I'm reading too much, help with my internal conflict

[Eman'smom]

Right now I'm reading both Unconditonal Parenting and Mom Jason is breathing on Me, note I'm not through either one, maybe if I kept reading I'd answer my own question I'm enjoying reading both by the way.

Note I'm going to paraphrase so excuse me if I don't get it quite right.

UP says that we are withholding/removing our love or making it "conditional love" when we remove ourselves from the situtation, basically I don't want to be around you when you act like/do ........ That this is wrong and sends the wrong message. Ok I can get behind that to a degree.


"Jason" says that when dealing with sibs to make it the kids issue, and that if you've done xyz, it's ok to remove yourself from the child/situation, that it sends the right message, that I'll hug/listen/symaphize, but only to an extent after that I'm out.

So now I'm torn am I helping them or hurting them? What kind of message am I sending?

As an example: I don't like to be hit, and I don't hit my children, when they hit me what's wrong with saying "I don't want to be around people that hit me" and removing myself from that situation? Am I supposed to hang around and be hit, because I don't want to teach my kids that I'm only willing to give them conditional love?

Jason seems to be using the disengage, don't get involved as it's basis.


:

[maya44]

First, I don't think that seperating siblings from each other is "withdrawing love."

Siblings relationships to me is a whole world onto itself and telling sibs to go away together has a much different feeling than telling a single child to go away.

That being said Anthony Wolf the author of "Jason" defintiely believes in disengaging. And he defintiely believes that if you are getting annoyed by your kids behavior, you should exit or have them exit.

I did a modified version of this, which he sometimes discusses. After offering sympathy, hugs etc.. to a tantrum thrower I exited the room, but told my kids "where they could find me if they needed me"

I often would say something like "I will be in the laundry room folding towels" or "I will be in the kitchen organizing the coupon drawer". I tried to find a somewhat mindless activity that could easily be interuppted but would let me go to a zen place.

[aira]

Well, I'm of the opinion that kids most need guidance, direction, and someone to help them give voice to their problems at the very times we probably feel like walking out.

So I do believe that it's harmful to "disengage" at those times. It sends the signal that the kids' problems (and therefore they) are bothersome to you and not worth your effort. By definition, it gives them the idea that they are only acceptable to you when they act the way you like, if you make it clear that you leave them when they do things you don't like, right?

Children (people) are not their behaviors. And no one thinks of him-/herself as a sum of behaviors. The idea that "disengageing" when DC behaves unacceptably to you would tell them that the behavior is bad - and not them - is silly to me.

If you were angry at DH and it was really coming out vehemently, and he quietly left the room saying, "you can find me in the laundry room when you can talk to me nicely" (or whatever), would you come away from that thinking that you should improve your behavior? Or would you feel abandoned, and like laundry was more important that your strong feelings?

I would feel the latter.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by aira

Well, I'm of the opinion that kids most need guidance, direction, and someone to help them give voice to their problems at the very times we probably feel like walking out.

So I do believe that it's harmful to "disengage" at those times. It sends the signal that the kids' problems (and therefore they) are bothersome to you and not worth your effort. By definition, it gives them the idea that they are only acceptable to you when they act the way you like, if you make it clear that you leave them when they do things you don't like, right?

Children (people) are not their behaviors. And no one thinks of him-/herself as a sum of behaviors. The idea that "disengageing" when DC behaves unacceptably to you would tell them that the behavior is bad - and not them - is silly to me.

If you were angry at DH and it was really coming out vehemently, and he quietly left the room saying, "you can find me in the laundry room when you can talk to me nicely" (or whatever), would you come away from that thinking that you should improve your behavior? Or would you feel abandoned, and like laundry was more important that your strong feelings?

I would feel the latter.

Okay, I hate these analogies to our Dh's but I will play. In the first instance if you DH was having an argument with his sister or his friend would you feel the need to be involved? I certainly would not!

Moreover, as a parent of three children ages 9-12, I can tell you that they do NOT need us in the area (and only in the area) of managing sibling relationships the same way they need us in other areas. They need us to protect them if they are being harmed, but otherwise this is THEIR relationship and it is best worked out alone.

It is my long experience that in that area, the natural rivalrly that siblings feel for their parents makes trying to guide or direct "DISASTEROUS". At least it was for my family. And many here who have several children will tell you the same thing. Sibling relationships are the one area where letting them manage on their own (with some excpetions) really works out better. Kids don't feel abandoned because they are with their sibs.

In your example, though why did you change the words. It is NOT "you can find me in the laundry when you can talk nicely" Its "If you want me I will be in the laundry room"

Are you honestly telling me that if you dh after attempting to talk to you, hug you, discuss things with you etc...saw that you were just screaming hysterically and trying to hit him and he said "If you want me I will be in the laundry room" you would feel "abandoned"? I wouldn't. And I wouldn't think he thought the laundry was "more important" than me.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

As an example: I don't like to be hit, and I don't hit my children, when they hit me what's wrong with saying "I don't want to be around people that hit me" and removing myself from that situation? Am I supposed to hang around and be hit, because I don't want to teach my kids that I'm only willing to give them conditional love?

If you leave a child who is hitting, you are missing out on an opportunity to teach your dc, and to help him to NOT hit. There are many ways that you could probably think of that would help your dc express their impulses/feelings without hitting. Children just don't have that type of logic or thinking skills to easily come up with acceptable alternatives on their own, or to even know that they ought to come up with alternatives.
And no, I don't think anyone should stay and be hit. You can back out of hitting range without leaving the room. Or you can gently hold dc's arm to stop him from hitting you. Then give acceptable alternatives that honor his reason for hitting.

I don't know about siblings. So I have no idea there.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by aira

If you were angry at DH and it was really coming out vehemently, and he quietly left the room saying, "you can find me in the laundry room when you can talk to me nicely" (or whatever), would you come away from that thinking that you should improve your behavior? Or would you feel abandoned, and like laundry was more important that your strong feelings?

ok, I hate to disagree with this, because I do agree with the rest of your post, and I agree with the idea that you are trying to convey.
I don't think that kids ought to be walked away from when they are "being bad." But its precisely *because* they are kids. They need our guidance, and our help to get them through rough feelings.

But, if I was shouting at dp, and he said "Ya know, I don't want to be yelled at. I'll be in the office if you need me" I would take that as HE really needs a break. And hopefully, I'd be able to settle myself enough to carry on a rational discussion with him. But I'm an adult- I would know that dp walking away from my yelling was because he didn't want to be yelled at, and not because he didn't care about what I was saying. kwim? I don't think young kids are that aware of others' feelings and thoughts to know that.

[aira]

Well, the point I was trying to get at is that when we are hurting we need help. I see that my example was imperfect. But the essence was that children (people) don't hear that they are good but their behavior is bad when they are hurting and their only hope is walking away.

And I didn't mean stuff like throwing things angrily at DH - just crying and speaking strongly and such...

Yes, I agree there are many differences in the two types of relationships. But the point isn't destroyed in the translation...

Sorry to be so brief, I'm in a hurry!

[Eman'smom]

Originally Posted by Deva33mommy

If you leave a child who is hitting, you are missing out on an opportunity to teach your dc, and to help him to NOT hit. There are many ways that you could probably think of that would help your dc express their impulses/feelings without hitting. Children just don't have that type of logic or thinking skills to easily come up with acceptable alternatives on their own, or to even know that they ought to come up with alternatives.
And no, I don't think anyone should stay and be hit. You can back out of hitting range without leaving the room. Or you can gently hold dc's arm to stop him from hitting you. Then give acceptable alternatives that honor his reason for hitting.

I don't know about siblings. So I have no idea there.

Sorry I didn't mean that you hit I leave, but after you've done you teaching, explaining used all your options gone over what can be hit ect. ect. and the hitting continues.

[Piglet68]

I will say to my DD "I do not like to be hit. I'm going to move my body further away." To me this is different than "I don't want to be around someone who hits" because this is really attacking the person. And, the way I've phrased it, it also follows the same wordage I use when DD is complaining that DS is hitting her. I tell her to move her body further away so she's out of reach.

[faithnj]

Originally Posted by Eman'smom

Right now I'm reading both Unconditonal Parenting and Mom Jason is breathing on Me, note I'm not through either one, maybe if I kept reading I'd answer my own question I'm enjoying reading both by the way.

Note I'm going to paraphrase so excuse me if I don't get it quite right.

UP says that we are withholding/removing our love or making it "conditional love" when we remove ourselves from the situtation, basically I don't want to be around you when you act like/do ........ That this is wrong and sends the wrong message. Ok I can get behind that to a degree.


"Jason" says that when dealing with sibs to make it the kids issue, and that if you've done xyz, it's ok to remove yourself from the child/situation, that it sends the right message, that I'll hug/listen/symaphize, but only to an extent after that I'm out.

So now I'm torn am I helping them or hurting them? What kind of message am I sending?

As an example: I don't like to be hit, and I don't hit my children, when they hit me what's wrong with saying "I don't want to be around people that hit me" and removing myself from that situation? Am I supposed to hang around and be hit, because I don't want to teach my kids that I'm only willing to give them conditional love?

Jason seems to be using the disengage, don't get involved as it's basis.


:

I say choose the option that feels right for you and your kid(s.) Children react differently to different tacks. No one can tell you for certain how your child will respond to something better than you can determine for yourself, right in your own house. So if you need to, give both tactics a try, and see what feels right for you.

Beside, if you ask me, leaving a difficult situation where your child is hitting you and otherwise not responding to your appeals, is NOT the same as withdrawing your love in fact. And there's no guarentee that your child will perceive it that way, either. After all, for example- when your child sees you come to pick him up, kiss him, and prepare him a great breakfast the morning after a blowout-- he'll certainly get the message that just because you woudn't tolerate his hitting you the night before, it doesn't mean you don't still love him. It just means you wouldn't tolerate being hit.....And if my husband chooses to leave the room because he doesn't want to argue, no I don't think he doesn't care. And I don't think he's withdrawn his love.

JMO,

Faith

[Ayala Eilon]

Well, this thread started with reading books that give contradictory guidance. I like to suggest yet another book, one that does not preach any one dogma, but open you to find your own. Yet it is very clear. It is about love and about finding your way of being loving. I agree with aira about not abandoning children who are obviously in need of love and care in their most difficult moments. The book I refer to, which I have mentioned before is, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves.
The subtitle touches on these issue: Transforming parent-child relationships from reaction and struggle to Freedom, Power and Joy.
And it lives up to it's promise: when you are annoyed, that's your reaction. It has nothing to do with the child. You become unavaliable (Jason) for your own sake and limitation. How would you like to learn to shed these limiations so you can feel at ease (rather than annoyed) unconditionally. In this book she also stresses that there is no such a thing as a "bad" behavior. That children do when they must do to express their emotional needs. Instead of stopping them or withdrawing support, you learn to understand the need behind the behavior. You take care of that, and the child has no more need to do whatever he/she was doing. It is so kind and loving. Look on Amaon at the review. You will want to read this one instead of the two you are reading (which I have read too and they are good, but not as great.)

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by aira

Well, the point I was trying to get at is that when we are hurting we need help. I see that my example was imperfect. But the essence was that children (people) don't hear that they are good but their behavior is bad when they are hurting and their only hope is walking away.

I think I was agreeing with you more than I conveyed
My point was that even if people can find fault with that particular example, it doesn't change the fact that leaving an upset child is counterproductive, and quite possibly will make them feel abandoned and overwhelmed.

OP, I think instead of leaving, if other options haven't helped the situation, that there is something that will help. You just have to be creative sometimes
Redirect in a way that honors the impulse. The impulse behind the hitting is a legit feeling/thought. It just needs to be expressed in a socially acceptable way. And physically keep yourself protected from being hit. Just don't leave the room to do so.
Someone said on here once that leaving the room because of a child's actions is giving them WAY too much power over you and your actions. Its too overwhelming for them to be responsible for you leaving- which is most likely NOT what they want.