how deep is denial?

[jenP]

Wow, I had a conversation with a friend last week and just can't believe how GLAD he is that he was circ'd. He brought up a dog he once had whose tail and ears were cropped and how awful he thought that was to do that to a dog just for the sake of looks. So of course I jumped in with how awful it is for parents to circumcise a boy just because they think it looks better. At first he thought I was talking about castration!! (Just shows you how entrenched circ is in our culture, people don't even know what it is or have never even heard the word!) Then I told him what I meant and he was like, "Oh that! Oh, I'm SO GLAD I don't have one of THOSE THINGS to have to pull back every time I pee!" He also said how glad he is not to have to take care of cleaning it.
Hmm, now I have no first-hand experience but I would assume that if you even do need to pull back a foreskin to pee, that it would be a simple smooth motion incorporated into the motion of pulling the penis out of the pants (which every man, intact or not, has to do to pee), right? Same with the ease of cleaning in the shower, I mean you are washing your penis anyway how much harder is it to retract and rinse??? I have to lift up my saggy boobs to wash under them but I'm not thinking of having them removed! No amount of reason would convince him that the mutilated penis is not, in fact, an improvement over the natural state.
So how do we reach people like this? How to convince them that natural is preferable, without having them think that what we mean is that their equipment is sadly defective?
Now, the man in question is single and childless so there is plenty of time to bring him around, and he's a really nice guy so in the event he would probably choose not to hurt a baby, but he is really convinced that his parents did him a favor! How to deal with this mindset?

Jen

[LavenderMae]

Years ago I had a simliiar conversation with a guy. What finally got him to think about not circing was when I asked him if he thought it should be up to the boy though if he wanted his foreskin or not. After thinking about it he said that eventhough he was very happy (whatever) that he was circed that it should actually be up to the boy to decide.

[ChristaN]

Given that he is a young guy, I'd try to get him a to watch the Penn and Teller episode on circ.

[jenP]

Actually, he's not that young. In my generation, and I'm old (to have such young kids)! But we all find partners and have kids at different ages, if at all.
The Penn and Teller episode is an excellent idea. I will give him a copy next time the subject comes up. Thanks!

Jen

[Christine&men]

I have to lift up my saggy boobs to wash under them but I'm not thinking of having them removed!

I love that sentence, especially since mine are now practically sitting on my belly when I slouch (and they are anyway somewhat larger than normal).

But hey, he does not know any better, I suppose...

[Revamp]

I have a similar situation actually, a friend of mine says that he is glad that he was "Done", although he admitted to having never seen an intact penis. Apparently all the porn actors he has seen were cut. *sigh* Which is pretty predictable actually...

[Treece]

Revamp, that happened to me too. They don't get that God/nature made foreskin for lots of reasons and America's circ addiction is rather new.

[dnr3301]

I had a conversation a while ago like that too. I was searching for someone, anyone, I knew who had cable to tap ethe Penn and Teller show for me, and one guy said, "well, you might be against it, but once you've had it done, you wouldn't want it back" or something like that. I didn't know enough about restoring at the time to have any kind of commeback other than a shocked look on my face, and a mumbled, "you don't really know what you're talking about, do you?"

[phatchristy]

Hmm....which would be easier emotionally to believe:

a. What was done to you as a baby without your permission was helpful, necessary and enhanced your sexual life.

b. What was done to you as a baby was painful, unnecessary and even harmful surgery which has lasting negative repercussisons on your sexual life.

I think there was a term I used once "ignorance is bliss for the circumcised man." If you don't really know about circ you are likely just to assume that it is non-damaging as otherwise "why would people do it?" Once you find out, and you learn what was removed, how it was removed and what impact it had on your sex life it is a completely different story. To learn all of this information, who wouldn't want to be in a state of denial. This isn't just any part of a body, this is a man's penis...perhaps the most "sacred" part of the body for a man's ego. Who is going to want to think that they are missing anything.

Theres an article I have bookmarked somewhere, and I have seen others post it here, it's called "the vulnerability of men." It does a good job explaining the ideas.

I mean, who would want to "think" there is something wrong with their parts. Circumcised females often report that their circumcisions are healthier, cleaner, are preferred more by men and that their sexual pleasure is in fact enhanced. How the heck would they know any better as they have not experienced having WHOLE genetalia. I read a link the other day to studies of the sexual response of of circumcised women....and how they find their breasts to be the most sensitive part of their bodies. Here I am as intact woman thinking...my God if THAT is what they think, YIKES...I think of the other parts of my body which are probably 30 times more sensitive than that. So sad. Yet they still find pleasure from it.

So, I don't think that cut men can even conceptualize sometimes that there is more than what they have, as they have never experienced it.

[Revamp]

Originally Posted by Treece

Revamp, that happened to me too. They don't get that God/nature made foreskin for lots of reasons and America's circ addiction is rather new.

His parents did it presumably for religious reasons as they are Indian. He lives in Britain as do I.

He did sprout the normal nonsensical "Healthier and more hygenic" line like an All-American would though. I told him that ignorance was bliss and tried not to push the topic...

[orangebird]

I am at work reading this and just had a run-in with a grandpa over this. Mom brings her dad in to see the babies for the first time. Grandpa: "so when will they circumcise him?" Mom: "we will have to do it after he goes home in the pediatrician's office" Me jumping in "we don't do them here. Ever" Grandpa again "you know, for hygenic reasons, it's better" Me: "no actually it is better not to do it, no medical orginization in the world actually recommends doing it" Him: "well, I've read the pro's and the con's" Me feeling my temperatre rise thinking "pro's?" shut up and back off before I end up in a nasty confrontation. I have been stewing the last few hours pissed at how so deep this BS is in everyone's heads that you need to circ. I am just sick. I hope mom heard what I said about it not being better. I really want to talk to her about it but she hasn't been back over to se the babies again. Ugh. Sick sick sick.

[Treece]

Ignorance is bliss. I would be devasted if I had FGM and then found out that there was more reasons not to. It would be hard to understand why a parent would do that. It is hard to understand. I don't get it. But I do know that it is a huge part of American society.

[Minky]

Why do we need to shatter a man's self esteem about his penis at all? If you can get a person like this to recognize that some men are indeed unhappy with their circ's, that the rate is 50/50 and that circ can't be undone after it's done but you CAN get circ'd later in life, I thnk you've won the battle.

[Treece]

I used that argument and the response was "Gross. Who would do it then?" I don't think there egos shoud be shattered. I don't think they should have been cut in the first place. But I know they (RIC circed men) had no say in it and tell them that. I even tried reassuring this guy he was great which he was, so I didn't lie. I just don't know how to approach this, it's confusing.

[Minky]

"Gross, who would do it then?" meaning who would get circ'd as an adult or meaning who would leave a baby intact?

[sadean]

His parents did it presumably for religious reasons as they are Indian. He lives in Britain as do I.

Unless he is an Indian Muslim or Jew (and yes, there are Indian Jews who live predominately in Kerela), they would not have circ'ed him for religious reasons. Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and non-American Christians do not routinely circ. for religious reasons. I am not even sure that Indian Muslims do routine religious circ., though I am guessing they might. His parents would have likely done it for some other reason (hygiene, or some such nonsense), but it is not a routine surgery in India for any reason.

[Treece]

Originally Posted by Minky

"Gross, who would do it then?" meaning who would get circ'd as an adult or meaning who would leave a baby intact?

Get a circ as an adult. I guess I didn't clarify. Oops. Also, he's kinda anti-intact. But that's another topic on another board. (I can PM you a link, unless you found it already)

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by jenP

Wow, I had a conversation with a friend last week and just can't believe how GLAD he is that he was circ'd.

Well, yes! When you get down to brass tacks, the reason for being is to survive and perpetuate the species and since men can not give birth, they value their sexual prowess. Central to that is a sexual organ that is perceived as the best it can be. Any suggestion that his isn't the absolute epitome is going to bring denial. For it not to be simply negates his entire purpose on earth.

Then I told him what I meant and he was like, "Oh that! Oh, I'm SO GLAD I don't have one of THOSE THINGS to have to pull back every time I pee!" He also said how glad he is not to have to take care of cleaning it.

Yes, since he doesn't have a foreskin, to maintain his image as sexually superior, he has to defile the foreskin as dirty and troublesome.

Hmm, now I have no first-hand experience but I would assume that if you even do need to pull back a foreskin to pee, that it would be a simple smooth motion incorporated into the motion of pulling the penis out of the pants (which every man, intact or not, has to do to pee), right?

If sitting, there is no need to do anything but if standing, it helps to control the stream to pull back enough to expose the meatus. It is a simple motion. You just grasp the foreskin at the base of the glans and squeeze slightly and it pops out. Very simple and very quick and a matter of being preprogrammed in before birth.

Same with the ease of cleaning in the shower, I mean you are washing your penis anyway how much harder is it to retract and rinse???

This is more of the denial. It is no problem. I once calculated how much time this simple manuver would take over a lifetime and it came out to 19 minutes in 78 years. It may even be less than that. His assertions are made from his imagination and not reality.

No amount of reason would convince him that the mutilated penis is not, in fact, an improvement over the natural state.

For the protection of his ego, he can not let you convince him.

So how do we reach people like this? How to convince them that natural is preferable, without having them think that what we mean is that their equipment is sadly defective?

I believe you've got to hit them where it hurts but I think you've first got to get them into the victim mentality. This transfers the culpability to someone else like the doctor that did it to them. Then you hit them with information that will address their motivations like the fact that circumcision will end their sex life years early, on average in their early 50's and that women who have experienced both overwhelmingly prefer the intact penis. That women are more likely to have an orgasm with an intact man. That artificial lubricants are usually needed for circumcised sex and not needed for intact sex. Stating that circumcision will be traumatically painful for their son will not make the same impact on a man that it will on a woman because of the different ways we are wired.



Frank

[baybee]

Thanks for being so articulate, Frank. You're a gem.

Baybee

[baybee]

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Baybee