I can control Mommy, but not Daddy

[emdeecee_sierra]

This from my 4 year old. Said very matter-of-factly to the whole family. Daddy (who leans toward spanking) is quite smug (I told you so, my way is better). Now for as to what 'controlling Mommy' means- backtalk constantly; refusal to do anything requested (clear table, brush hair, pick up clothes or toys; ignoring every request or demand by me (leave the puppy alone now, etc.); refusal to comply with (sorry if not GD, I use it when desperate) standing in corner protocol (instead screams, flops to the floor, simply walks away from the corner if she even gets there in the first place [placed there or goes of own accord initially], never just faces the wall/corner and waits quietly)- unless Daddy is the one sending or is nearby in the house. I have been trying to adhere more to the "feet first, then mouth" idea for myself, but her game in that instance is to run away from me, or to flop to the floor.

Even our quiet moments of snuggling are tainted with scowls directed at me, demands, and backtalk, snippy language, fierce "no!"s to just about anything. I am so sad and getting worn out. Her 'control' comment has me dreading what life with her will be like particularly 10 years from now. If she thinks she can "control Mommy" at 4, what will she be like at 14?!?!!?

She is becoming so mean and unpleasant to be around, and that goes for everyone. She is mean and underhanded with her younger sibling, and instigates fights with the older. Calls them both 'stupid' and 'yucky' with regularity.

She used to be the sweetest person I had ever known. Now there is hardly a trace of that child left. What am I doing wrong? How can I make it right?

[monkey's mom]

Do you think she could just be modelling back what she's feeling has been done to her? Like she feels controlled and pushed around and she's going to do it to whomever else she can--except for the person she fears (her dad).

Seems like so many kids I know who have stuff "done TO them" (and by that I mean, punishment and things just taken out of their control), really seek to do stuff to OTHERS--because either it's just what they know and/or b/c it's a way to get a little power back.

I don't know. I don't want to judge your situation, just asking some questions to see if you can get to the root of the problem.

I'm sure some people think that the problem is not enough discipline (read "consequences" or punishment), but I would venture that it's too much of that.

Would you be open to a more consensual approach, where you and your kid try to find solutions which meet your needs and her's?

[OakBerry]

I go through this with my ds too. He will be 4 in a few months.
I've noticed that he responds much better to dh than to me. Neither one of us spank but we do use modified time outs.

I think in my case, the main reason is consistency. Dh is much more consistent with discipline than I am. He doesn't like to negotiate so things tend to be either yes or no and that's the end of it. He also does not allow back talking or mean tone of voice directed at him. He doesn't yell, spank or riducule. He uses a calm voice. He doesn believe and uses time outs though.
I tend to be less consistent. I get tired, I let certain behaviors slide. I wait till ds is doing something for the 5th time before I speak to him about it, then I tend to yell. I also tend to argue with ds too much, instead of just being calm and consise.

I am home all the time with ds, and dh isn't. This also is the reason why dh is much more calm, cool and collected than I am, because for him, it's the first time he's seen ds's behavior that day. For me, it's the 50th time..:

A new thing I've tried is not yelling and trying to be more respectful of ds. I think alot of his backtalk and yelling was a direct result of him mimicking me. So now I tell him that I will treat him respectfully and not yell and he must do the same to me. I tell him rude tone of voice and yelling at me is not acceptable and to try again in a nicer way.
I've also been physically intervening more. If he's teasing the cat, I go right to him and take him by the hand, crouch down and talk to him about it. I did this when he was one and two, and it's coming back full circle.

[DevaMajka]

ummm, I think it is totally 100% developmentally appropriate human behavior to not want to stand in the corner. And to fight it.
We were put in the corner when we were young, and I can guarantee that it didn't make me feel like being more cooperative. Any "improvement in behavior" just comes out of fear of having to do it again.
It seems that she definitely does not seem respected, and she's fighting wherever possible. Find ways to help her do the socially acceptable thing, that doesn't rely on you controlling her. Because the whole thing seems like one big power struggle. Have you ever walked a dog, and noticed that if you pull on their leash, one common reaction is to pull the other way? Same thing happens with kids (well, all people really).
Perhaps read "hold on to your kids." I really like what he says about parental authority being based on attachment. He says if you need to enforce your authority, that's a sign that your attachment needs working on.

Good luck

[Yoshua]

at that age not listening is fairly normal.


However for the smug husband.


He is teaching his daughter not to listen to mom. Mom won't spank me, I don't have to listen to her.


She fears the spanking more than she understands the discipline. So in affect your husband is undermining your methods, not proving his work better.

just my .02¢

[oliversmum2000]

maybe she feels safer with you and can express all the hurt that she feels

we always take these things out on the people we love the most

if direct commands are not working try a few days without any, just a thought, i know when i tell ds to do something he generally says 'NO' if i talk around it it helps, sorry tired brain cant explain better, sick child syndrome!

i am just guessing that she feels safe to express herself with you

[Tinas3muskateers]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

at that age not listening is fairly normal.


However for the smug husband.


He is teaching his daughter not to listen to mom. Mom won't spank me, I don't have to listen to her.


She fears the spanking more than she understands the discipline. So in affect your husband is undermining your methods, not proving his work better.

just my .02¢

I agree with this poster. Your DD is so affraid of being spanked any punishment you dish out is cake to her. She is going to pull your strings any chance she can because of that. You need to have a serious talk with your DH about what your family plan is for teaching your kids.

[Piglet68]

ITA with oliversmum. She doesn't feel as "emotionally safe" with your DH, so she is on her "good behaviour". I'll be you anything if she was in school or a daycare your care providers would report that she is just fine with them, too.

But I also think that you can make some changes to the way you are responding to her. You two are getting into power struggles, and as the adult it is up to you to avoid them and diffuse them when they happen.

Backtalk: ignore it. Don't react to it. When it loses it's power, she'll give up on it. Don't ignore HER, don't walk out on her or ignore her with your eyes or body language, but do not respond to backtalk.

refusal to do anything requested: typical of a child (or adult, for that matter) who feels dominated and controlled. why should she help you when she is busy fighting for her own control? first, make helping optional. Ask her for help, but if she says no, just say "okay, fine". If you need her to do something and she is balking, go over to her and help her. Try to distract her with conversation, or give her some choices to make, or (usually this works best) be a Playful Parent. I know the last thing in the world you probably feel like doing is putting on a clown act, but honestly I think a good laugh from her will elicit a good laugh from you and there is nothing like sharing a good laugh to bring you two closer together.

I know how you feel about not wanting to be around her, not enjoying her, etc. I felt this way last year when my DD turned 3 and I was caught offguard by her behaviours. But when I went the punitive/consequenes route (not on purpose, I just kind of ended up there) things just kept getting worse. Using the above we got through it just fine.

Just remember this truth: When children are at their worst, that is when they need us the most.

[speairson]

Originally Posted by Yoshua

at that age not listening is fairly normal.


However for the smug husband.


He is teaching his daughter not to listen to mom. Mom won't spank me, I don't have to listen to her.


She fears the spanking more than she understands the discipline. So in affect your husband is undermining your methods, not proving his work better.

just my .02¢

I totally agree with this. I also think the smugness of your dh reinforces your dd's attitude and behavior toward you. He should have told her that mommy and daddy are a team and that everyone has control of only themselves.

[julia_anne]

to be totally honest I agree with your husband. Children do need to be taught to respect their parents

[oliversmum2000]

to the pp you were being ironic - right?

[oliversmum2000]

oops double post

[DoulaClara]

Julia Anne: linky

[irinam]

Fear at this age is stronger emotion than compassion. Fear is stronger than desire to cooperate. She is being “taught” to do things out of fear.

At this point your DH’s actions will probably thwart most of your efforts for Gentle Discipline .

I hope so much that you can get him to see things differently. Will he read any books (we have a sticky on top that lists many wonderful books)?

[irinam]

Originally Posted by julia_anne

Children do need to be taught to respect their parents

I disagree.

Respect is deserved, not taught. I highly respected several professors in my colledge. I respect my husband. I respect my friends.

Neither of them "taught" me to respect them. They deserved it.

If respect has to be taught, it's not a true respect.

[eloise24]

Is your daughter afraid of her dad? I don't remember you mentioning that in your post at all. Perhaps she is a stronger-willed child, who simply respects him more because he disciplines her more. I got spanked as a kid but wasn't afraid of my parents (spanking doesn't always equal fear). Anyway, I don't think your post was to debate spanking, but for help with your daughter.

I would try to focus on your parenting right now. Read some books (like the pp mentioned, there are lots in the sticky). Try to be super consistent with your daughter, even when you're tired and frustrated. And remember that kids pull away from parents around age 2, 5 and as teens. Figure out what kind of discipline (natural consequences or whatever you want to call it) you do belive in and DO IT.

[SAHdad]

I dont think Gentle discipline can work effectively unless both parents are promoting it. If one parent is leaning more towards a strict form of discipline the child immeadiately views the consequences from that parent as being far worse than of the GD parent. In your case you DD "respects" your DH more because she see's his method as discipline and not yours. If your DH had not been so strict, and had modeled GD with you as she was growing up then your GD would be respected far more.

A brief example is if a child hits his/her sibling and the dad says, we dont hit your little brother/sister, it hurts to be hit and its not a good thing to do, redirects the child into a more interesting activity, then the child ceases the undesired behavior, and the GD worked.

However if later the child hits his/her sibling again, and mom uses a harsh tone; "no stop hitting your brother/sister!" picks up the child and spanks them. Now the child associates pain and anger with his action, this is something he strongly doesnt want to happen again. He ceases his behavior, however is terribly upset. In this case the strict discipline worked, but has the drawbacks of your child being in pain upset and potentially spiteful towards their younger sibling.

Both these methods can work, the degree of effectiveness is debatable, however when you combine them in the same household, inevitably the child is going to behave better around the srticter parent. The GD is going to be seen as trivial compared to any punishment handed down from the strict parent and the child will develop a sense of power over the GD parent, thinking they can get away with things with the GD parent.

I am at a loss as to how to resolve this situation once it starts. your DD has been exposed to this strict discipline, so she is going to naturally view the GD as "weaker" consequences for her actions. If your DH comes over to GD and by some miricaleadmits that his stricter ways were wrong, then your DD will likely feel she can now "control" both of you. If you give up your GD in favor of strict discipline you'll have to hold your entire household to it including any further children, otherwise your DD will wonder why the new baby gets in her eyes mollycoddled compared to the disc you need to do with her.



I know why your DD is acting this way but i really dont know how to offer you any advice... im sorry

[irinam]

Originally Posted by eloise24

Is your daughter afraid of her dad? I don't remember you mentioning that in your post at all.

I did not imply that her daughter has fear of her Dad. She does however has fear of punishment.

Discipline based on punishment is discipline based on fear.

Instead of helping to clean for the reason of having a nice house, kid will help clean for the fear of being punished if they don't (using cleaning as an example here)

[Piglet68]

I find it interesting that your DH is not concerned that your DD thinks it is "cool" to "control" someone. It seems he misses the point: it was he who taught her that controlling is a "good thing".

Not that I think she really understands what she is saying, but the fact that she is toying with this notion of control speaks volumes about what coercive parenting REALLY teaches children.....

Next time your DH gets smug, ask him if it was his goal as a parent to teach his child to seek "control" over others.