time...more or less than it took me to figure out myself that I had leave?...I don't know.

I highly doubt that any of my neighbours knew there was a problem. If/when they heard me screaming, the probably thought it was a fight with my ex. I'm not sure what help they could have offered me, anyway. Child care was NOT what I needed. I wanted to be home with my son, and somehow, I don't think my neighbours were going to offer to pay the rent and buy me food so that I could do that. A hotline number might have been useful, but, without having tried it, I really don't know.

I don't think CPS will automatically take a child. But, I know that it does NOT take "quite a lot" for them to do so. I've seen it happen. I followed the entire court case, beginning to end, including the transcript of the complainant's testimony. I saw three children kept from their parents for a year (they got a few supervised visits - Christmas and such), then returned, as if nothing had ever happened. I've known a total of six families who have had CPS involved in their lives. In one of those cases, she ended up better off (and that was the girl who was being sexually abused and buying drugs in foster care). In every other case, they did huge damage to the family, including the children, then went on their merry way. I hope the people who called feel better about themselves, because it would be nice if someone benefitted from their interference.

[lilylove]

I had CPS threaten to seek custody of my child because we were refusing eye prophylaxis after his birth. The agent told us she could and would seek custody over this.
My point? If that agent had that kind of power and was willing to use it over something like that, then you don't know what could happen if you call them for something that, potentially, could be a misunderstanding. I don't think CPS is evil or corrupt. I believe they are needed and helpfull sometimes, but why call them if you could offer help in a way that does not have the same risks?

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by lilylove

but why call them if you could offer help in a way that does not have the same risks?

This is my point exactly. I think that protecting children from violence is the business of ALL of us. There are so many programs out there available to help people that do not involve removing children from the home. Also, I don't think we should underestimate the value of reaching out to friends, neighbors, relatives. I think what I react negatively to is the view that how other people treat "their" children is none of our business. I think that violence against children IS society's business. Just as domestic violence against adults is.

After all, it is in society's best interest to help parents parent well. Education and prevention are so much more valuable than judgment and punishment, IMO. Of course, if I see a child at risk of injury or death, I am on the phone calling 911 first, CPS second.

[Storm Bride]

Well, I'd certainly be willing to pass on contact numbers and such if I noticed someone who needed them. I could certainly see that making some difference, depending on circumstances. (It's certainly more helpful than the guy who stood on his balcony yelling at me, because I was yelling at ds1 for dawdling...having someone bitch me out publicly didn't do much for my screaming headache, hacking cough, or sore arms from lugging heavy groceries. It just made me feel even worse about not being able to cope just then.)

But, as I said, I wouldn't call CPS unless I felt the child was in danger of massive injury or death. CPS is too often a cure worse than the disease, imo.

[Brigianna]

To clarify, I wouldn't call cps over "spanking," ie a slap on the butt. That is wrong, but unfortunately it isn't illegal. I report illegal things. Hitting a child under age 2 is automatically abuse, even if it's "only" a slap on the butt. So I report that. I reported the man in the store who beat the barely-standing baby on the bottoms of her feet until she screamed (calmly, I might add, and with none of the other people, including store security, even taking notice). I reported the woman who literally dragged the toddler down the sidewalk while beating him. I reported the family who had a baby sitting unsecured on an adult's lap in the back of a pickup truck going 50 mph down the state highway. I reported the woman who left her baby and toddler home alone while she went out.

I'm not talking about a loving parent who snaps. Believe me, I've *been* that parent. Not to the point of hitting, but still, not what my kids deserve. But these people go way, way beyond that.

Maybe I'm just being jaded and cynical, but in my own opinion, if your conscience and/or common sense doesn't tell you that slapping a toddler so hard that he falls over, then picking him up and slapping him again, is not something you should be doing, I don't think friendly advice is going to convince you. Child abuse is a way of life for these people. And they are *defensive* about it. They have a massive persecution complex--we "godless liberals" are taking away their "right" to "discipline" their children. Again, perhaps I'm just jaded and cynical, but it seems to me that the only thing radical authoritarians respect is authority. In this case, the authority of the state.

And, at least where I live, cps doesn't take children away for things like that. They do a cursory "investigation" and they give a warning. They write it in a file. At most, they assign parenting classes. They don't have the budget to actually enforce the law.

I do understand the other side. I was investigated by cps when dd was a baby. We have all heard these stories about cps taking children for things like homeschooling or co-sleeping. And I am very, very sensitive about any kind of abuse of power. But as offended as I am by these things, I have reformed my opinion about it. It's like airport security--if they don't search me, they won't search the bad guys. Yes, there are bad cps people, just like there are bad police, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't report crime.

I'm sorry if I sound judgmental, but, well, I am. I believe that treatment of children is the great moral issue of our time. If there were an adult treating another adult the way these people treat their children, would we say he needs help or education, or he needs jail? Don't children deserve at least as much?

[Plummeting]

Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!

Likewise. I've never seen anything that bad. I have heard a lot of scary stories about the kids who slip through the cracks, and it boggles my mind. They hang around someone's house for weeks, because a neighbour said that the kids hadn't been outside in a month. (Everyone in the complex has kids, so how could the neighbour even know, unless she's been inside all that time, herself?) They pull someone's kids out of bed in the middle of the night, based on one accusation of one incident of sexual abuse that allegedly happened 13 years prior. Yet, children are taken in by concerned relatives (eyewitnesses in some cases) with bruises and bone-breaks, and nothing is done? I don't get the way they think at all.

[aira]

I think peds have no business telling parents how to raise their kids. It's an abuse of perceived authority. For example, the AAP statement about co-sleeping is just undefendable to me, as there is solid evidence that it is a boon to children's health. (A strong warning about intoxication would have been better.)

HOWEVER!

This child is your patient, and he was being hit by his mother. I doubt it's CPS worthy, but at a minimum every citizen, and that includes peds, has an obligation to speak up for hurting kids - whether anyone calls it abuse, assault, or "ineffective parenting". (For me, the way to tell is if I did the act in question to a stanger in the park, what would it be called?)

I like the idea of a sign. I also think that printing up articles is a good idea. But talking about how the "smacking" (whatever that mom calls it) will affect your patient is relevant to his care. I will be happy to help you find some articles with the relevant info if you want!

[aira]

About the question of whether our peds talk to us about discipline...

There are 2 categories to me. When he asks about DS's responses to us and "boundaries" and "limits" - a concept I don't subscribe to in the usual way - I assume he is interested in the developmental issues about that, and further assume that he frames his questions that way because that is his paradigm. I never feel like having a discussion about the difference when we are there, as DS is always under much stress, and I just answer the questions as honestly as I can within that framework. It tells him what he needs to know.

The other category is when it really crosses over into advice, or endorsement of how to parent in a way that has no proven benefit to the child. In other words, preferences or prejudices. For example, as I mentioned in the last post, I think sleeping (namely how to help kids get it) is in the domain of parenting, not medical care. Co-sleeping, CIO, and night-nursing are not medical sleep issues, except that CIO and milk-withholding is abusive and harmful to the patients the ped should be advocating for. I have told this to my ped (who I like very much) after disecting an article he posted in his exam room, which with rather poor logic and an authoritarian tone admonished parents to CIO.

To me the line does not distinguish whether peds should offer advice or not, but that peds should advocate for their patients - and the line is drawn between practices that are clearly beneficial and those that are demonstratively harmful.

Hitting is harmful. Stopping it benefits your patient.

JM.02

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by Plummeting

Thanks for the clarification, Brigianna. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I have to say though, I'm glad I don't live wherever you live! I've never witnessed anything as awful as any of the things you mentioned!

ETA: Not glad I don't live there because you're there, but because it sounds like there are a lot of mean parents there!

There are. But I'm working a little revolution over here, persuading the persuadables, undermining the anti-child propaganda, stalking the church nursury...

[Brigianna]

About peds, I think it's pretty pathetic how doctors are deified in mainstream society. But, with that being the case, I think pro-childrens-rights doctors should use their undue influence for good rather than evil.

[aira]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

But I'm working a little revolution over here, persuading the persuadables, undermining the anti-child propaganda, stalking the church nursury...

Rock on!

[Mama8]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

I have cps on speed-dial on my cell phone.

It must be kept in mind that any time CPS is called a parent could loose a child. Though I am a gd parent and think any hitting of a child is wrong. In the OP a child being removed from the parents I believe causes more damage than did the light hit on the head. I think a way better option is educating the parent and creating a no hit zone in the office.

[Ayala Eilon]

I would not report, but yes intervene. The child assumes it is all right to be treated this way when another adult endorses it by silence. Someone must stand up for him.

And, its not too late. You can share with him in a meeting.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by aira

. . . peds should advocate for their patients - and the line is drawn between practices that are clearly beneficial and those that are demonstratively harmful.

THANK YOU for this wonderful insight, aira!