Spinoff: GD, eating, and sugar - Page 5

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by la mamita

So what do you do before your kid gets verbal enough to be able to share information and understand things like nutrition, healthy eating choices, etc?

Apparently, you haven't noticed, I just , even if it seems that no one is listening. We have been watching food due to an elimination diet since ds was 8 weeks old. So, he has always heard me 'talking out loud' about my/our food choices. He was basically exclusive breastfeed until 10-15 months. And I only *introduce* that which I believe won't hurt ds. As alternatives which have less nutrient value (or are food intolerances), but perhaps more taste value, according to ds's priorities, he has 100% free choice. Subsequently, as we *observe* behavioral changes, we discuss those: 'oh, that has artificial colors, it seems to have kept you awake last time you ate it'. And I select something as an alternative and offer it. 'How about this sweet thing instead?' And ds has free choice. For instance, I'll mention 'it is after 5 o'clock (he can't tell time), if you eat chocolate, it has caffeine and it has made it really hard to go to sleep. How about a popsicle or some jelly beans instead?' Still 100% free choice, but when something equal or better, according to ds's priorities, he will choose it. Sometimes he will say 'I want something cold', or 'I want some thing spicy, or sweet, or crunchy and we will find something with those characteristics that is preferable to him.

His self-awareness has developed from when something that we avoid due to food intolerances was available. For instance, we avoid dairy. So, when dairy ice cream was available, I might ask 'That has dairy in it. Are you wanting something sweet, or cold?' And he may say 'cold' and I could offer some sorbet. Or he may say 'sweet' and I might offer some snack from the car. Or he may be hungry and we would make an effort to meet his food preferences in that way. It is an on-going communication supporting his self-discovery through introspection. I just offer some of the unlimited possibilities so that he can choose optimally, according to him.

HTH, Pat

[4evermom]

"Sugar Addiction"

My experience with this is that if I eat a high glycemic index diet, I get hungry more often and tend to crave sweets. I wouldn't call this an addiction, it is just the result of eating foods that elevate my blood sugar quickly. All it takes for me to get out of this vicious cycle is to make a point of eating low glycemic index foods for a couple of days. Because I am aware of this, I don't worry so much about ds eating a lot of sugar. I know that it is just as easy for me to get out of that way of eating as to get into it. There is much being said in the media about how what a young child eats is setting up life long habits. That can certainly be the case if the family eats that way and knows no other way. But if the parents eat healthily and educate their children about nutrition, I don't think it is such a concern.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by irinam

Breastfeed? (Sorry Pat )

Yep, we did A LOT of that. Thankfully, since ds had so, so many food intolerances. And now he can eat pretty much anything in moderation. But, he avoids many of the foods so that when something he really has no substitute for is available, he enjoys it fully. He doesn't choose in a vaccuum, I am almost always available with information. But I stop once he makes a choice too. It is so much easier to start discussing all of this when they are young, imo.

Pat

[la mamita]

***

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

My experience with this is that if I eat a high glycemic index diet, I get hungry more often and tend to crave sweets. I wouldn't call this an addiction, it is just the result of eating foods that elevate my blood sugar quickly. All it takes for me to get out of this vicious cycle is to make a point of eating low glycemic index foods for a couple of days.

This is my own experience with my body too. I learned at 30-something that I had to eat protein to feel healthy. And then I can eat about anything and I don't have the sugar lows. Apparently, for many people, it really makes a difference if the first meal of the day includes protein. Ds is aware of this at 5. Most conventional "healthy" breakfast includes cereal, toast, fruit juice, but not protein. We try to eat protein in the morning and the whole day is smoother. And we don't worry about sugar quantity, as the sugar we have in the house doesn't include HFCS. HFCS causes our son to be physically aggressive, loud vocalizations and yelling. Sugar doesn't.

Pat

[aira]

Wanted to offer a book suggestion...

Sugar Blues, by William Dufty


An Oldie But Goodie.

[FreeRangeMama]

I believe the difference between "eat whatever you want" without parental involvement and without information; OR providing all natural options and *discussing* our observations and facilitating self-examination about how the child feels when they consume different foods is HUGE. I am often asking our son 'What do you think your body needs to feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you feel healthy and happy?', 'Do you need something sweet, cold, salty, spicy, crunchy, protein?', 'Are you hungry, tired, thirsty, excited, full of energy?'

If only it were that simple for all of us!

Honestly, not all people are like that. Some people become ADDICTED to the foods that hurt them. Like a DRUG. Of course eating that food feels good, it feels like a high. But it acts in the body like poison.

My ds would eat corn-derived foods all day if he could. It makes him high. He feels good when he eats it. It is addicting. If he did eat that way he could die. Its nearly happened more times than I would care to remember (before we figured out his allergies). If it didn't kill him it would likely increase some of his autistic "behaviours". Or he would become very ill later that day.

He craves the foods that hurt him, but he doesn't know they are hurting him. He was a self-regulated child for the first 3 years of his life. He chose things like organic yoghurt, whole wheat bread, , organic crackers with nut butter or cream cheese. Good healthy foods more often than not. Then he stopped eating. He stopped responding to us. He stopped breathing or woke up gasping for air. He vomitted several times a week. Apparently those "healthy" foods he was choosing (by himself with no restrainst from us) were hurting him.

It is naive to think that all bodies are the same. We are all built a little different. Just look at the vast difference in each pregnancy. At the many different types of breastfeeding experiences. In how differently people can experience the same virus.

Just because one method works for some families it doesn't mean it will work for everyone. Different children NEED different things. I am glad I learned this lesson for my ds before it was too late

[provocativa]

It's also interesting to read about underlying causes for sugar and other food cravings. Deficient intestinal flora (the yeast crave sugar, better bacteria smother out the yeast), plus junk can ferment in the gut with the yeast, producing alcohol (and therefore more addiction). Magnesium deficiencies relate to chocolate cravings. . . . It's only possible to be self-regulating if healthy.

[aira]

I agree.

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.

A body that is out of balance in any way will swing like a pendulum searching for balance - IME causing many more problems in it's quest.


.

[faeriewisp]

I think that 5 years old is too young to expect a child to make his own logical choices about food concerning the information we give them.

Just because we live in a society filled with choices does not mean that our children are suddenly born in this day and age able to make their own choices. Up until the past 50 years or so, children ate what they were given and they were given what the parents had. Kids did not used to go grocery shopping several times a week and see all the prettily wrapped junk.

I'm trying to raise my children as anti-consumers. I want them to be independent and able to make good choices, when they have the ability to logically think. Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.

I think 5 year olds should eat what is given to them, without having to question Is this junk? I really want to eat this even though my mom says it's junk.

I think it's important to offer regular wholesome meals as the norm. I want to give my kids a good basis for freedom and I don't think being bogged down with unnecessary choices is free.

I'm not saying we should never give our young children choices, I just really feel like food is a basic need I need to provide for my children. I don't feel like it's a born right for my daughter to get to choose everything she eats. THat's just not how it happens in the real, natural world.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by scubamama

This is my own experience with my body too. I learned at 30-something that I had to eat protein to feel healthy. And then I can eat about anything and I don't have the sugar lows. Apparently, for many people, it really makes a difference if the first meal of the day includes protein.

This is also me and it took me a LONG time to realize it, because I don't like protein the morning. I've started eating hard-boiled eggs, because they're about the only non-carb thing I can stomach when I first get up.

[Nora'sMama]

Originally Posted by faeriewisp

I think that 5 years old is too young to expect a child to make his own logical choices about food concerning the information we give them.

Just because we live in a society filled with choices does not mean that our children are suddenly born in this day and age able to make their own choices. Up until the past 50 years or so, children ate what they were given and they were given what the parents had. Kids did not used to go grocery shopping several times a week and see all the prettily wrapped junk.

I'm trying to raise my children as anti-consumers. I want them to be independent and able to make good choices, when they have the ability to logically think. Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.

I think 5 year olds should eat what is given to them, without having to question Is this junk? I really want to eat this even though my mom says it's junk.

I think it's important to offer regular wholesome meals as the norm. I want to give my kids a good basis for freedom and I don't think being bogged down with unnecessary choices is free.

I'm not saying we should never give our young children choices, I just really feel like food is a basic need I need to provide for my children. I don't feel like it's a born right for my daughter to get to choose everything she eats. THat's just not how it happens in the real, natural world.

:

[ShadowMom]

Originally Posted by colleen95

No, you're not the only one. We're still trying this. We do still struggle with doubt when we have the occasional days when ds wants large amounts of candy. This is not easy to do. But I still believe that allowing him to learn to self-regulate is the best choice for us. We've certainly had fewer food conflicts already.

I haven't had much time to keep up with this thread. Colleen, I just wanted to say I'm glad you're seeing good results. My DS was obsessed with the lollipops for about a day and now he has started to go back to being indifferent. Not there completely, but he's getting there.

it is really interesting to me. Now that he's older, it takes a MUCH shorter time for that to happen. I think he realized to some extent, on a more conscious level, that if something is kept in the house, it is there whenever he asks for it. So the whole process happens a lot faster. Although, we don't get to test the theory very often because food is not a big issue, UNLESS you count me wishing I didn't make everything from scratch and wishing we could eat at Sonic every night for the rest of our lives!

Anyway, I didn't want to breeze through the thread without replying to you.

[WuWei]

Faeriewisp, I disagree with your logic.

Lots of research shows logical thinking comes in around age 7-8.

For example, for the first time, my sister was going to take our son to the park while dh and I went to an early dinner. Ds, age 4.97, spontaneously says "Dada will need to pick you up at Aunt Sissy's and drive you to dinner. You will need to leave your car so that Sissy can drive us to the park." This type of awareness of cause and effect, or anticipatory projection was totally his *logic* regarding his need for a carseat to ride to the park. I had not suggested this as a problem to be solved. We had never had this situation occur before. But, our son considered with forethought the needs of the situation and created a logical solution which incorporated everyone's needs. Frankly, even I was amazed. However, he has always had the opportunity to negotiate for solutions which meet his needs and he has frequent practice incorporating other people's needs concurrently.

I believe "logic" is a skill that develops with practice and experience. To me it is logical that the earlier one starts relying on their own choices, and experiencing non-life threatening consequences (with the safety net of a supportive parent), the sooner they are *able* to use logic. The assumption upon which the quoted belief is made is self-fulfilling, imo. If we assume that our child isn't logical or can't think logically, then we obviously don't provide him with opportunities to use his own judgement. If we override his logic "for his own good", we short-circuit his learning potential, imo.

I don't believe that it is different for food choices, being tired enough to go to bed, clothing choices when it is cold, etc. I do agree that it is not "simple" to trust our child. And it is difficult to believe that information alone could be enough for him to make the choices we deem best. However, I do believe that our child has a strong survival instinct and is able to choose what is best for himself based upon his priorities. I don't believe that he has complete information. However, I don't believe that we, his parents, do either. Children are not evolved to make decisions in a vaccum, none of us are. But I don't believe that children will make life threatening ones if they have experience practicing their judgement with an attuned, attentive, supportive parent. This level of parental awareness, facilitation and engagement is easier with one child than several, I imagine. But that doesn't mean that children are not *able* to be logical until an older age. To me, it means that they haven't had the opportunity to develop the skills of logical decision making. Making decisions implies having a choice.

Granted, there are some few children who have a chemical reaction to some foods which impairs their judgement. However, we have found that despite our son having impaired judgement when he consumes dairy, artificial colors, flavors and some preservatives, or high fructose corn syrup, that he *does* choose not to consume them in large enough quantities to impair his judgement enough to be life threatening, damaging to property or harmful to others. And we do share information and observations regarding the effect of these foods on his body and behavior. And he chooses to consume plenty of variety in his diet which has helped him to remain quite healthy. I am not disputing any of FreeRangeMama's experience. It sounds quite frightening and life-threatening. But, sugar isn't causing anyone to stop breathing, from what I have heard.

Sometimes the Boogie Man isn't real.

Pat

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by provocativa

It's also interesting to read about underlying causes for sugar and other food cravings. Deficient intestinal flora (the yeast crave sugar, better bacteria smother out the yeast), plus junk can ferment in the gut with the yeast, producing alcohol (and therefore more addiction). Magnesium deficiencies relate to chocolate cravings. . . . It's only possible to be self-regulating if healthy.

Yes, THANK YOU for pointing this out. I think it's very important for people to understand this. If someone has problems with cravings, they should look at the underlying reason and FIX it. The craving itself is not the problem, the problem is whatever is causing the craving.

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.

A body that is out of balance in any way will swing like a pendulum searching for balance - IME causing many more problems in it's quest.

I agree!

[oceanbaby]

A body in 100% natural and healthy state is perfect at self-regulating.

Yes, but I believe it is impossible to be in a 100% natural and healthy state anymore, at least not while living in a modern culture. Our environment is full of toxins, pesticides, foods that have been leached of their nutritional value, polluted air, chemical laden water . . .

Scubamama - I philosophically like much of what you've had to say, but one aspect of it stands out for me. You've talked about how your son is free to make the choice after you've explained how it may make him act - moody, not sleeping well, etc. My issue with this is that the rest of us have to deal with that. It's not fair to me to have to deal with an overtired child who won't go to sleep just because he made the choice to eat six popsicles. It's not fair to his younger brother to deal with aggressive behavior because he chose to start his day out with leftover birthday cake. And I guess that's one of the reasons that I don't feel like just not having anything in the house is a good option - it's not fair that no one else gets to have a little sweet treat now and then because one child demands it all day long.

[Plummeting]

Originally Posted by oceanbaby

Yes, but I believe it is impossible to be in a 100% natural and healthy state anymore, at least not while living in a modern culture. Our environment is full of toxins, pesticides, foods that have been leached of their nutritional value, polluted air, chemical laden water . . .

Okay, no one has perfect health, but I still think we can come close enough that we can regulate our own bodies.....

[aira]

Originally Posted by scubamama

Granted, there are some few children who have a chemical reaction to some foods which impairs their judgement. However, we have found that despite our son having impaired judgement when he consumes dairy, artificial colors, flavors and some preservatives, or high fructose corn syrup, that he *does* choose not to consume them in large enough quantities to impair his judgement enough to be life threatening, damaging to property or harmful to others. And we do share information and observations regarding the effect of these foods on his body and behavior. And he chooses to consume plenty of variety in his diet which has helped him to remain quite healthy. I am not disputing any of FreeRangeMama's experience. It sounds quite frightening and life-threatening. But, sugar isn't causing anyone to stop breathing, from what I have heard.

Sometimes the Boogie Man isn't real.

Pat, I love what you have to say about how children develop logic skills. I agree 100%. I think that the issue here is all about how we define "food".

IMO, sugar is not a food. Not even the "organic" or "raw" stuff. I know that is an unpopular belief here - and everywhere - but the history of sugar production and consumption makes it pretty clear to me that it is not food.

Many of the additives and refined products that are commonly eaten I would not consider food. I would not have them accessable in the pantry any more than I would styrofoam. Even if everyone else on the planet decided that styrofoam was really tasty, gave you quick energy, and wasn't really too bad for you in small quantities... I just wouldn't agree.

For those things I consider non-foods, I believe there is no safe intake. Sure, there is a quantity that we can eat and not die. Even an amount that we can eat and get by without "serious" consequences. Until later... The sludge adds up after a while. It's not only the immediate or short-term responses to non-food that I'm concerned about for my family.

I'm trying to do more with my body than get by. I want to thrive. I want to live in a state of absolute optimal health physically, mentally, and emotionally. I want that for DS and DH too. The only means to that is eating foods we evolved to eat, in the way we evolved to eat them. I know there is no shortage of opinions about what that means. I have mine, based of what feels right and appeals to my logic. I certainly can't speak for everyone's experience.

Luckily, DH and I have always seen eye-to-eye on this one.

I feel that I owe DS an absolute free range of food choices... per my understanding of food. I wouldn't make alcohol, heroin, or cigarettes available either. They also don't fit in my definition of food. (Hyperbolic example, everyone. ) I simply can't be OK with spending a penny of our money on anything that will ultimately cause my family to suffer - either sooner or later.

Despite DH's and my request, he does get junk at the ILs and my mom's house. We talk to DS about it. As he gets older and has more independent access to food and non-food, we will keep the conversation going. And by conversation, I don't mean "lecture". But I will tell him what I know about what junk does to our bodies. Both how to tune into how his own body feels, and especially about the effects we can't immediately perceive.

I will let him know about what others have learned by the end of their lives, so that he doesn't have to live solely by trial-and-error until at age 65, he learns that the little bit of junk he liked to have everyday and thought was no problem, had caught up to him. I just owe him that wisdom. But I will not control his eating.

Maybe he will choose to eat junk, and if he does have health issues later because of it, at least he will have done so with all the knowledge I can give him about that possibility. It won't happen blindly.

Gotta go play trains again!!!!! Wish I could've polished this up a little bit...

[VelmaLou]

That is precisely what I wanted to write the other day!

[4evermom]

Slightly OT but relevant.

I think moms today have a harder job with dealing with food than in previous generations. When I was a kid, there weren't candy displays at every blessed store. Now, they are at the thrift stores, craft and cloth stores, and home centers as well as the convenience stores and grocery stores. I can't think of one place that I go that doesn't have a candy display. Oh, the paint store didn't have any, but I only go there every few years. Plus, there is such a greater variety of candy and snacks. Since it is unavoidable, it has to be dealt with somehow.