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I don't use carseats - Page 10

post #181 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.
Thank God the cops I know pull over, ticket people like you and call children's services
post #182 of 328
d/p
post #183 of 328
I think some good planning might be to ask on Freecycle for a bicycle and a bike trailer to pull behind it, perhaps even a bike seat for a third child or to leave more room for groceries. You can add a bike rack with saddle bags and a basket in front to hold the groceries. And a backpack to carry a little bit more. Perhaps grocery delivery for a small fee would be preferable to going out at all.

There have got to be other alternatives much of the time.
post #184 of 328
WOW!! That was really something else to read. I'm all over the board on this one. I think that the OP was trying to express her point of view and then hear responses to that. But, as always, there are people who don't get that at first read and then there are people who are always eager to plead their case about the neccessity of carseat use no matter what. I'm sure the OP is not suprised at some of the responses she got, if she's done any reading around here, she was probably a little prepared. I always say "what if". I know of someone who drove home with their sleeping baby in their arms b/c they didn't want to wake her. It was a 10 min drive and I could never understand that the benefit of holding outweighed the risk? I always say "what if I don't buckle my toddler and it's the one time we get in an accident and I'll never forgive myself". I should be saying "what if I do buckle my toddler and we get in an accident and I never forgive myself b/c the installation was shotty?". I think there were alot of good responses that will provoke thought and that's always good. The OP offered a "point of view" and other's, in turn, offered a different "point of view". That's the whole idea here isn't it. I do think that the "tone" of alot of the responders was judgmental. But that may be because I am very sensitive and take suggestion well. I absolutely don't need someone to get a dig in to make a point. As an online community, it is difficult to know those things about individuals and therefore we get threads like this one sometimes. Good luck to the OP.
post #185 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joannarachel
Thank God the cops I know pull over, ticket people like you and call children's services
CPS? You wish that upon the PP? Yowsa. The smiley face sure does make your mean-spirited comment that much better. Nice touch.
post #186 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverSky
ask on Freecycle for a bicycle and a bike trailer to pull behind it, perhaps even a bike seat for a third child or to leave more room for groceries. You can add a bike rack with saddle bags and a basket in front to hold the groceries. And a backpack to carry a little bit more.

There have got to be other alternatives much of the time.
Do they have Freecycle in the VI?
Are roads good enough and safe enough for a bike with a trailer? Here in SE Asia, for example, it would be impossible due to road conditions, pollution and the way people drive. Just trying to picture it, I shudder. It would certainly be much more dangerous than riding in a taxi without a carseat.
post #187 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschildren
OfI guess what perplexes me about those who choose not to use a seat or while driving take their kids out of their seat, is why they are willing to put their kids life in someone else's hands? A total stranger driving alongside them. The dude making a left at the light. The lady coming out of the grocery store parking lot. The teenager hauling ass to school so he's not late. There are no "accidents". There is always at least one cause. And the majority of MVC are as a result of driver error. Not you necessarily, but someone else. So that is where I am a bit surprised. You may be the best driver in the world, but it won't matter. Not unless you are the only one on the road.
Maybe it's because I'm fully aware that I'm putting my kid's lives in someone else's hands every time I leave the house. The closest ds1 ever came to getting killed was when he and I were crossing a street, on the walk light, after checking traffic both ways (all four ways, actually...we also checked the parallel street for people turning), etc. Some guy in a pick-up came whipping up the street parallel to us at about twice the speed limit and whipped into the crosswalk without signalling...he almost ran us both down. So...ds1 spent quite a few miserable hours strapped into a child torture (sorry - I meant safety) device for no reason (as we never had even a minor accident), and was almost killed crossing the street less than a block from his home. I'm well aware that someone could hit me anytime I take the car out. That's one of the reasons I don't drive very much...but I only feel somewhat safer walking. (There were two pedestrians killed about a month apart on a stretch of road only a mile from the last home I lived in.)

The issue I have with this whole topic is that it's like the only thing that counts is the possibility of a car accident...ignoring your child's cries doesn't matter (on the cosleep forum, there's all kinds of information about how bad it is for a child's brain to CIO - does anybody really think a baby knows the difference between a carseat and a crib??)...ending up trekking home from the store in the pissing rain (unexpected rain is not uncommon around here) with a toddler doesn't matter...making a small child walk home when something took longer than expected, even when the child is exhausted doesn't matter...all that matters is the possibility that you might be in an accident.

Car seat advocates say that not using a carseat is irresponsible parenting. I could just as easily say that any parent who ever takes their child out of the house for anything that isn't urgent is irresponsible. The only way to make sure your child is safe from being in a car accident is to keep them out of a car...and they can't get run down in a crosswalk if they never leave the house. Why is it okay to put your child in a deathtrap so they can go to the park (because you think the park is good for them), but it's not okay to increase the risk (take them out of a car seat) so that they can eat when they're hungry (because you don't think they should CIO)? Why is it up to you, or the police, or anybody but me, to decide which risks are acceptable, and which ones aren't?

As I've said before on the topic, nobody needs to worry about my kids. I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand. I've given them vaccinations, too...except I skipped a couple. Is that an acceptable risk? I wonder how I'd live with myself if ds2 caught something that I didn't vax for, and died of complications...there are a lot of people who'd call me irresponsible for that, too. All I can do is get what information I can, and make the best decision I can make...and hope no well-meaning individuals foist child services on me when they think I'm irresponsible.
post #188 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by numom499
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.
Sigh.

I didn't even see the old lady driving the wrong direction in my lane until the giant SUV in front of me pulled to the shoulder, and there were two headlights coming right for me. BAM! Head on collision and there was NOTHING I could have done about it. (I did manage to serve so most of the force was directed towards the side of the car, so it could have been worse)

THANK GOD, my two yr old nephew was properly restrained in the back seat and received only minor injuries. I had nightmares for weeks that we were hit and he went flying into the windshield.

Maybe your babies flying into the windshield is an acceptable risk for you, but it isn't for me. No way. You NEVER know when that crazy lady will be driving in your lane. It was mere seconds from me seeing her until she hit me.

I realize that being in the city and taking public transportation is totally different than passenger car travel. I just feel very strongly about properly restraining children in private passenger cars, chances are an accident won't happen, but I am not willing to take that chance.
post #189 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
Car seat advocates say that not using a carseat is irresponsible parenting. I could just as easily say that any parent who ever takes their child out of the house for anything that isn't urgent is irresponsible. The only way to make sure your child is safe from being in a car accident is to keep them out of a car...and they can't get run down in a crosswalk if they never leave the house. Why is it okay to put your child in a deathtrap so they can go to the park (because you think the park is good for them), but it's not okay to increase the risk (take them out of a car seat) so that they can eat when they're hungry (because you don't think they should CIO)? Why is it up to you, or the police, or anybody but me, to decide which risks are acceptable, and which ones aren't?

As I've said before on the topic, nobody needs to worry about my kids. I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand. I've given them vaccinations, too...except I skipped a couple. Is that an acceptable risk? I wonder how I'd live with myself if ds2 caught something that I didn't vax for, and died of complications...there are a lot of people who'd call me irresponsible for that, too. All I can do is get what information I can, and make the best decision I can make...and hope no well-meaning individuals foist child services on me when they think I'm irresponsible.
Amen!!

(...or if your child died as a result of the vaccines)
post #190 of 328
We dont have a car and we live in the USA.

We take public trasportation (the bus) and there are no seatbelts there to even strap a car seat into.

Sometimes we take taxi's. And we dont use car seats there either, because with a toddler in a grocery store, lugging around a HUGE carseat in the 2nd shopping cart while doing shopping is a little unfeasable. (We tried it it's too much of a headache) Our taxi service does not provide free car seats during a trip. They don't offer any at all. Hence why lugging the one we have around the store is a headache.

We DO use the carseat when we are with neighbors driving us and such.

But OP, I do completely understand where you are coming from, and I think others have to live it before they can even try to understand it.
post #191 of 328
OT warning: I'm posing this instead of PMing dallaschildren because I thought it might be helpful info for people reading this thread who might be interested in the seat dove posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dallaschildren

Quote:
Originally Posted by dove
I just recently saw a carseat that folds up and into a briefcase that is just a little bigger than a computer bag. check it out:
http://www.safeguardseat.com/go/index.htm
looks like it works for 30 pounds to 100 pounds. Hope this helps someone. It is made by a very reputable company. (Dallaschildren, what do you know about this??? I might look into getting one, as I take trips often, and yes, it is a huge pain to schlep a carseat, but you just do it, ya know?)
Dove,

I have not installed or even seen one of these yet. This seat last I read about it, was a prototype. So it appears it has come to fruition. I can see two things "wrong" with it right off the bat (just based on reading the info on the link you posted). First and foremost, with a price point around $ 430.00....who the heck can afford that? A very small percentage of our population. So that right off isn't good. Secondly it says a backless booster up to 100 pounds.....for some parents with vehicles with low or no seat backs and no headrests, I see a potential problem with that. Overall, based on just the reading I did from that link, it sounds interesting (yeah to no plastic shells....alumminum sounds awesome) but I am disappointed yet again that the manufacturers are making a car seat that realistically few can afford.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats
Hey dallaschildren, you might have (probably have) already read the SafeGuard page in more detail by now and already know everything I'm about to say, but just incase you haven't had time or something here goes:
The Safeguard Child Seat is the one that is $430. It is a forward facing only harnessed car seat that is for 22-65 lbs. The seat that dove posted is the SafeGuard Go Booster. It is a combination seat that harnesses from 30-60 lbs and works as backless booster from 40-80 lbs. The Go booster is only $180 and it is the seat that folds up into a handy tavel bag. You are right though that this seat has several posible drawbacks. First, as you already mentioned, a backless booster isn't appopriate for all vehicles/children. Also, while in harness mode, this seat MUST be teathered, and (partialy because of the teather issue) is not FAA approved. Finaly, something that just bothers me about the seat is how they advertize people can/should still use LATCH anchors while the seat is in BOOSTER mode which (as you know) can't be done with ANY other booster seat (that I'm aware of anyway). Now, I don't doubt that they SafeGuard makes have tested this for safety, I don't like how this promotes something that is unsafe with all other booster seats, and is already something that quite a few parents mistakely think is ok to do. I guess the SafeGuard people have every right to do this, but it still bothers me.
Like I said, you probably already figured out all of this, but I wanted to mention it in case you don't yet, and so other people might have a little more info on the SafeGuard seats. If you have any info for me, or want to discus this feel free to PM me if it isn't relevent to this thread.

I apppologize again, to anyone not at all interested in what I posted, for the thread hijacking. It won't happen again

~Kelsie
post #192 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride
The issue I have with this whole topic is that it's like the only thing that counts is the possibility of a car accident...ignoring your child's cries doesn't matter (on the cosleep forum, there's all kinds of information about how bad it is for a child's brain to CIO - does anybody really think a baby knows the difference between a carseat and a crib??)...ending up trekking home from the store in the pissing rain (unexpected rain is not uncommon around here) with a toddler doesn't matter...making a small child walk home when something took longer than expected, even when the child is exhausted doesn't matter...all that matters is the possibility that you might be in an accident.
I haven't seen anyone either say or imply any of the above. And I also haven't seen anyone say that they'd just continue to drive, leaving their babies to cry without being attended to in some way until they could get to a safe place to stop. Really, this is just hyperbole.

As is this:

Quote:
I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand.
As far as I can tell, my son has never been tortured by a carseat. It actually seems to be pretty comfortable for him.

IMO, it's all about mitigating risk where you can. We have to cross the street sometimes because spending our entire lives on one block isn't a possibility. We have to leave the house sometimes or we'd starve and probably go insane. Do I have to put my child in a car unsecured? Nope. Do I have to take him out of his seat while the car is still moving? Nope. In my experience, there has always been another reasonable option available.
post #193 of 328
Well, I still do not find the issue to be black or white. I do think that using a carseat reduces risk. Greatly. So does never leaving the house or putting your child in a bubble. Soemtimes you just have to weigh the options and pick what level of risk you are comfortable with based on what experiences you want for your child. There are a lot of things "I couldn't live with". We do not vaccinate. If dd dies of a vaccine prventable disease, I will not be able to live with myself. We homebirthed. If she died or was damaged due to not being at the hospital, I could not live with myself. We are unschooling. If dd grows up to be non-functional and blames it on the lack of schooling, I will not be able to live with myself. I got REALLY drunk once while pg but before I knew I was pg, if dd was born with alcohol related complications, I would not be able to live with myself. So if we want to travel to a place where we use public transportation, even *gasp* taxis, I am not going to stay in my hotel room fretting about what might happen. I believe in grasping life and that means taking a few risks. When it is feasible and practical, we use carseats. In fact dd has never been in a moving vehicle sans carseat. We even rigged up a carseat in a parade vehicle so she could ride when she was tiny. But I am not going to sit back and wag my finger at people when I have no idea what their life is like or what factors into their decisions.

I find it sort of funny that we are all sitting around tsk tsking people who have some unique problems that require going carseatless occasionally but we applaud those who drive Geo Metros and other older small cars that get great gas mileage. I do not have any statistics but I am willing to bet than travelling carseatless in a HUGE taxi going at 25 mph in the city is safer than driving with a carseat in cars that crush into a ball of aluminum if crashing while going 55 moh on the highway. We scroff at people that drive gas guzzlers, but statistically they are "safer" in crashes than smaller, fuel efficiant cars. So now do we demonize those that care about the environment or those that cannot afford the newest and safest vehicles? Or maybe we start going after people that drive more. Statistically, they are putting thier kids at much great danger than those of us that only go a few miles a day. Can you live with yourself? What about people that live in wood houses versus brick? Or everyone that puts their kids at great risk by living in known earthquake areas? Volcanoes anyone? Where do we draw the line?

AND for everyone saying that it is safer to lean over your kid and dangle a breast to avoid taking the child out of the carseat, this is very dangerous too. And not just for you but the baby as well. However, I have done it. I have done it because we were on a 16 hour trip and dd wanted to nurse constantly. We were not going to get where we needed to go had I not. She would not take a bottle. So I weighed the risks and what needed to happen and made a decision. I could have let her scream for hours at a time. She would ahve been "safer". But I decided her emotional health was more important than the increased risk of me leaning over her. Had I squished her, I would not be able to live with myself but that is part of life.
post #194 of 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly

IMO, it's all about mitigating risk where you can. We have to cross the street sometimes because spending our entire lives on one block isn't a possibility. We have to leave the house sometimes or we'd starve and probably go insane. Do I have to put my child in a car unsecured? Nope. Do I have to take him out of his seat while the car is still moving? Nope. In my experience, there has always been another reasonable option available.
To you. You draw the line of "reasonable" risk at a different spot than someone else might. You could order groceries over the internet to avoid crossing the street. You could hire a sitter every time you needed to go across the street. You could grow all of your own food on your property. You could hire a helecopter to take you over the street. That all seems pretty unreasonable doesn't it. To some people, lugging two toddlers, two carseats, groceries, diaper bag, umbrella, and a purse to get some food is unreasonable. And frankly I do not blame them.
post #195 of 328
Thank you Yooper. Such wisdom.
post #196 of 328
***
post #197 of 328
I do believe in my choices. That deos not mean I would not play "what if" if something awful were to happen. I am thinking that is pretty normal. Most people would wish they could throw their convictions to the wind if it would have prevented a tragedy, even if the tragedy was a fluke. Not sure what you are getting at. Just because I believe that not vaccinating is safer for us does not mean that I believe dd can never get a vaccine-"preventable" disease. I would "not be able to live with myself" either way. Damned if you do........
post #198 of 328
My BIL was in a left turning lane and the only vehicle from the opposite directin was in a left turning lane with the directional sign saying that it was the intention to turn left. Now, two vehicles turning left would normally not touch each other, would they? But that idiot decided to go straight (from the left turning lane) and hit BIL's car at the right end. My niece was in her car seat, she was fine. Conclusion: no matter how careful we drive, one never knows what idiots are out there!

My French in-laws don't put their kids in car seats every time they drive. Hell, they put so many passengers in one tiny car, I am sure it is forbidden (as in 7-8 people in one small car, majority of people were kids). My French in-laws don't always buckle up if they are in the backseat... HOWEVER, I have two friends here in the US who don't buckle up unless I cheerfully chirp: Buckle up, it's the law. Click it or ticket. Conclusion: you never know who does what, generalization is impossible.

Having said that: For ME, I have made the observation that in so many car-accidents it's the innocent by-stander/other car-driver who gets killed and the accident causing driver gets away with minor scrapes. For ME (and I only speak for me) riding without a car-seat is something I can't even think of (unless it's a dire emergency, so, I do make exceptions, however, Britney Spears is not excused, riding with her baby between herself and the steering wheel and then again, having the car seat improperly insttalled).
post #199 of 328
I teach and help those who want help. People in ALL situations. I take your situation as personally as if it were my own. I will treat your child as if they were my own. I answer questions and give my perspective based on personal and professional experience. I don't waste my time on those who think they know it all, those who try to twist crash statistics to suit and justify their own agendas or misguided beliefs, and those who believe car seat use in general, is a waste of time. I don't force anyone to do anything. Yeah, we've all heard it before. Your choice. Your child. Your body. Whatever. If you think not using a seat isn't a risk you're too worried about...go for it. I mean really. You don't need my permission, but don't expect to get my approval.
Personally I have been in 3 wrecks. Found not at fault in all 3. Still injured, still had to deal with all of the issues surrounding them; so it didn't matter much who was at fault in the end. Professionally I have seen what non-use or poor restraint use has done to our kids. It is graphic. It is bloody. It is the most horrible thing one can witness. I still mourn the babies who won't get the chance to be all they were suppose to be and all they had the right to be. And for those who want help, I will always be there. And I will continue to fight for all kids and for those parents or caregivers that need and want help. A car seat, advice, installation, help, a shoulder, an ear. Always. And I will never apologize for it or feel judgmental in doing so. Never.

DC
post #200 of 328
Quote:
To some people, lugging two toddlers, two carseats, groceries, diaper bag, umbrella, and a purse to get some food is unreasonable.
Yes, that would be quite difficult. However, there are lots of other options. There are those travel harness/ vests, I have seen booster seats which fold. There is this convertible carseat which "folds to only 6 1/2 inches"
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/radian_car_seats.htm. (sorry, don't know if anyone posted that before) You can even get a carrying case for it. If I didn't have a car, and had to frequently ride in taxis or get rides from friends or even if we ever travel, I will invest in something like that and use it. There are also many other options There are wagons and strollers and grocery carts and backpacks and other things that help us carry stuff. There are devices you can use to put a carseat on your back. All it takes is a little creative thinking, a little searching around, etc.

I live on an island..it is in the US..just a little touristy, island accessable by ferry off New England. During the winter, there are about 900 residents and it is quiet. I see many parents with children improperly restrained in the car. Young kids (under 10) riding in the front seat, toddlers not in carseats, babies improperly restrained in infant seats (I have see one baby with just the harness clip fastened, the parts which clip into the buckle between the legs was undone). I see people give other young toddlers and childrne rides without bothering to change carseats. People think because it is an island and there isn't much traffic, it is safe. Lots of people use that excuse. Traffic has nothing to do with it. A deer could run infront of you, the car could malfunction, the driver could have a heart attack or a seizure. People always use the excuse that it is okay to not use carseats if there isn't much traffic..but not all accidents are caused by cars hitting other cars. Sometimes, it is caused by an animal or car malfunction or driver illness, etc., etc.
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