Help, I keep lecturing my 6 yo!

[VelmaLou]

I used to be a good TCS mama, but it seems I have fallen off the wagon.

Two of the many words I could use to describe my dd are sensitive and, um, somewhat obsessive.

The two main issues we are having these days is food choices and consumerism.

I don't like to see anyone in the family consuming junk food, especially high quantities of sugar and trans-fats. I ban all corn syrup and hydrogenated oils. But because we live in this area of the world, where we do not have access to organic, low-fat, low-sugar snack foods, I have been known to compromise and buy my daughter a snack containing the slightly less evil palm oil and sugar (I try not to think about GMOs right now because I would just drive myself crazy here). I label-read and comment on ingredients in front of her, often telling her why we can or why we cannot buy a certain product.

When I make these compromises, I tell her it's a special thing that we won't be doing very often. Now, how can that make any sense to a 6 yo? Why, if I'm willing to give it to her once am I not willing to give it to her anytime she asks? Because it's not good for her! And I can't get over that. So when she inevitably asks again I end up going on and on about nutrition, fun foods, growing foods, etc. I can't stop myself anymore! If I just had a darn health food store I would give her free reign on snacks!

And I'm not that strict! She loves chocolate and eats plenty of it (daily). I let her eat store-bought cookies that have unhydrogenated oil in them (something I still don't feel very comfortable about). She has had McDonald's when we have travelled and it's the only happy, colorful, clean (relatively) place with western toilets in the whole country! She also eats plenty of healthy snacks like fruit, dried fruits, nuts, yogurt, etc.

But when she wants the cookie sticks with the chocolate spread I can't resist the lecture. I emphasize a LOT, but then I get stuck in lecture mode.

So how does one maintain a respectful "fun foods" and "growing foods" policy in the house? I don't think lecturing is respectful -- or fun. This morning, for example, I reminded her that she hadn't eaten any fruit in the last two days. I hate that! I need a strategy to shut myself up!

Also, my daughter is a huge consumer! Or she would be if she had the means. My answer, last summer, was to start giving her an allowance. For a long time it really worked to keep her from asking for things every day. I could just say, "Well that sounds like a fun thing to buy! Why don't you buy it on Wednesday with your money?" And she stopped asking every day -- and just asked every few days when money day was.

But since we've moved here her requests have become non-stop again. And I mean, in one Saturday walk she will ask for five different things. "Mama, I wish I could have..." I empathize, suggest the allowance, provide ideas for homemade alternatives, talk about holidays, provide a timeline for when I could buy her a certain item, etc. Every single day we have a conversation about at least two items. This morning it was a bathrobe. She's been wanting one; they are not cheap here. I suggested buying one when it gets cold again, to which she rightly observed that papa uses his now even though it's hot. Yesterday it was the face paints (which she did purchase with her allowance, after saving for two weeks ) and something I can't remember. The day before that it was swimming stuff (mask, snorkel, flippers) and arts & crafts stuff. We'll get through the whole allowance, timeline, empathizing thing and not two minutes after we've finished she'll be on to another item. Often, it's snacks and drinks (so much so that we have a new policy that all snacks & drinks must be brought from home whenever we go for a walk or on a shopping trip). She also, very often, requests dinner at a restaurant (something we do about twice a month because it is very expensive here, unless there are visitors).

My dh and I have been very uncomfortable for a long time with her consumption pattern. Many, many of the things she buys (or are bought for her) are forgotten within a matter of hours, even the most coveted. And though I realize this is probably normal behavior, it's not part of our family's value system. And, yes, we do model simplicity. Although, yeah, now that I think of it, she did come along with us as we bought all the stuff we needed to fill up our new apartment. And she does come along to grocery shop.

So after an entire day of requests and empathizing and saying no as gently as possible, I get fed up and give the "money lecture:"
"You know, honey, we can't buy something every time we go out." "You know, honey, papa has to work to get the money we use to buy things." And the worst, "You know, honey, you have lots of stuff already in your room that you never even touch." Or "Remember the (fill in the blank)? You asked and asked and couldn't wait to get it! And now..."

Please, provide me with NVC articles, advice, suggestions, etc. I don't want to lecture. Thanks!

[Magella]

NVC: www.cnvc.org has a lot of articles, information about NVC, books. This has helped me reduce my lecturing a lot. And it has helped me learn to communicate more clearly and respectfully with my children, being honest and open about my concerns and listening to them respectfully and considering their concerns and needs (rather than just their behavior).

Another thing that has helped me reduce the amount of lecturing I do is just learning to let go. My kids like to buy a lot too, and it did used to bug me when I heard them asking/wishing to buy things all the time. But kids are going to ask, deciding for myself that they shouldn't be asking/wanting just makes us all miserable. There's nothing wrong with the wanting and the asking. We do sometimes discuss what is financially reasonable for our family, and we have talked about the fact that no one can buy everything that they want. But there's really no way to make them stop wanting, all I can do is live by example and not buy gobs of things myself.

As far as empathy goes, empathy followed by or mixed with a lecture or judgment or instruction/demand really doesn't help as much as just plain empathy. So when the kids want this or that then the next thing, it's most helpful just to say "oh, wouldn't that be fun!" and then we can indulge in some wishful thinking together. And I'll even sometimes say (when they're asking for lots of things) "you know what I wish? I wish I could buy everything I ever wanted. I'd buy this and that....What would you buy?" And it's fun. Mostly I think my kids like the idea of the things they see, and they want to know that their desires are okay and valid.

As far as food goes, can you enlist her help? Ask her for her input? We talk a lot in our house about how the foods we eat affect how we feel physically and emotionally. Recently, we (as a family) decided to eliminate certain foods for a time. Since we were doing this to see how some foods affect us, it was a science experiment and we called it such. This was appealing. We worked together to learn what foods we could eat, which foods we'd have to stop eating, and to pay attention to how our physical states and moods changed (if at all). I find my kids are very open and responsive and helpful when we respectfully discuss the nutritional value of foods and involve them in the decision making process. We had the issue of jelly-beans left over from Easter, which contained ingredients we've eliminated from our diet. They love jelly beans and there were so many. But though we planned to add some foods back into our diet, these ingredients are some we intend to avoid indefinitely. So I asked the kids: is it okay with you if we throw these away, since they have the dyes and corn syrup in them? I'm concerned that we won't feel good if we eat them, and I'm worried that if we keep them we'll keep wanting to eat them. So I'd prefer to throw them away. I'm willing to replace them with something else that doesn't have dyes and corn syrup, that will be healthier for us. And the kids agreed. They are 6, 4 and 2 years old. They are very capable of listening to and considering my concerns, so long as theirs are listened to and considered also.

[VelmaLou]

Thanks for answering!

I agree with what you write about empathy. The lecturing doesn't come immediately after it. I do all the things you do. Just, by the end of the day -- and I mean I can go with the requests and empathy for a looong time, IMO -- I get tired of it and end up lecturing.

Another thing is that I think I'm not clear on where the lecturing border is. Some of what you describe, like talking about physical states and moods, ends up feeling like a lecture after a certain point, KWIM?

[Magella]

I know what you mean about the end of the day! I still fall to lecturing when I'm running low on patience and energy.

I think it's a lecture when (and I'm talking about my own pov with my kids, here) it's no longer a two-way conversation, yk? When the kids are not interested in participating in a conversation, when they aren't interested in listening, it's a lecture. Or when it goes beyond a brief sentence or two that's needed to explain something. Does that make any sense? (Sometimes I feel like I'm having trouble actually saying what I mean.)

And one of the most helpful things for me to learn is to not expect that my empathy or explaining or requests will change how my kids behave. Of course I hope that it will eventually help them learn, but I'm setting myself up for frustration if I become attached to a particular outcome in terms of my child's behavior in any instance and then expect that my actions/words will result in that outcome. KWIM? So yes, I can just ooze empathy and patience but that doesn't mean my kids will stop asking to buy stuff. If I expect that, then I'm definitely going to become frustrated (and then I'm likely to lecture in the hope of sort of forcing the behavior to change, to convince them to behave differently, yk?). I can accept what's happening (not necessarily like it, or approve of it, just accept that it's happening) and find that I'm more at peace and effective solutions/responses are likely to just become apparent (because I'm living in the present and paying attention to what's happening). Or I can get stuck in wishing things were different and focusing on how I'd like my kids to be behaving or how I'd like my kids to be (which isn't real), and be less aware of what's happening right now, and be less likely to find an effective response and more likely to be frustrated.

When my goal is for my kids to be different, we all live in a state of frustration. When my goal is to be present and aware, and unconditionally love and resond compassionately to my children, we all grow and learn and are happier. It's a subtle but important difference in goals. That's doesn't sound like a practical suggestion and doesn't directly address the situations you described, but I've found that this is so very important to being able to address all the conflicts and issues that are part of parenting.

ETA did you see the thread on sugar and GD in this forum? Some good discussion there about foods and limiting certain foods. Their have been threads about this in the past here too, some very interesting ones. I don't have time to search for them and dig them up for you right now, but I would if I could. You could try a search for food-related threads if you have time. I also have this thought that if your 6 year old needs more clarity about when/if she can have the treats, maybe it would help for you to think about how much of that you're comfortable giving her and then set some very clear guidelines. This many per week, or this many per day, or only on certain days, or pick one treat during grocery shopping for the week, or anything that is very clear. This might help her understand, and it might (by being consistent and predictable) prevent her from constantly asking for treats.

[zinemama]

I don't see anything wrong with lecturing kids on occasion. Just this morning I lectured my 6yo on using a hanky instead of wiping snot all over his (newly laundered) sweatshirt sleeve. (Something he does all the time). Lecturing is not my main form of communication with him, so I don't see the occasional lecture as a horrible thing.

[faithnj]

I don't know what NVC and TCS are. However, what's wrong with just saying "NO" to the things you don't think are good for your child????

You've already educated her. But it seems to me that she's too young to control her wants and desires, regardless of what she knows about health and consumerism. If you just said no, rather than gave long-winded explainations, it might take a while, but eventually I'm sure you DD would stop asking you for certain things because she alreay knows what your answer is, and that your answer is firm and unwavering. (And by the way, there's no reason why you can't limit these things to weekend or Sunday, after dinner desserts.)

I know that my grandmother had raised four children before me. By the time I came along, she already knew how to foil the natural begging talents each child is born with. She did Xmas and birthday shopping without me. I didn't even know that toy stores existed, that I could ask for toys (gifts just appeared under the tree based on what each giver wanted to give,) or that all those toy ads on t.v. were directed towards me. I thought all that t.v. stuff was from a kind of fantasy land-- it had nothing to do with my personal reality. As for food? I ate whatever my grandmother served me. We had healthy food for every meal, and tasty desserts on the weekend, and that's that. (Kind of like you only have McDonalds when you travel. It just wasn't available, otherwise.) When I look back, I didn't feel deprived. (You can't feel deprived when you don't know certain things are options.)

I feel like my grandmother gave me a very balanced and healthy childhood, and saved herself from listening to a LOT of nagging. All that nagging and consumerism ISN'T good for children, anyway. Nagging and wanting isn't fun, in my opinion. Children should be thinking and dreaming and running, and playing and reading for fun. They should be wanting to do things that are mostly within the realm of their control. (I'd like to see if I can run faster...I'd like to see how fast I can read this book.) But I don't think it's within the ability of most children to control desires for unhealthy things on their own. Educating them is fine. But asking them to act upon what they know, in the face of sugar and toy advertisements, is streatching it. When parents take these options away, children don't have to worry or preoccupy themselves with whether or not they will get these things, and how. They know they just can't have them, and therefore they can get on with the real business of childhood-- learning, growing, amusing themselves, and enjoying their parent's company.

JMO -
do what you think is best. But if you have an answer for why "No" is unacceptable, I'd love to hear it. I'm open to all points of view.

Faith

[faithnj]

Hmmmm. I just checked out that NVC link. I imagine you don't already say no beause maybe you don't feel it's respectful????

If that's the case, then why do you feel you have to control what your DD eats? Sitting on the fence about these type of things is often an very uncomfortable position. You could respect her wishes and give her what she wants, thereby eliminating the conflict. That's a reasonable decision to make. (Although, as a vegetarian and as a person who feels it's my responsibility to look out for my DD's health, it's not one I would personally make.) Seriously....you could just let her have what she wants, and then wait for her body to tell her she needs healthier foods. People have done experiements of this type, where the kids could have all the cake and cookies that they wanted, and have come to the conclusion that within a few days most children will start to choose healthier food options. And even if she doesn't start to make healthier choices, it must be confusing to not be willing to say no with your mouth, yet still say no with your actions. If you ask me, that type of diconnect will lead to feelings of disrespect down the line, cause you aren't willing to verbally stand for what you actually believe in.

And as for the consumerism, you could simply give her her allowance, and let her spend it as she pleases, and then refuse to discuss what she wants or how she will get it. She'll get the message sooner or later-- you can buy whatever junk you want with what you've got...but don't ask for more 'cause you aren't getting more until you next allowance becomes available. And that's not a bad model for how she'll be living in the future, when she's on salary.

Or you could face the fact that you feel the need for some control over these issues because you honestly think your DD is too young or too irresponsible or too immature to make these choices for herself. Perhaps the truth is that you view protecting her health as truly being respectful of who she is as a 6 year old. And that at this age she's really a person who needs guidance and oversight, until she is old enough and wise enough to make informed decisions, based on your opinion of what old enough and wise enough is.

Still looking forward to hearing your point of view on this.
Either way, good luck on resolving this issue. It sure is an interesting one.

Faith

[Magella]

I just wanted to say that first off, there's nothing in NVC that says you can't say no. NVC is about communicating respectfully, including respectfully communicating about why you are unwilling to do something. It is also about honoring and respecting the feelings and needs of the people with whom we are communicating, so my understanding is that if I'm using NVC I'm not simply saying no without regard for or discussion of my child's feelings and I am open to other options (besides just flatly saying no) that would respect both my needs/values and my child's needs/values.

Secondly, I think the OP has been saying "no" to her daughter. It was my understanding that she is looking for a way to interact with her daughter about these things, as well as a resolution, that feels better both to her and to her daughter.

[faithnj]

[QUOTE=sledg]I just wanted to say that first off, there's nothing in NVC that says you can't say no. NVC is about communicating respectfully, including respectfully communicating about why you are unwilling to do something. It is also about honoring and respecting the feelings and needs of the people with whom we are communicating, so my understanding is that if I'm using NVC I'm not simply saying no without regard for or discussion of my child's feelings and I am open to other options (besides just flatly saying no) that would respect both my needs/values and my child's needs/values. QUOTE]

Ya know...I get this. I really do. But sometimes I think the short and sweet answer is less painful than long, drawn out explainations, dont you think?

I mean...it's different for different people and different situtaions...but the OP had already explained very well how she feels about the health reprecussions of eating certain foods, and so on and so on. And at times it just seems more humane to me to just get to the point. Yes you can have it. Or no you can't. Rather than long, tortured explainations that leave you wondering....will I? Won't I? Will I? Won't I? Is this negotiable today??? If I wait till tomorrow, will it be negotialbe then? Can I wear you down on this subject? I mean, if you know the answer is no...then you can get on with your life. I go through this with my husband all the time. He wants to rationalize every no he has to give me. I just want to hear yes or no. And I deal with this withmy 16 month old. It's torture not to let her drink milk all day, at her request. But she will shun every other food, and beg for milk all day long, if I don't draw the line. I couldn't believe how much easier it was on her when I finally started to tell her "No. You may have food, juice or water." Instead of crying and harranging, she would stop and think about what she could have, and then tell me what her choice was.

JMO,

Faith

[Magella]

I'm feeling nervous about hijacking the OP's thread, Faith, but I want to respond to your post. I understand what you're saying, and I also used to perceive NVC and otherwise respectful and more consensual forms of parenting to be unwieldy and unnecessarily drawn out. But now, having taken quite some time now to try to practice NVC with my children and having learned more about NVC, I understand that it's actually often much easier and less painful than the struggles my kids and I used to have or drawing those lines in the sand. And really, it doesn't lead to ill-behaved, out of control children. And it has been wonderful so far for us, because instead of a more adversarial relationship using NVC leads to deeper connection.

However, clarity is very important. I think clarity is much more important in communicating with children and in parenting than consistency or saying "no, and no discussion". I think one can achieve clarity in communication with children and maintain one's own personal boundaries while remaining respectful and open and maintaining quality of connection. It's not easy, but nothing about parenting is really easy.

I do not think my way of looking at things is the only right way. I don't have a handle on perfect parenting (not by any means). However, I don't like to see a parenting approach just dismissed out of hand as being ineffective based on the rough patch one person has hit. I think if I had to guess, I'd say the OP is muddling around a bit (just like I do many times) trying to find a way to communicate clearly with her daughter about an issues that can be tricky while at the same time respecting her autonomy. That doesn't mean she's totally on the wrong track, it just means it's time for her to take a step back and reevaluate. It happens to all parents. Even when we draw those lines in the sand.

My hope while writing this is that I have been coming across as at least polite and hopefully respectful, as I am not trying to be argumentative. I want to say that while I disagree with your views, your compassion for the OP and your sincere desire to help come through loud and clear in your posts. And I respect that.

One more thought I had for the OP, which was my original reason for revisiting the thread, is that I have a daughter (also 6) who is very sensitive and tends to be....not obsessive, really, but very persistent and inflexible. I have found that becoming more rigid didn't help us but the simple act of being more flexible doesn't necessarily make for more peace either-and I think that part of the reason sometimes nothing seems to work is that my daughter really needs for me to show her that I hear her in a way that allows her to understand that I really do hear her (does that make any sense?), and then she also just needs space to work through her emotions without any interference from me. So sometimes talking about things once, offering empathy to the best of my ability, and then giving her some space to work through it on her own is what's most helpful to both of us. She might go on and on, but that doesn't mean I have to respond verbally, yk? And that's hard for me to do.

[Twocoolboys]

Yikes - I find myself lecturing sometimes too. And I can see my son's eyes glaze over as I'm doing it! As soon as I realize what I am doing, I stop myself and start asking him questions (a few, not a lot). Like if we are talking about why he has to eat healthy foods, for example. I ask him what are his favorite healthy foods. And why he thinks it is important to eat healthy. Etc, etc. I am often surprised (though I shouldn't be) at how much he does know and understand. And, I think, for him to say something in his own words helps him to understand the importance of some things a little more.

[VelmaLou]

You all will have to excuse me as I'm 7 hours ahead of EST, so while you all battle it out ( ) I'm asleep!

Thank you for turning this into such an interesting discussion! Mostly, I'm on the same page as sledg, but faithnj has some interesting points (though, I know from experience that it can be very difficult to get into the shoes of a mama to a 6 yo when you have a 15 mo ). I do respect your posts, though, faithnj; I have noticed some of your stuff on other threads.

So. As far as the requests to buy things during the week, yes, I say no a lot. No, I do not go into detail about the whys and the how comes. When she mentions things during the week she gets either a "Yes, that would be cool, wouldn't it" or "You can buy that with your allowance on Wednesday." If she insists, she gets, "No." I have never given in. This has not stopped the incessant asking -- and I'll have to say it's phrased most often as "I wish I could have..." and not "Mommy, buy this for me!". NB: she does not whine and she is very respectful to me.

The whys and the how comes do get explained (lectured) to her after an entire day of I wishes. That is what I don't want to do, the thing I came her to find alternatives to.

She is absolutely free to purchase anything she wants with her money -- no issues there.

One thing that could be derailing the whole thing is that I will sometimes make a purchase for a school project (yesterday it was a notebook to practice her cursive) or home arts & crafts project (last week I bought colored tissue paper and glue). I need these to keep her busy as she is new to her school and, unless it's sunny, never has afterschool playtime with friends. So, yeah, sometimes I make purchases for her during the week. My dh thinks she will eventually understand the difference between these useful purchases and her pleasure purchases. I think, for now, they are contributing to her theory that we can buy stuff for her anytime. I do make a point, if I can, to purchase these things while she's in school.

As far as the food issue goes, it's not that often that she is asking for a "treat." Her main preoccupation is chocolate cereal and chocolate eggs -- or this new treat with cookie sticks and chocolate paste. On this one, I will admit to faithnj that I have not been firm enough. I say no to many, many items. She backs down quickly because she does understand what I'm saying when I talk about trans-fats and the heart, for example. But, I do break down and give her a special treat on certain days -- just because. And I treat it as a special treat, saying something like, "It's such a lovely day, let's go get a (fill in a blank) and eat it in the park." But then I do feel the need to say something about the fact that it's not a perfect choice, etc. That's the other thing I want to stop doing.

Mainly, the issue stems from the fact that I can't get healthful versions of these treats in this country. If I lived in the States I would just go to Trader Joes and get her the organic versions and feel comfortable with that. What I need to do is accept the fact that since I am the one breaking down, I am the one who needs to get over it; it's my issue not my daughter's.

I really appreciated what sledg wrote in regards to this.

And one of the most helpful things for me to learn is to not expect that my empathy or explaining or requests will change how my kids behave. Of course I hope that it will eventually help them learn, but I'm setting myself up for frustration if I become attached to a particular outcome in terms of my child's behavior in any instance and then expect that my actions/words will result in that outcome. KWIM?

Yes, I know what you mean. You are right. I really appreciate you writing this out for me! I will share it with my dh, too. I think the main issue is that I'm simply uncomfortable with her daydreaming about acquiring so many things. It's probably just the age. If I could get more comfortable with the idea that she is just daydreaming, then I wouldn't feel the need to lecture by the end of the day. I do sometimes play those fantasy games, "If you could buy anything what would you buy?" And I play, too. And everything goes better.

and then she also just needs space to work through her emotions without any interference from me. So sometimes talking about things once, offering empathy to the best of my ability, and then giving her some space to work through it on her own is what's most helpful to both of us. She might go on and on, but that doesn't mean I have to respond verbally, yk? And that's hard for me to do.

Okay, yeah, that's something I'll have to observe in our interactions: Am I giving her that space? Am I responding verbally?

Zinemama - I agree, but I think I'm going overboard these days.

My dh and I had a long talk last night. I keep wondering if it's the age or what, but I feel like I'm having to say something to her about something all the time. He feels that if we just sit back sometimes that she'll see for herself that, for example, standing on something that she just made fall to the floor is rather disrepectful of the object in question.

Twocoolboys - Good idea!

I hope I have covered everything I wanted; there was a lot to respond to.

[Ayala Eilon]

Yes to NVC. And NVC specific to parenting is the book, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. It transformed our family completely. It is not about food, but about communicating so the child wants to do what is best.
As for food, I would buy anything just on special ocasion if you don't want to buy it again.

[Piglet68]

With food, I told my DD that there are some foods that are okay to eat all the time, and some foods that are only okay to eat sometimes. So we call them "sometimes foods". DD will ask me "is this a sometimes food?". She's not quite 4, but she gets this. It doesn't mean she is always happy when I say no to a treat, but she knows why I say it, and that's all I need to know.

My issue with lecturing is an issue I have, within myself. Drives my DH batty, I'm sure, lol. I try really hard to avoid lecturing my kids because I think it is like saying "no" all the time - eventually they stop hearing you.

[PumpkinSeeds]

I don't really have a problem with my son about the food thing but sometimes he will ask for trinkets and I don't want to buy him something every time we go out of the house.

What often works for me is having him help me write a list of things we need to buy that day and then reinforcing the idea that we are only going to purchase the things on the list.

I also have made it our *tradition* that at the market on friday the boys can choose one treat. It gives them something to look forward to since I won't buy *treats* just for going out shopping (I won't buy a cookie or a candy for them to eat every time at the store).

Just an idea.