Can we talk about kindergarten? - Page 5

[aphreal]

This thread broke my heart. I did not read all the posts but enough to know that these kids are thrown into and expected to know things way early. 5 yrs old is still so young to have so much expected of you. You have your entire childhood to be sure you can add and read. Why the urgency?

For kindergarten with my 2nd DD all I did was start her with 'Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons" and a few addition problems. That's IT! No writing, no spelling, no phonics. She found the reading boring so we went ahead and bought LLATL blue (1st grade) and she did rather well with her beginner phonics. I had a baby shortly after so we dropped it for about 6 months and picked it back up when she was technically IN first grade. We finished it up and she now reads on a 2nd grade level (she just turned 7). She CAN however, read many words off the assessment list that range from 1st through 5th grade reading. She did well because she was not pressured and she was ready. I have her in Saxon math which tends to be a little advance.. and she thrived beautifully. We skipped alot of it because it was stuff she knew just by living with her family. So she is plenty ready for 2nd grade and not stressed. I think 5 is so young to be hounded and beaten down by the system to know everything. They are just kids. They have plenty of time to learn it. Just my 2c.

[wildmonkeys]

I just brought my son home from his last day of kinder in ps - they had a school wide picnic for students, families, and siblings with a DJ. It was a great time and it has been a great year for him. It was more academic than I expected, but they broke the kids into groups based on "readiness/interest" and ds learned a bunch and didn't seem stressed about the experience nor did my friend's son who turned 5 a few days before school started and is still not interested in reading at all. He made great friends and learned things I would not have thought to teach him and I don't think it is "sad" that he knows how to read and enjoys reading. Schools certainly should not prevent kids from following an interest in learning new things...be them academic or whatever folks on here think would be more appropriate.

Anyway, that being said I am THRILLED it is summer break. I LOVE having him home and can't wait to have extra time with him. I have missed him very much while he was at school despite the fact that he has been enjoying himself and that ds2 and I have spent so much time there with him.

Have a great summer everyone!
BJ
Barney & Ben

[stormchaser_al]

My kids go to public kindergarten here and I think the State requires the children to do too much. They forget that they are only children and they should work at their own pace since all children learn at different paces. The sad thing is the schools here are cutting out or shorten p.e, recess, breaks, and naps.

I do think the program should have a schedule and it should educational but also fun at the same time. I have a problem when the schools sends home homework for a kindergartener to do.

[ChristaN]

This discussion makes me wonder if my girls had reasonably decent K experiences b/c they both had the same teacher who is nearing retirement (e.g. -- she has been teaching for nearly 30 years). While she isn't the most challenging teacher in the world and dds were both academically probably able to do more than she expected, she also didn't put them in a pressure cooker. Perhaps it was b/c this teacher hasn't 'gotten with the game' of the new kindergarten experience.

What is ironic is that I find that my kids (and most, I would suspect) do much better academically when the teacher isn't pushing so much. It almost seems as if the schools are shooting themselves in the foot if their desire is to improve test scores by pushing these little people so much. My older one's test scores went up by btwn 2-4 grade levels last year (depending on the subject) with a teacher who was warm, mommy-like, and let her work at her own pace. While she has always tested "well" -- i.e. she's never been below expectations -- it is amazing what a nuturing accepting of differences type of approach can make.

If I wanted my kids to attend a military school, I'd send them there. Turning early educational experiences into some type of drill is short sighted at best. I have only seen that approach result in failure in the long-run and this is for all children from those who are struggling to the gifted kids. For early elementary students, a love of learning is much more important, IMO, than what grade level the child can read at.

[1xmom]

For early elementary students, a love of learning is much more important, IMO, than what grade level the child can read at.

Very well said. ITA and if you have a child who doesn't have that love for learning it is going to be hard for both parent and child. I am fortunate in that my child has always loved learning and loves books and reading. But I also know that not all children are like that, and all children learn differently and in different ways.

[hummingbear]

Originally Posted by hotmamacita

What are your thoughts on kindergarten? Whether you homeschool, unschool, or conventional school, do you think a curricullum is needed?

I haven't read the thread but had to share immediately about research which suggests that kindergarten curriculum and homework etc.... is connected to poor learning, especially for boys! I cannot talk more eloquently since the study is currently in the mail to me for further reading.

The book "Unconditional Parenting" also has thoughts about what truely motivates us human beings.

[mommy68]

I didn't use a curriculm with my son until 2nd grade and he was homeschooled. I did buy Hooked on Phonics when he was 5 and he was reading by age 5 1/2, but that was it. It was mostly phonics and workbooks and fun, hands on stuff until grade 2.

Around here in the private/public schools the homework that is sent home for a kindergartner is usually something extremely simple and something the parent can usually either do with or 'for' them anyway, so I don't see a big deal with it.

[mommy68]

Originally Posted by mamajody

They are going to present me with her "assessment" portfolio next week so I can review it and attend a parent conference on it! Hello, she is 2! Hopefully the waldorf homeschool playgroup will get off the ground and we can be among sane people again.

Not all preschools are like this. there are others out there you could switch your child to possibly? I don't think waldorf is the only option in most areas. We have a lot of really great preschools in our area that don't focus that much on academics.

Although, I have to say I'm glad my 4 yr old daughter is being taught her ABCs and numbers and learning how to write her own name. She is very hyper and highstrung unlike her older brother and benefits greatly from the interaction with other children all day. She also enjoys learning and is at a great age for absorbing this information that is taught to her in a fun way. I'd seriously be wondering why ANY preschool isn't atleast teaching that much. In fact, if I were 'paying' to send my child somewhere I would expect it pretty much. That's what all children at the age of 3-4 should be in is a "pre-K" class just to help them get ready so they aren't behind at age 5 (or so I thought).

[Mary-Beth]

I've basically just decided to homeschool at least for a while.
My dd1 is 4 and the school I was most interested in was very different than schools described here. They mix ages somewhat. The first class is a pre-k/k mix. No homework- even up through 4-5th grade. Like the other schools however, it is full day. I just don't like that K is full day and I didn't want to send her to pre-k. I want to go her pace and follow her interests so she's learning what she's most motivated to learn. Hopefully I'll find a good hs group to keep her really connected to other children.

[JenniferH]

My daughter had homework every day in Kindergarten, but she was ok with it. She also had homework every day in 1st grade, but for some reason she LOVES school work.

She's being tested tomorrow for the same gifted program (MERIT) I was in in 2nd - 6th grade so I'm hoping that will get her out of the regular school grind. They do a more creative curriculum and learn in different ways than the regular classrooms. She's been so bored the past two years.

I know a lot of the reason she's done so well is because she learns a lot at home. Some of the other kids are not so fortunate. Only 50 students out of 700 1st graders qualified for MERIT this year. I know a lot of the problem lies with the parents not giving a damn, but also with the school. They have to teach to the slower students and the ones who are able to grasp a concept the first time are not really learning anything new. I'm SO glad she's testing for MERIT, otherwise I'd be afraid of her being incredibly bored in a regular classroom.

In first grade this year she had a child in her class that would throw tantrums, chairs, papers -- whatever he could get his hands on. I honestly don't know why they wait until 2nd grade to funnel the special needs students to a different class. They have programs for the seriously disabled students from K up, but the ones who may have behavioral problems or may not function well in a normal classroom setting fall through the cracks and don't get a good start in their academic careers.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than to share my experience with the public school here. Overall I'm VERY happy with the teachers she's had. The elementary school is great, but with the higher grades it's a crapshoot.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by JenniferH

She's being tested tomorrow for the same gifted program (MERIT) I was in in 2nd - 6th grade so I'm hoping that will get her out of the regular school grind....
Some of the other kids are not so fortunate. Only 50 students out of 700 1st graders qualified for MERIT this year. I know a lot of the problem lies with the parents not giving a damn, but also with the school.

If you're truly talking about gifted children and not just bright kids who have been hothoused, 50 out of 700 sounds like a reasonable number if not an overidentification of gifted kids. "Gifted" is generally recognized as the top 2% (thus approx. 14 kids out of every 700) although many schools take the top 5% (35 out of your school's 700) b/c there just wouldn't be enough kids in the program otherwise.

I don't see a child being identified as gifted as reflecting on the parents or the schools doing their jobs correctly in any way. Every child can be encouraged to reach his or her full potential, but every child is not going to be gifted no matter how much time we put into teaching him/her. While the idea that we are all gifted is PC and seems to be popular in schools now a days, I only see it putting a lot of pressure on kids to achieve, achieve, achieve and stressing them out. Along with that, the gifted programs then wind up not meeting the needs of the truly gifted kids b/c they aren't recognized as being the truly different creatures that they are (all around, not just academic high achievers).

[almama]

Just finishing Kindy HS here. I don't think K's need any curriculum, but *I* needed something to make me feel I was making progress. We did Bob Books and Phonics Pathways for reading. It helped him in the beginning, but he is now soaring past my paltry attempts at methological progression. We did Handwriting without Tears because he needed to move forward with handwriting (was becoming an issue because his friends could write letters). We need to review more, but he does OK.

[LynnS6]

Welcome to the wonderful world of No Child Left Behind folks!! All this stupidity going down into pre-K is because policy makers have NO CLUE about child development, and the Bush administration has declared that the only valid measure of a child's learning is a test score. (Don't get me started on what they've done to educational research... apparently if it can't be researched like you research pharmaceuticals, it's not really research. No descriptive studies. And I was just at a meeting with a major educational research institution who told me flat out that the Dept of Ed will not let them publish research that doesn't fit 'what they want'.)

The truth of the matter is, most politicians, regardless of stripe are CLUELESS about education and child development.

Children are missing out on a LOT by being rushed academically. They are not learning to LEARN, they are learning to perform. They are not learning to like learning, they are learning to hate homework and be pressured to take more high stakes testing.

The curriculum is completely developmentally inappropriate -- lots of kids are getting labeled as 'behavior problems' who are just normal healthy kids who can't sit still for 4-5 hours at age 5. Some children aren't developmentally ready to ready to read until 7 or 8. Really. Nothing wrong with them. But they will be labeled as failures before they leave 1st grade.

Our local K demands that children be reading by the end of K in order to go into first grade. Thankfully, we have a lovely, Reggio Emilio based daycare program that our kids can go to for K (though it's going to break the bank -- we're going into serious debt to do this!). It is all day, but it's very, very play based and non-stressful. No homework. They go on weekly walks in the woods. They have a rest time after lunch.

We don't have the money to send them to private school for 1-5 (I'm OK with the middle school/high school options), so we're going to have to duke it out with the public schools about focus. But I won't have my kids go to a kindergarten with such high stakes. (Homeschooling is not an option right now, mostly because I have the full time job with the health insurance, and I don't think I could talk dh into doing it.) But we've struggled mightily with the decision to send them to our local school.

[1xmom]

My daughter had homework every day in Kindergarten, but she was ok with it. She also had homework every day in 1st grade, but for some reason she LOVES school work.

Sounds like my dd.

My dd's school is a magnet school and you have to test to get into that class. I also plan to have her test to get into that program.
I have a friend whose dd is gifted and has taken merit classes thru middle school, she had told me that is one of the reasons why she was okay w/her going to a ps. She told me the private school would not be challenging enough for her. And she is not really in any classes w/the mainstream kids so she does pretty well. She said her son OTOH she may have to consider putting in private school b/c he is not gifted and would fall into following the crowd.

I think it in part it depends on your child and not only what they can do academically, but how well they can handle peer pressure and whether or not they are followers or leaders.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Welcome to the wonderful world of No Child Left Behind folks!! All this stupidity going down into pre-K is because policy makers have NO CLUE about child development, and the Bush administration has declared that the only valid measure of a child's learning is a test score. (Don't get me started on what they've done to educational research... apparently if it can't be researched like you research pharmaceuticals, it's not really research. No descriptive studies. And I was just at a meeting with a major educational research institution who told me flat out that the Dept of Ed will not let them publish research that doesn't fit 'what they want'.)

The truth of the matter is, most politicians, regardless of stripe are CLUELESS about education and child development.

Children are missing out on a LOT by being rushed academically. They are not learning to LEARN, they are learning to perform. They are not learning to like learning, they are learning to hate homework and be pressured to take more high stakes testing.

The curriculum is completely developmentally inappropriate -- lots of kids are getting labeled as 'behavior problems' who are just normal healthy kids who can't sit still for 4-5 hours at age 5. Some children aren't developmentally ready to ready to read until 7 or 8. Really. Nothing wrong with them. But they will be labeled as failures before they leave 1st grade.

I totally agree. My children have been lucky enough to go to play-based kindergartens. However, because of NCLB, starting from last school year they, did have to "test" in kindergarten and now have to provide report cards, which IMO for kindergarten is a joke. Even though my [younger] children were in a great Waldorf inspired, arts integrated, multiple intelligences public school, they won't be going back next year. I am going to homeschool DD and DS will be in 1st grade in a private school.

It would be great if all these early academics and all these tests worked, but it is all to obvious they haven't done squat to improve the education of our children.

[wildmonkeys]

Sorry to double post on the same thread, but it is so weird to me to read some of this. We live a school district that has a history of testing well and a very high percentage of highly qualified teachers and I have heard from teachers and parents that they are not concerned if kids are not reading in K because many kids are not ready until later (I don't know about 1rst as ds just finished up K and I am not up on what happens in first grade yet : ) . OTH many kids are ready to read in K or are already reading at the start of K - they are excited about it and it comes easily to them. That is why they break them into many different reading groups - all kids are not the same and don't need the samething. Some kids would struggle with having reading pushed at them and other kids would not enjoy a day with no academic challenges. It is an interest conversation when looking at it from the perspective of the schools/teachers --- how can the schools win when so many people want so many different things? At one point ds received homework from kinder and I told his teacher he didn't want to do it and she said it didn't matter to her if he did - she sent it home because so many PARENTS WERE ASKING for homework.

Anyway, it seems that despite the horror of NCLB and increasing expectations in society that kids will be doing everything early experienced and sensitive teachers and parents realize that kids should be evaluated individually. Some need some more time before these skills kick in and shouldn't be made to feel behind whereas others are ready and embrace some learning these things and should have the option of pursuing them available.

Thanks for the interesting perspectives ladies,
BJ
Barney & Ben

[alisonbr]

HS my 6 year old

My 6 1/2 year old would be just finishing kindergarten if we had done PS. We homeschooled. K is not mandatory in MA, and our PS K is half day.

I bought Oak Meadow, but we ended up doing what I think of as education by conversation. We talk about what's going on, and what interests him, and find books and such to learn more (if he requests it, or seems interested). He makes up games to work on his math (not that he thinks of it that way). The other day he made lines on the floor and he and his brother threw paper airplanes at them and added up their scores. He understands multiplication. He's very strong willed, so he isn't always working on what I would like to see him working on -- for instance, I wish he would write more, and although he can read, he resists sitting down and reading a book (and generally, I don't push it). I've seen enough of what he does to have confidence that he will learn what he needs, and that eventually he'll get to the things he's not doing now (like reading books independently and writing). I read aloud to him -- right now his bedtime choice is Story of the World (ancient history). We're a TV family, and he's learned lots of math from Cyberchase. We have a good HS group, and he plays t-ball locally, so he gets to see his friends on a regular basis.

Anyway, just one more flavor of K. Choosing to opt out of PS was difficult, but I'm happy with where we are. More on my blog: http://www.everydaybest.blogspot.com/

Alison
Mama to three boys: 2, 4, and 6 1/2

[Nemmer]

Subbing. DS is 4 and I'm struggling with what to do for his schooling. He has some speech delays, so we've done speech testing. He hates testing of any kind -- has never been a show-it-off kind of kid. You know how parents often coach their toddlers to show off? DS would never do any of it. I've tried a couple homeschool pre-k worksheets with him, just to try to get an idea of where his pre-reading skills are, and he hates those too. I only try every couple weeks. I need to be better organized and get a homeschool routine in place if I'm going to do homeschool, but I'm just struggling with whether to have him go to the special needs preschool, and possibly kinder, to help with his speech. Sigh. Anyway, don't mean to hijack -- I'm just enjoying this thread.

[shoefairy3]

I am so terrified to send our DS#2 to kindergarten. He went to preschool last year and did "ok". Basically he hates to write on demand. I am stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. I know he needs a structured school setting, but we cant afford the private prekindergarten costs, but dont qualify financially for the public prekindergarten. So i am forced to send him to kindergarten (he turns 5 on sept 19th, so age-wise he is at a disadvantage) I am expecting that he will have to repeat kindergarten..which is fine with me b.c i dont want to push him, but i am afraid that the pressure of kindergarten this year will sour his thinking towards school. My first born was more academically ready for kindergarten IMO, and yet he still finished the end of the year at average-to-above-average. Here's hoping my Gabriel gets the same teacher as Jacy had b/c she was the best.
I'd think about HS-ing him, but with a newborn in the house i am afraid i wont be able to give him the "schooling" attention he needs. We still ahve a few months to think about it before any definate decsions are made.

[trinity6232000]

Originally Posted by shoefairy3

I am so terrified to send our DS#2 to kindergarten. He went to preschool last year and did "ok". Basically he hates to write on demand. I am stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. I know he needs a structured school setting, but we cant afford the private prekindergarten costs, but dont qualify financially for the public prekindergarten. So i am forced to send him to kindergarten (he turns 5 on sept 19th, so age-wise he is at a disadvantage) I am expecting that he will have to repeat kindergarten..which is fine with me b.c i dont want to push him, but i am afraid that the pressure of kindergarten this year will sour his thinking towards school.
<snip> (

My dd is turning 6 on Friday. I kept her in preschool an extra year so
she is starting Kinder this Fall. Academically she is on target or ahead
for her age group, but emotionally I felt she needed that extra year.
Not to be ready for Kinder, but just to be a kid. I felt that extra year
could benefit her all threw school. I would rather she be one of the
oldest in her class, than one of the youngest. My dd's nature is to
follow those older than she, and lead with those younger. It just made
sense.
From reading threw this thread I am so glad my dd is in the school
she is in. It's a small rural church school. They give so many choices
to the parents. In dd's last year of preschool you can choose 3 or 5
days a week. We did five day, and on those two extra mornings dd
got to play on the computer with a art program, play hand bells, and
had long gym periods. They made puppets and did a small play for
the parents on graduation day.
This coming Fall for Kinder you can go half a day or full day. If you
go full day the second part of the day is free play. My dd is a child
who craves school structure. So she is attending full day. I like that
we are given choices. I love how kids are allowed to be themselves
and not learning just to be tested. Plus the price is very reasonable.

I feel so lucky reading this thread. If I was in the area's where private
school is too much money and the public school was test happy I
would be HSing, but that would be a disservice to my dd who is
much happier in a school system.

Much love to all of those who posted.