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Anyone here know what happened in Finland? - Page 2  

post #21 of 36
Revamp, I engaged in a 'discussion' recently with an online fundamentalist group about circ. I can forward you the email that they replied to me with. Just PM me with your email address. It's very much about the Old Testament, as if Christians aren't supposed to follow Christ's teachings?? I find that confusing.
post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeosMama
Is Finland a Christian country? Many Christians here think that it's a religious requirement that boys be circumcised.
That is totally American phenomen. Fine example how cultural habit has influence to religion. Here in Europe all christian demonitions have always been strongly against circumcision. Catholic, Orthodox,Anglican, Lutheran, LDS, Pentacolist and so on.

All Scandinavian countries are mainly Lutheran.

Revamp, I get later back to you with statistics about Islam&jews. Busy day ahead.
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islay
At least we head the list of three advanced countries that have practised RIC in the past and either no longer do so (UK) or have drastically reduced the numbers to a trickle (Canada & Australia).

Shows it CAN be done.
That is totally true!

With America it seems to have become a good deal more engrained into their society and culture than it did in ours, but there is certainly some hope from our history.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeosMama
Revamp, I engaged in a 'discussion' recently with an online fundamentalist group about circ. I can forward you the email that they replied to me with. Just PM me with your email address. It's very much about the Old Testament, as if Christians aren't supposed to follow Christ's teachings?? I find that confusing.
Basically, all Christians need is the Sermon on the Mount. By definition, the Old Testament has little relevance to Christianity; though fundamentalists generally hold much store by it. There are so many denominations it can be confusing, but most do not include circumcision as a requirement.

Christopher
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islay
Basically, all Christians need is the Sermon on the Mount. By definition, the Old Testament has little relevance to Christianity; though fundamentalists generally hold much store by it. There are so many denominations it can be confusing, but most do not include circumcision as a requirement.
Paul speaks specifically about circumcision, his words say quite clearly it is not a neccessity at all.

Although...This is a fellow who said that women should be subservient and never speak in church. I suppose even an idiot can get some things right...
post #26 of 36
kxsiven - re: Lordi - all I could find at the Seiska site was an apology? Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or in the right place or they already took the picture down. Ah well.

My parents are Finnish immigrants & I grew up thinking that "nobody but Jews" circumsize routinely.

Do you think that the recent RIC reviews/ policies in Finland have to do with the influx of immigrants/ refugees from places where RIC is a cultural norm?
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saara687
Do you think that the recent RIC reviews/ policies in Finland have to do with the influx of immigrants/ refugees from places where RIC is a cultural norm?
That would be my guess.
post #28 of 36
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
Even if it did I think it is unnacceptable, the child should get the choice over their own penis decided by their own religion, or lack thereof.
THIS is my point precisely! I wouldn't want someone else imposing their religion on me, why should I impose mine on someone else? :
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treece
:

THIS is my point precisely! I wouldn't want someone else imposing their religion on me, why should I impose mine on someone else? :
Exactly!

Anyone arguing that circumcision being illegal would defy religious freedom is talking nonsense: it would serve only to protect the religious freedom of the person that the penis actually belongs to.

Besides, is the government not supposed to be secular?
post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saara687
kxsiven - re: Lordi - all I could find at the Seiska site was an apology? Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or in the right place or they already took the picture down. Ah well.

Do you think that the recent RIC reviews/ policies in Finland have to do with the influx of immigrants/ refugees from places where RIC is a cultural norm?
They took the picture down because Finns got so angry..there was a petition and in less than 24 hours there was almost 200 000 names in it, magazine backed down and took the picture away.

Story behind the circ review. In 2002 an African doctor visited here in Finland and made illegal circumcision to refugee boys at their homes. Many of the boys got very ill, some almost died. The goverment woke up by that time that there is such thing ... so goverment asked around what medical field and child wellfare field felt about the issue. It is recommendating that religious circ. should be done in hospitals so the dangerous home circs would not happen but doctors and hospitals refuse to do them.

The situation is at the moment that those refugees who want circ pretty much wait until they get to abroad to get it done or leave boys intact.

When I have time I try to translate the statement Finnish Medical Association gave.

As far as amount of Jews and muslims in Finland. This info is from year 2003. And it only includes those who are active, registered members in their religious group.

There are around 1300 - 1500 jews in Finland. Around 8000 muslims are actively taking part to their religious community(are registered members)but estimation is that there is around 15 000-20 000 muslims here. Most of them are Tatars who have been here over 200 years and who do not practise circumcision anymore.
post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxsiven
The situation is at the moment that those refugees who want circ pretty much wait until they get to abroad to get it done or leave boys intact.
Normally I am as liberal on refugees as it is possible to get but when it comes to this issue, whether the genitals in question belong to boys or girls, my stance is firm: if they leave the country to circumcise they do not get to return.

Good to hear that Muslims are ceasing to circumcise though! What about the Jews?
post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revamp
Good to hear that Muslims are ceasing to circumcise though! What about the Jews?
What I've heard most of them don't do it and the % of jews is very small anyway compared to muslims.

I was reading the statement from Finnish Medical Association. There was a chapter I would like to translate. T

"..According to finnish medical association it is wrong to do a risky operation that does not have any medical benefits, it is clearly against the doctor's ethics and doctor must have the right to refuse to do it.
Also the fact that child cannot give his opinion due to his age, is in conflict with basic medical ethics. It is not doctor's job to perform religious rituals of anykind. The Finnish Medical Association also wants to point out that ritual should be looked at in the light future, boys will grow up to men. Many men and international organisations are reminding that childhood circumcision is traumatizing and sexually harmfull operation..."


(Suomen Lääkäriliiton näkemyksen mukaan potilaan altistaminen riskejä sisältävään toimenpiteeseen, josta ei koidu terveydellistä hyötyä, on vastoin lääkärin etiikkaa ja lääkärin tulee voida kieltäytyä toimenpiteen tekemisestä. Myös se, että lapsi ei ikänsä puolesta voi antaa suostumusta toimenpiteen on ristiriidassa lääkärin etiikan kanssa. Lääkärin virkatehtäviin ei tule kuulua uskonnollisen rituaalin suorittaminen. Suomen Lääkäriliitto huomauttaa, että mietinnössä ei lainkaan tarkastella ympärileikkausta mieheksi varttuneen näkökulmasta. On syytä ottaa huomioon ne kansainvälisesti merkittävät liikkeet, jotka nostavat miesten omien kokemusten pohjalta lapsena tehdyn ympärileikkauksen esiin traumatisoivana ja seksuaalisuuteen haitallisesti vaikuttavana.)
post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxsiven
What I've heard most of them don't do it and the % of jews is very small anyway compared to muslims.
Most?

If true then that is brilliant news...

Quote:
I was reading the statement from Finnish Medical Association. There was a chapter I would like to translate. T

"..According to finnish medical association it is wrong to do a risky operation that does not have any medical benefits, it is clearly against the doctor's ethics and doctor must have the right to refuse to do it.
Also the fact that child cannot give his opinion due to his age, is in conflict with basic medical ethics. It is not doctor's job to perform religious rituals of anykind. The Finnish Medical Association also wants to point out that ritual should be looked at in the light future, boys will grow up to men. Many men and international organisations are reminding that childhood circumcision is traumatizing and sexually harmfull operation..."


(Suomen Lääkäriliiton näkemyksen mukaan potilaan altistaminen riskejä sisältävään toimenpiteeseen, josta ei koidu terveydellistä hyötyä, on vastoin lääkärin etiikkaa ja lääkärin tulee voida kieltäytyä toimenpiteen tekemisestä. Myös se, että lapsi ei ikänsä puolesta voi antaa suostumusta toimenpiteen on ristiriidassa lääkärin etiikan kanssa. Lääkärin virkatehtäviin ei tule kuulua uskonnollisen rituaalin suorittaminen. Suomen Lääkäriliitto huomauttaa, että mietinnössä ei lainkaan tarkastella ympärileikkausta mieheksi varttuneen näkökulmasta. On syytä ottaa huomioon ne kansainvälisesti merkittävät liikkeet, jotka nostavat miesten omien kokemusten pohjalta lapsena tehdyn ympärileikkauksen esiin traumatisoivana ja seksuaalisuuteen haitallisesti vaikuttavana.)
Trust you Nordic types to be progressive on this issue, a little like you are on just about everything else.

Very well worded extract there, thank you so for sharing. I found the original Finnish quite beautiful.
post #34 of 36
Quote:
At least we head the list of three advanced countries that have practised RIC in the past and either no longer do so (UK) or have drastically reduced the numbers to a trickle (Canada & Australia).
Does anyone know when the peak time of RIC was in Australia? When did it start to diminish?
post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nancymom
Does anyone know when the peak time of RIC was in Australia? When did it start to diminish?
I think its peak was shortly after the American peak, i.e. early fifties and into the sixties; the very time when the British dropped it like the proverbial hot potato. Fascinating.

I believe it began to diminish about 15 years ago or less.

This is all off the top of my head, trying to recall snippets of information I've read - so please don't take it as gospel!

Christopher
post #36 of 36
The peak time is correct.

Quote:
I believe it began to diminish about 15 years ago or less.
I think a little earlier, starting in the the early seventies.
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Mothering › Forums › Health › The Case Against Circumcision › Anyone here know what happened in Finland?